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advice on 401k investment.

serialkiller

Golden Member
Im 23 and these are my options.

****updated with 3-5-10 year****

  • Pre-Mixed Portfolio
Pre-Mixed Portfolio Income Fund ? ? ?
Pre-Mixed Portfolio 2015 Fund ? ? ?
Pre-Mixed Portfolio 2025 Fund ? ? ?
Pre-Mixed Portfolio 2035 Fund ? ? ?
Pre-Mixed Portfolio 2045 Fund ? ? ?
  • GIC/Stable Value
Stable Value Fund 3.76 4.33 ?
  • Bond
Bond Fund 5.82 7.58 ?
  • Balanced
Balanced Fund 14.01 11.84 ?
  • Large U.S. Equity
Large-Cap Value Fund 17.11 ? ?
Equity Index Fund 12.29 -1.93 ?
Large-Cap Growth Fund 17.11 ? ?
  • Small U.S. Equity
Small-Cap Value Fund 22.07 17.65 ?
Small-Cap Growth Fund 14.14 -0.49 ?
  • International
International Fund 17.94 2.36 ?
  • Stock
Common Stock Fund 16.43 -2.50 ?

****************************
Not too familiar with the stock market so I dont know whats good or what not, so thats why I turn to the helpful people at AT. Thanks in advance for any input.

George
 
see what kinds of fees/expenses they may charge. Does your company match your contributions? I personally would have a balanced portfolio that has a mix of stocks/bonds/insurance. Best of luck.
 
returns for the past 5-10-life on those? generally, the idea is to have a riskier portfolio when you're young, as you have longer to ride out bumps. more risk sometimes has higher returns
 
I dont think there are any fees/expenses. They match up to 4% so that is what I am doing now.. since I cant afford anymore then that (just graduated college).

When doing a search I came across another thread similar to this but different options... majority of the people there said to do 80%-100% in stocks while young.

Well like I said I am not too familiar with the whole stock game so any input will be appreciated. Thanks everyone!
 
need more info...

what specific funds are those? historic returns for 3-5-10 years?

Also, is this your ONLY retirement savings? (are you also doing IRA's/Roths/??)

From the companies I've been at, the 401(k) offerings are usually very weak -- so I go "conservative" with them and use my Roth-IRA's to go riskier. But I'm much older than you. Usually the younger you are the riskier you can afford to be.
 
Yes, bonds are for when you are older. At 23, 100% stcok makes sense for your 401k. But also try to set up an INGDirect.com account and build up at least 1 month of living expenses in savings to start.

Insurance is something to get when you have a family, but only for the death benefit not as an investment. 99% of insurance / annunity "investments" are overpriced scams designed to rack up commissions for the unethical weasels selling them to you.
 
Large Equity fund. A good blend of risk and reward for someone thats 23. If you can, mix in some small equity fund as well.
 
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: chowderhead
I personally would have a balanced portfolio that has a mix of stocks/bonds/insurance.

Why?

for me, I looked at the 5-10 year rate of returns. All of the funds I can invest in have very low expense ratios. The bond fund has returned slightly lower then the equity fund but it didn't take a bath within the last five years. I looked for a balanced fund that has a mix of equities, bonds and insurance company contracts (not life insurance) and treasury inflation-protection Securities. A pure equity fund can go up and down and though I have a long ways to go before retirement, I think a balanced portfolio provides a high rate of return but lower risk.
 
> Equity Index Fund

Is this based on the S&P 500 or some other index? if S&P 500 it's a good fund to put about 50% of your contributions into.

For the others, the names alone are only a little info, we'd need to know the fund company and if possible a link to the prospectus.
 
Originally posted by: chowderhead
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: chowderhead
I personally would have a balanced portfolio that has a mix of stocks/bonds/insurance.

Why?

I think a balanced portfolio provides a high rate of return but lower risk.

What is your actual return?

What do you consider a high rate of return?

What do you benchmark your performances on to make the claim that it has a high rate of return but lower risk?
 
Using any form of historical data, the more mixed your portfolio, the better your rate of return and the lower the risk. Thus: diversify, diversify, diversify.

You want a little of everything. You want a little large value, a little large growth, a little medium value, a little medium growth, a little small value (avoid small growth at all costs - highest risk and lowest average return). You want some foreign and some domestic. You also want some bonds (yes at your age, you want some bonds).

Ideally, you'd have about 40% foreign, but it is likely that those other funds contain some forein stocks. Ideally, you'd be about 20% bonds. Historically a 80% stock / 20% bond mix has outperformed virtually any other investment strategy ever created. You can vary a bit from those numbers without much harm. For example, a 90% stock/10% bond mix may work quite well at this point.

What I started out with is like this:
20% large growth fund.
20% large value fund.
20% small value fund.
20% small foreign fund (remember the other funds have some foreign, so I was near 40% foreign).
20% bond fund.

Look at something like that mix. Don't just blindly buy funds though. Look at the fees and the historical return. It is impossible for one fund to consistantly beat the average market. But it is possible to consistantly do worse than the market. You don't want to invest in a poorly managed fund that is consistantly worse.

William Bernstien is a wonderful author with all the historical data comparisons. He writes some books which are heavy in math and some which aren't. Spending one evening reading a book of his may be very valuable considering the amount of money you will be investing.

Note: what funds you buy now isn't that important. Even if you do crappy the first year, you'll lose next to nothing since you'll have next to nothing invested. What is more important, is to rebalance your funds about once a year. Sell a part of the funds that did well, and use that money to buy the funds that did poorly. Thus, you get back to your original percentages that you choose. This way you are always buying low and selling high. That is the best way to maximize the likelyhood of you doing well in the long run.
 
Thanks for all the help guys, I think what Im going to do is diversify everything but lean more towards the riskier side since im young... hooray?
 
Now I'll add a little opinion that isn't based on historical tests. Stocks are near a 4-5 year high. Thus, considering your political beliefs you might think stocks are going to be going up or leveling off their 4-5 year high. If they level off or sink a bit, you might be well off with a little cash. I'm really considering putting my next monthly contribution into money market funds as a little insurance against the market falling. That is one more diversification to think about. Will you get a great return in a money market fund? No. But you'll get a guaranteed small gain.
 
Originally posted by: dullard
... If they level off or sink a bit, you might be well off with a little cash. I'm really considering putting my next monthly contribution into money market funds as a little insurance against the market falling. ...
I do this now with my 401k, because the funds I can choose from are not great and I expect to be moving the money to a Rollover IRA in a few years.

At that point I'll pick a few Vanguard index funds (large, small, world) and let the money sit for 20+ years.
 
If that's all the info you've got, I'd probably split evenly between Large-Cap Value, Small-Cap Value, and International given your age and my personal belief that stock prices are generally high.
Bonds are a little trickier: "total return" stats are obscuring the "yield" -- which makes up a substantial portion of a long-term-holders return. Yields are pretty low right now, imo, so I'd be wary of a bond fund without knowing the underlying debt quality and yield, especially at your age.

Anyway... if you have specific ticker-symbols, you could look them up at morningstar or various other investment sites to get "professional" opinions about them.

Good luck... and :thumbsup: for starting early. The more you can sink into it, the better you'll be later... probably.
 
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: chowderhead
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: chowderhead
I personally would have a balanced portfolio that has a mix of stocks/bonds/insurance.

Why?

I think a balanced portfolio provides a high rate of return but lower risk.

What is your actual return?

What do you consider a high rate of return?

What do you benchmark your performances on to make the claim that it has a high rate of return but lower risk?


Our equity fund has returned 147% over 10 years with a 9.47% Annualized ROR. However, the past five years, it is down -11.13% with a annualized ROR of -2.33%. This year, the fund is only 0.36% though its 1 year is +10.25%. They must have invested in energy or (bio)technology stocks to get this much volatility.

Bond fund is up 138% over 10 years with a 9.05% annualized ROR. The past five years has been up 47.16% with an annualized ROR of 8.03%. One year is up 6.78% with a YTD rise of 2.43%. It has not lost money!

Our newish balanced growth fund (65% equity 30% bonds, 5% rest) is up 9.3% over 1 year. For me, it is a matter of having a diverse fund that will grow over time regardless of market conditions. That is what I am invested in though I have money in the other funds as well.


Edit: we have some other funds but they have higher fees or lower returns i.e. savings or money market funds.
 
Can you put the (5 letter) FUND names on your list? Your basic (asset allocation)diversification is Large Cap / Small Cap / Foreign / Bonds; something like 40/30/20/10 may be suitable for you.
You're smart to do at least the company match. Remember that noone ever retires thinking that they invested to much money when they were younger. The sooner you start the better. Good Luck to you!
 
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
> Equity Index Fund

Is this based on the S&P 500 or some other index? if S&P 500 it's a good fund to put about 50% of your contributions into.

For the others, the names alone are only a little info, we'd need to know the fund company and if possible a link to the prospectus.

The S&P index funds have outperformed 90% of all other funds year in and year out since the inception of the S&P500. Always a favorite to invest in.

:thumbsup:

Oh, and :thumbsup: to the OP for being the young and smart investor! 😉
 
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
> Equity Index Fund

Is this based on the S&P 500 or some other index? if S&P 500 it's a good fund to put about 50% of your contributions into.

For the others, the names alone are only a little info, we'd need to know the fund company and if possible a link to the prospectus.

The S&P index funds have outperformed 90% of all other funds year in and year out since the inception of the S&P500.


I'd like to see your evidence supporting that claim.
 
Originally posted by: dirtboy
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
> Equity Index Fund

Is this based on the S&P 500 or some other index? if S&P 500 it's a good fund to put about 50% of your contributions into.

For the others, the names alone are only a little info, we'd need to know the fund company and if possible a link to the prospectus.

The S&P index funds have outperformed 90% of all other funds year in and year out since the inception of the S&P500.


I'd like to see your evidence supporting that claim.

Sorry, it was between 85% and 95% depending on where you look. I've heard as high as 90...

I've heard this on CNBC for years.

Click me!
Index Funds
Anyway, the long and the short of it is that the index outperforms 85 percent of actively managed mutual funds. This is an argument for buying a dartboard portfolio or, if you don't like the volatility, an index fund. One of the first companies to offer these funds was Vanguard. I have been a Vanguard customer for many years and can't think of anything they could have done better.
Besides getting a higher average return, there are many other good reasons to invest your money in index funds. The first is psychological. When I had individual stocks, every time a stock went up, I attributed it to luck. Every time a stock went down, I attributed it to idiocy on my part. I felt dumber and dumber with every passing year because I ignored the stocks that went up and focussed on the ones that dived. Some Wall Street types have the opposite psychology: they only remember their winners and hence come to think of themselves as Einsteins after five years. Whatever your psychology, there is a certain inner peace to be achieved by forgetting about your money.

Another reason to index is to free up time to make more money. In every office there is at least one sorry loser checking the market every ten minutes, going home at night to read financial reports, running charts, and buying software to manage his complex portfolio. If he were a managing a $10 billion mutual fund, perhaps this effort would be worth it. But to try to beat the index by 2% with a portfolio of $50,000? That's $1,000 extra/year. Even assuming that he can get that extra 2%, he would have earned far more per hour working the night shift at the local 7-Eleven. Your time is valuable. If you really must be greedy, then be greedy and smart and take a consulting job. Or enjoy the extra time with your friends and family. Don't waste it trying to beat the market.

I have oversimplified things a bit here. For example, even if you believe the Efficient Market Hypothesis, there are stocks that are inherently more volatile than others. E.g., a high-tech company will go up more in a market boom and go down more in market bust than will a utility. In some sense, both are "worth their price" but one or the other might be a better buy for you because of your level of risk aversion. If you really want to understand this stuff at a deep level, read A Random Walk Down Wall Street and then Principles of Corporate Finance by Brealey and Myers. The latter book is the textbook used in many advanced finance course taken by MBAs. An MBA student will spend the entire term going through the book and doing problems, but if you have a standard MIT freshman math and science background, you can read the whole thing in a night or two.

If I haven't convinced you to stay away from Wall Street esoterica, here are a few things I've learned through bitter personal experience and/or reading the above books...

Click me #2


(Between 85% and 95% of mutual fund managers underperform the S&P500, depending on who's doing the counting.)

Active vs passive (index such as SP500) funds.

Click me!

The largest and most well-known index fund is the very first index fund, the Vanguard S&P 500 Index Fund. This fund, started by the Vanguard Group, nearly matches the returns of the Standard & Poor's 500 Index, and over the last ten years it has beaten the performance of over 90% of all mutual funds. Many other mutual fund companies now offer S&P 500 index funds.
 
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