Advice on New Intel Build

[Naxos]

Good Morning!

Its been a while since I have upgraded. In fact I'm still running a AMD 64 3200+. So as I see I'm due a significant upgrade.

Lots has changed since I was planning my last build and I would really value some input on my part selection.

System Use/Overclocking intentions/Other Requisite Questions:

I will be using this as my main system for work and gaming. I have another box I use as a multimedia system so that is not a major concern for this box atm. For work I use Dreamweaver, Photoshop CS3, and very minimally Sony Vegas. For gaming I mainly play World of Warcraft but casually like to play the latest and the greatest FPSs and RTSs. The monitor it will be plugged into is the 24inch Dell Ultrasharp.

Budget: As you can tell by looking at the parts, Price is not the #1 factor in determining parts as I have budgeted some decent coin for this build (because I generally only build every 3 or 4 years), but I would hate to overpay on a part that I won't see any performance bump from - ie. just paying for a name. To put a dollar amount on it, lets say around $2000 for the box?

As far as overclocking goes - I have never done any overclocking before, but now most of the reviews make it seem so easy with automated settings for it in the bios now days. So I would like to overclock as long as it doesn't take extreme cooling or is too complicated. I understand you can easily get this chip to 3.0Ghz?

I will be buying parts from the US, I only plan to use monitor,keyboard/mouse from current parts.

Brand Prefrence: I know I want an Intel CPU with nVidia GFX

One of the things I would really love to accomplish in this build is to make an extremely quiet box - maybe I'm just getting old but the roar of the jet engines in my current computer just isn't doing it for me anymore. That being said if making it extremely quiet will compromise performance - I would prefer to bump up the decibels a bit.


System Components
CPU: Intel Core 2 Quad Q9300 any reason to spend more?
MOBO - Could use lots of help here because they seem quite expensive if I'm looking at DDR3 and Also I can't decided how important SLI is to me, I know I won't have install it with the new build but could be nice to add in later on when the system is getting tired?:

[*]Intel x48 - ASUS P5E3 PREMIUM/WIFI-AP DDR3 but not SLI but Expensive
[*]Intel x48 - ASUS RAMPAGE FORMULA DDR2, no SLI but more affordable
[*]nVidia 790 - ASUS Striker II Formula DDR2 with SLI but more affordable
[*]nVidia 790 - ASUS Striker II Extreme DDR3 with SLI but quite pricey

Memory - Should I go DDR2 or DDR3, Also 2GB Dual Channel or 4 even though 32bit Windows can't address all 4? Or is 3gb the sweet spot for 32bit OS? From reading reviews I feel buying DDR2 is buying an outdated standard? Also, if someone could walk me through the speeds on the memory i would be very appreciative ie. DDR3 1333 or DDR3 1800 because that seems to be where the price skyrockets:

[*]DDR2 - Very Cheap...why is this? : CORSAIR XMS2 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800
[*]DDR2 - Cheaper, lower speed? CORSAIR DOMINATOR 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066
[*]DDR2 - Expensive CORSAIR Dominator 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1800
[*]DDR3 - Cheaper OCZ Platinum 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600
[*]DDR3 - Expensive CORSAIR Dominator 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1800

Video Card: Still deciding between nVidia 9800x2 or the 8800GTX. Also, if I'm looking at these high end cards am I being too cheap on the Proc? My experience in the past has show me that my gfx card is usually one of the first things I have to upgrade because I usually go for a lesser model - but this build I would like to buy high end and protract the amount of time until i need to upgrade.
Looking at these 2 cards or the likes:

[*]9800x2 - BFG Tech BFGE981024GX2E GeForce 9800 GX2 1GB
[*]8800GTX - XFX PVT80FSHE9 GeForce 8800GTX Extreme 768MB

HDD: A quick, large capacity SATA drive. Unless RAID would be the way to go? Any Suggestions here?

Accessories
Case: LIAN LI PC-A59B or LIAN LI Lancool PC-K7B
PSU:Need suggestions. Want a solid, quiet, preferably modular PSU
CPU Cooler:Would like suggestions for a solid, quiet fan (No LEDS please )

Sorry for the long post, just wanted to try and get all the details on the page in one swoop...I'm sure I still forgot something. Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated.

THANKS!

 

[DSF]

Quick thoughts:

If you're not going SLI up front, then don't go SLI. I definitely wouldn't go DDR3 right now. The performance just isn't there for the price. Quantity of RAM is more important than speed of RAM, as long as your RAM is fast enough to be run 1:1 with the frontside bus.

The 8800GTX is not the best choice. The 8800GTS 512MB is almost as fast, less expensive, less noisy, and produces less heat.

I don't think Lian-Li cases are going to be particularly quiet. I don't own one, but that's what I've heard. I'd look at something more like the Antec P182 if you want a nice, quiet case.

As far as the PSU, you're probably looking at the Corsair 520HX or 620HX as the best quiet modular PSU.

 

[Roguestar]

No SLI, no DDR3, no Q9300, no 9800GX2 -> Single 8800GTS, 4GB DDR2, E8400 = I doubt you'd notice a difference in framerates between them, but I daresay your wallet would notice the hundreds of dollars you've saved.

Edit: use the $500 saved to buy a new graphics card a year and a half from now = win win win. Also, RAID would do nothing to improve gaming performance.

 

[Naxos]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I have been sold on non-SLI. Also I think I'm sold on non-Lian-li as well. The Antecs all seem to advertise they are very quiet. Newegg does not sell the one you listed anymore so I picked another one they do carry (see the wish lists). Also, I have read horror stories about bad PSU brands - the case comes with a Neowin 500W Modular PSU - should I still replace it with that Corsair (Really like the sounds of it)? Are there any other cases known for being quiet like the Antecs I might look at?

As far as the DDR3 goes I'm still thinking I might shell out the extra cash for a DDR3 setup. Here is my reasoning and you guys can tell me why it may be faulty or correct: DDR3 is a higher performance part. DDR3 will be the new standard. When I bought my current computer I went with AGP even though PCI-e was just then becoming available and I have regretted that for a while now because it became so hard to even find an AGP board to upgrade to that was worth a damn. Thats my thinking - let me know how it if I'm just way off.

Now here are 2 builds I mocked up on Newegg.

Here is the scaled down DDR2 build I put together:
https://secure.newegg.com/NewV...4%2F29%2F08+DDR2+Build
Comes in right under $1700

Here is the souped up DDR3 build I put together:
https://secure.newegg.com/NewV...4%2F29%2F08+DDR3+Build
Comes in right under $2000

A note about the 2 builds - Both are similar but the second one has some a mother board that supports DDR3 as well as 4gb of DDR3 memory. The GFX i put on there for fun to price it out - I might scale back that build by putting your recommended 8800GTS.

As far as the Mobo is concerned - the DDR3 board seems pretty expensive. Is it too much board for me, someone that MIGHT overclock their chip if it seems dummy proof enough? Are there any other suggestions out there for an alternative DDR3 board?

Now a question about the system ram. The second MoBo Asus P5E3 Premium Says: Memory Standard: Memory Standard DDR3 2000(OC)/1800(OC)/1600, FSB: 1600/1333MHz The OC means overclocked I assume? To get the 1-1 timings with the FSB I should at a minimum by DDR3 1600 in this case. Correct? Also - Even though windows can't address all 4GB of memory is it still worth it to get the 4 GB and get the benefits of Dual Channel or should I slap 3x1gb Sticks in and do away with Dual Chan?

Thanks so much guys. Sorry again for the long post - just like to make informed decisions. Also I'm still looking around for suggestions for the best cooling fan for the proc.

 

[Roguestar]

DDR2 is not to DDR3 as AGP was to PCI-E; DDR2 is still mainstream and will be for at least another year until a major chip revision comes out. DDR3 is a huge price markup for a tiny performance improvement, right now. You could go with a much cheaper P35 board (but still very reliable and good for overclocking) seeing as you're not doing SLI. What you could do would be get something like the Gigabyte P35 DS3C which supports both DDR2 and DDR3.

Replace the PSU with something by Corsair or PCP&C or Seasonic.

Get this RAM (DDR2): http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820231122

In terms of DDR3, 1600 is not the minimum at all, you can go lower than that. It's just listing what high speeds it supports. Stick with dual channel, by the way.

 

[Twsmit]

The benefits of DDR2 is the money saved. Run of the mill DDR2-800 is going for less than $75 and will allow a decent OC upto ~400mhz FSB running a 1:1 ratio. DDR2-1066 or DDR2-1000 is all you need for the vast majority of OCing and 4GB is only ~$125.

In a year or two if you upgrade to DDR3 on a new platform you're wasting what? $100 bucks? DDR3 is more than 3 times as expensive and will surely drop in price once it is mainstream. In fact I'm willing to wager that the combined price of DDR2 today plus the cost of DDR3 when you want to upgrade will be less than the cost of DDR3 today.

 

[Naxos]

Ok, I think you guys have successfully talked me down from the DDR3 ledge. Thanks for the feedback.

I'm going to play with a it a bit over the next day I'll toss up a more finalized build later and see what you guys think.

Thanks a lot, yall have given me a lot of stuff to think about.

 

[DarkRogue]

Could go for a P180.. I'm surprised the P182 disappeared from Newegg.

I personally wouldn't recommend the Raptor X, the Enterprise-level Raptor 150GB has the exact same specs and is cheaper. The drive itself is quite pricey per GB as it is, I don't think it's worth it to pay an extra $5 for a silly window on a HD you will hardly ever see.

 

[Naxos]

Originally posted by: DarkRogue
Could go for a P180.. I'm surprised the P182 disappeared from Newegg.

I personally wouldn't recommend the Raptor X, the Enterprise-level Raptor 150GB has the exact same specs and is cheaper. The drive itself is quite pricey per GB as it is, I don't think it's worth it to pay an extra $5 for a silly window on a HD you will hardly ever see.

Oh wow - Glad you caught that. I didn't even notice that! I certainly don't need a window in my HDD.

 

[Naxos]

Ok well I've read up and that p182 and p180 both look really nice. But the 182 is available on Amazon for a nice price and actually the amazon vendor is offering The P182 with the Corsair CMPSU-620HX PSU together for $282. Seems like a pretty nice deal. So I think I have settled on the case and PSU. Now to wrestle with the rest of it.


For the Motherboard P35 of X38/x48?

 

[chinaman1472]

What do you need that Rampage board for? Save yourself $150-200 and get a simple P35 chipset motherboard.
Raptors aren't that much faster than high density platter SATA hard drives just to let you know. You could get 2 Western Digital 640GBs for $220 + tax/shipping which would give you roughly the same space as your 150GB + 1TB hard drive combo and save yourself $150 bucks.

Those two alternatives will probably give no noticeable difference outside of benchmarks and you've saved $300-350.

 

[Naxos]

I think you're right. I think the Mobos I was looking at were well past anything I need. I have started looking at the p35s and found they suit my needs nicely.

As far as the Raptor drive - I'm kind of sold on it as using it as my system drive. I already own one and really like it. But I am going to tone the 1TB drive down to a 750gb i think to save 50 bucks or so.

Here is the build as I see it now - Note that I will be ordering the P182 from Amazon since Newegg apparently does not carry it anymore. But I put the P180 in there to help me judge price:
https://secure.newegg.com/NewV...%2F08+Finalizing+Build

 

[chinaman1472]

Necessary to have 2 DVD drives? If you need it then okay. You can save some cash if you get DDR2-1000. The difference between 1000 and 1066 won't give you that much more overclock, if you can make it that far.

A lot of people try give the best price/performance parts for the machine, including myself. TechReport's latest hard drives test show that the Raptors (except the new VelociRaptor) aren't that much faster, or even faster, than high density platters. So if you're sold on that Raptor because it's a lot faster, you might want to reconsider. http://techreport.com/articles.x/14583/3

 

[Naxos]

Originally posted by: chinaman1472
Necessary to have 2 DVD drives?

Probably not - but I have been frustrated in the rare cases that I need to copy a disc...imaging the disc and all. Its just so simple to do a Nero disc to disc copy. But you are right I might scale back there. Also they are pretty darn cheap imo. And Price for the current system isn't my top concern..its actually coming in lower than I was budgeting for, which is great!

Originally posted by: chinaman1472
You can save some cash if you get DDR2-1000. The difference between 1000 and 1066 won't give you that much more overclock, if you can make it that far.

I think I need more help here with the DDR2 speeds. The motherboard supports 1066 and that will put the FSB at 1333MHz out of the box? As far as overclocking goes I have never OC'd before but I may try it out with this build - I just have always been daunted by it. So I'm kinda of piecing this together under the assumption I will not overclock - but if i decide to I would like to have the room to do that. In other words - I want it to run at stock at as high a performance as possible without OCing.


Also - Thank you very much for the help - This is the most helpful forum I have found in terms of assisting with a new build.

 

[Naxos]

Originally posted by: chinaman1472
A lot of people try give the best price/performance parts for the machine, including myself. TechReport's latest hard drives test show that the Raptors (except the new VelociRaptor) aren't that much faster, or even faster, than high density platters. So if you're sold on that Raptor because it's a lot faster, you might want to reconsider. http://techreport.com/articles.x/14583/3

I must be trolling too much because I didn't catch your edit the first time through. Hmmm...certainly interesting. I'll go back and look at them and see what I actually could save - any of those in that review that stand out other than the VR? One thing (after seeing the article) that I'm toying with is skipping the Raptor now, buying a 750gb drive and then potentially upgrading to the VR down the road if I do indeed find I want a faster drive...but knowing me I'll be perfectly happy with the 750gb drive AFTER the system is put together - its all this nit picking and spending money before hand that really gets me all hyper performance oriented.

 

[chinaman1472]

Memory speeds are multiplied by 2. FSB speeds are multiplied by 4. The specifications on the motherboard is the fastest speeds it can handle. You want to run it 1:1 FSBRAM ratio, so you want the memory speed to match the FSB speed.

1066 will give you a maximum OC of about 4GHz, 1000 will give you about 3.75GHz.

 

[Twsmit]

Running memory with a 1:1 ratio is usually preferred to running asynchronous. To achieve a decent OC on air, one does not actually need very fast ram. Running stock all you would need is DDR2-667 ram!!!

Remember memory speed = real FSB * 2 or take Intel's marketing FSB and divide by 2 aka 1066mhz quad pumped FSB. For instance on my system I have a processor @ 400mhz FSB using DDR2-800 in a 1:1 ratio. ie. 400 * 2 = DDR800.

1:1 Ratio quick list....

200mhz FSB * 2 = DDR400
333mhz FSB * 2 = DDR667
400mhz FSB * 2 = DDR800
500mhz FSB * 2 = DDR1000
533mhz FSB * 2 = DDR1066
600mhz FSB * 2 = DDR1200

Essentially all this ultra high performance ram has been designed to run asynchronously (or at ridiculously high FSB with low CPU multipliers), because most motherboards or processors will crap out between 400-500mhz FSB speed. (or at the very least require extra voltage/cooling to get at high speed) DDR2-1000 is probably the sweet spot if you plan on running 1:1 and want almost unlimited headroom, because honestly if this isn't your number one passion in life I'm doubting you will be trying for every last ounce of performance with your OC.

IMO anything higher than DDR2-1066 is chasing diminishing returns, and this includes all DDR3, and I feel that DDR2-1000/1066 is probably the sweet spot right now for anyone but truly hard core OCers.

 

[Naxos]

Originally posted by: Twsmit
Running memory with a 1:1 ratio is usually preferred to running asynchronous. To achieve a decent OC on air, one does not actually need very fast ram. Running stock all you would need is DDR2-667 ram!!!

Remember memory speed = real FSB * 2 or take Intel's marketing FSB and divide by 2 aka 1066mhz quad pumped FSB. For instance on my system I have a processor @ 400mhz FSB using DDR2-800 in a 1:1 ratio. ie. 400 * 2 = DDR800.

1:1 Ratio quick list....

200mhz FSB * 2 = DDR400
333mhz FSB * 2 = DDR667
400mhz FSB * 2 = DDR800
500mhz FSB * 2 = DDR1000
533mhz FSB * 2 = DDR1066
600mhz FSB * 2 = DDR1200

Essentially all this ultra high performance ram has been designed to run asynchronously (or at ridiculously high FSB with low CPU multipliers), because most motherboards or processors will crap out between 400-500mhz FSB speed. (or at the very least require extra voltage/cooling to get at high speed) DDR2-1000 is probably the sweet spot if you plan on running 1:1 and want almost unlimited headroom, because honestly if this isn't your number one passion in life I'm doubting you will be trying for every last ounce of performance with your OC.

IMO anything higher than DDR2-1066 is chasing diminishing returns, and this includes all DDR3, and I feel that DDR2-1000/1066 is probably the sweet spot right now for anyone but truly hard core OCers.

Extremely helpful. Thanks so much. Just to clarify. So I could run 1:1 with the FSB at 1333 with just DDR666.5 (if they made it)? Correct? and if i want to do some easy air cooling OCing go ahead and buy 1000 or 1066?

 

[b4u]

So how is your rig right now?

I'm planning on creating one myself, but I'm planning on keeping it under 1000$ (here for discussion).

<edit>
Side Note:
If I had 2000$, I would prefer to buy a new budget rig every 2 years, than to splash it all on a machine and make it work for 4 years to fulfill my investment-conscience I would bet the second budget computer, bought after 2 years from the original, would kick the extreme machine I would originally buy with 2000$.
</edit>

 

[ther00kie16]

I'm kinda surprised it hasn't been mentioned. The q6600, which can be had for much less, can be overclocked as high as the q9300. Also with those parts, the 520hx is plenty and can be had for <$100 ($80 after rebate, even less with googlecheckout) at buy.com.

 

[chinaman1472]

Originally posted by: Naxos
Extremely helpful. Thanks so much. Just to clarify. So I could run 1:1 with the FSB at 1333 with just DDR666.5 (if they made it)? Correct? and if i want to do some easy air cooling OCing go ahead and buy 1000 or 1066?

Yes, you'd only need DDR2-667 to run it at 1:1 with no overclocking.

Easy overclocking could be DDR2-800. (800/2 = 400)
Heavy overclocking should be DDR2-1000. (1000/2 = 500)

Since Q9300 runs on a 7.5x multiplier, you take 7.5 and multiply it by the actual RAM speed to get your "maximum overclock" (before you overclock the RAM).
7.5 x 400 = 3000MHz
7.5 x 500 = 3750MHz
7.5 x 533 = 3997.5MHz

In all reality, DDR2-800 is probably the best spot for most (in terms of utility), but DDR2-1000's extra headroom is always nice and is usually within $10-15 of DDR2-800.

 

[Naxos]

Sounds like DDR2 1000 should be good enough for me since I'll really just be looking into "easy overclocking" and I can splurge for the headroom

As far as my build so far - its not going to come in sub $1000. I'm looking around 1600-1800 at the moment. I'll post a link when I tweak it a bit more, you guys have been extremely helpful but I'm still reading lots of reviews and what not and trying to refine some of my parts.

In regards to the Q6600 - I'm going with the newer 45nm chip because for one thing I don't know that I will be overclocking it. And I'm looking to keep this case as cool and quiet and I'm hoping since the new chips run cooler and use less power I'll be able to keep the whole thing whisper quiet. Also, thanks for the tip on the PSU. I would love to keep everything from newegg, but that just might not be able to happen, Ill have to look at shipping costs. Thanks!

 

[Roguestar]

This link might come in handy, then:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820231145

 

[Naxos]

Originally posted by: Roguestar
This link might come in handy, then:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16820231145

Very Nice! Thanks!