adam and eve incest?

[HombrePequeno]

<< I do not see how it PROVES that God created anything or even exists. It is an account of people that believe that is the case. By the same logic, God is playing poker with Buddah and Vishnu right now. >>



The bible is right because it says it's right.

Of course the bible can't really prove much because Christianity is based on faith. If you don't have it you can't be Christian.

Oh yeah, Buddha isn't a god.

 

[djheater]

I just wated to pop a few things in.

There are many misconceptions involving evoltution. Evolution is closely tied to natural selection. It does not happen all at once and there is no necessary rhyme or reason to it (by human standards at least what God thinks I think we can safely say remains a mystery).

a mutation may occur within a ember of a species that allows that member to survive and reproduce more successfully than other members of the species (now that's not to say that this mutation won't eventually cause the being cancer and kill it but as long as it lives to reproduce it's contributed to evolution and survival of the species) if the mutation is beneficial and the being successfully reproduces it passes the genes for that mutation on to its children and whichever ones of them show this mutation survive better than their siblings and on it goes.

The idea of species wide simultaneous mutation is rather new and unproven but reallllly interesting don't you think.

 

[Rakkis]

I know he's not. I was just saying names to include a lot of faiths and demonstrate that God isn't the only big fish in the sky if the same logic applies equally to all good people of Middle Earth.


>> The bible is right because it says it's right.

My point exactly : )

 

[Jeff7]

I guess Eve wasn't technically Adam's sister; more like a female clone I guess. But let's just assume they weren't related. Their kids would have either other siblings, or their parents (Adam and Eve) to procreate with. Either way, sumthin's goin on there that God has rules again.
A loophole that early in the Bible; isn't it great?

 

[djheater]

Wait, I just finished reading the thread.

OK... people who believe in creationism are trying to understand why incest didn't destroy the species?

If God (the omniscient, omnipotent one) made the heavens and the earth and all life in the universe don't you think he would have thought about incest.... maybe he just turned it off for a while in order to populate the Earth.

Here's a question... Cain i scast out of Eden and sent to live with the tribes of the earth.... where'd they come from?

 

[Rakkis]

Hmm.. didn't mean to go off topic. Just clear a few misconceptions.

Getting back to Adam/Eve.

If you follow the logic as written, some incest was technically going on. However, as someone already mentioned. Incest was not prohibited until much later on. So the same ethical implications that we have today did not apply at the time.

As far as the medical implications go, if you believe in a biblical interpretation of earth's early history... if you take into account the relatively few generations that happened when people were living for hundreds of years... genetic errors would have taken a LONG time to accumulate enough for genetic problems to become an issue

 

[ImTyping]

psssst: wanna know a secret? Jesus had siblings. Older siblings. Check out the original old testament.
psst: wanna know another secret? Adam and eve NEVER EXISTED. But hey, don't let the facts get in the way of your beliefs...

Hot Chic: you are not an idiot. You are simply ignorant and misguided.

If evolution did not exist, we would still be able to use penicillin to kill almost any infectious agent. We have, thru the use of penicillin, evolved bugs that are not killed by penicillin. The use of antibiotics is one of the best examples of evolution occuring within our lifetimes. Another is the size of sport fish that are caught in the open ocean. The average size of individual sport fish has declined, not thru over fishing but because of the fact that generation after generation of the largest fish were caught and not thrown back; i.e., the smaller fish survived to breed more smaller fish. A five year old fish caught in the 1800's would be significantly larger than the same species of fish of the same age caught today.

But of course, you do not have to believe me...I am not the bible. Or your god.

 

[Mindliner]

<< I don't see why creation and evolution can't both be true. Say you believe in God, fine. He created the Earth, started the ball rolling, and made evolution possible, maybe tweaking things here and there throughout history. There's too much evidence for both theories to totally discount either. If you're a hardcore religious type, you should be the first one to realize that God was so powerful and smart that he made the earth with evolution in mind.
I'm not saying that's what happened, I just don't see why it has to be 100% one way or the other. >>




this is from my bible... so im just gonna type it out:

"Unfortunately, the Bible doesn't spell out in precise detail how human beings came to be. It does, however, give us some basic truths. FIrst and foremost, human beings, like all the rest of the univers, are creations of God. The Bible states that fact in the clearest of ters - God is mentioned performing some part of his creative work 31 times in Genesis 1 alone. The idea that we simply materialized out of nothingness is a logical and scientific impossibility. The FIRST LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS tells us matter can neither be created nor destroyed by natural causes. For the strict naturalist/evolutionist, this is an insurmountable dillemma. If only natural causes are involved, how did nothing turn into something? And then, how did that something become something personal - with intelligence, morality, personality, and spirituality? By chance? Impossible. Absolutely, scientifically, intellectually, and logically impossible. The Christian then turns to the supernatural: God did it."


and...

"This is the exact purpose behind the Bible. God put 66 books together to let his creation know the most important things about life, about what to do in certain situations, and especially about the extent of his love for them.
For some reason he chose to leave out dinosaurs, fursion, and gravity (among other significant discoveries). Instead he included stories of real people with real struggles," etc etc etc.

think of it this way: Creation cannot be proven by science, NOR can it be proven false.

 

[TheFirm]

ok in the bible what was Cain's sister name? and other's? just trying to see something

 

[Rakkis]

>> think of it this way: Creation cannot be proven by science, NOR can it be proven false.

I agree with that at least.

However, sciece is a construct of man. It is a sensible way to explain the world around and within us. You place as much blind faith into science as people who believe every word of the bible literally. Science, like the bible and other religious concepts is not absolute. They change over time. People learn new things. You should not be so short-sighted as to discount everything that hasn't been proven as something that CANNOT be shown to be.

 

[mithrandir2001]

<< You are not an idiot. You are simply ignorant and misguided. >>


That just sounds funny. It's like Bilbo Baggins' "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

EDIT: Oh, hell, this one's going in my signature for a while!

 

[Amigo2]

Hot chick,
Youve described the delimma that to evolve from "A" to "C" you have to progress thru intermidiary form "B" which is not viable in many cases. Evolution occurs, we can see it, both gradually (most common) and in large jumps (not only your woodpecker scenario but even within individual organism, there are may musculature structures etc that seemingly could not have developed if not by design as the intermediary form would have been useless if not altogether deadly.

Also, most people feel that evolution and creation are mutually exclusive, they're not. We are just scratching the surface of descovering the mysteries of the world around us. Who is to say that God didn't use evolution as one of the many tools to create us. Many people asumed he just SAID let there be light and there was light. That is almost undoubtedly a over simplistic way to describe what God did, no need to get technical in the bible, no one would (not then or now) understand it. The same thing goes for the creation in 6 days and a seveth day of rest, take that to mean a period of time. It's already stated elsewhere in the bible that a thousand years is but a day to God.

Also, I do feel kind of bad for all the athiests here. One thing I have come to see as a central characteristic of athiest is that they are very intelligent and knowledgeable. If they don't understand something it must not be. Also, their intellect leads to a lot of pride and the i know everything effect. I tell my 4 year old something, she doesn't have to understand it for it to be true.

Also, we were not given all the answers or the whole story in the Bible. Just what we needed at this point. It' is more than a lifetimes work to fully understand and more importantly live the priciples taught there. Would you give a kindergardner learning to read a book on physics? It would only confuse them and frustrate them. Can't run before you can walk.

And by the way, God made Adam and eve a lot more perfect than you or I. The life span back then was around 8 hundred years and they bore hundreds of children and that was without any medicine or any of the luxuries we enjoy today. One case of the flue could dessimate them if they weren't so strong. Same goes for abraham but in his age the effect of inbreading probably were starating to take effect. Incest was not made law until later.

Bottom line, people spend way to much time analyzing the bible and not enough time trying to live the lessons found there and be better people. This is not meant as a flame.

 

[ArmenK]

<< Also, I do feel kind of bad for all the athiests here. One thing I have come to see as a central characteristic of athiest is that they are very intelligent and knowledgeable. If they don't understand something it must not be. Also, their intellect leads to a lot of pride and the i know everything effect. I tell my 4 year old something, she doesn't have to understand it for it to be true.
>>


Amigo, it seems that you are feeling the "i know everything effect". Please leave your prejudices with your 4 year old and join the adults here in a discussion.

 

[zzzz]

<< sciece is a construct of man >>


so is bible

 

[Rakkis]

----- you posted -----
<< sciece is a construct of man >>

so is bible
--------------------------


Um.. yes. I know. I was saying he does not look at science as it shoudl be looked at. Science is not something static that answers all the questions there are or will ever be.

I am a scientist by trade (or will be soon enough anyway). However, hypocrisy goes both ways. Blind faith is blind faith... no matter where you aim it.

 

[Nefrodite]

first of all, just because you can't currently think of a way that something could have evolved doesn't mean that there isn't a way

as for the woodpecker, a species doesn't have to start off with everything your basically setting absurd requirements for a change. the first change didn't mean the bird could peck a hole out of a tree, it could be simply enough to get under the bark of a soft tree. no bird is dumb enough to peck until it kills itself, it would simply do what was possible. and if what was possible was enough of an advantage, that would be selected for. you don't go from no pecking to rat tat tat tat tat tat tat... in any one small change, thats absurd.





so two white ppl rapidly evolved into all the races of the world in say the 10 thousand years of the bible. if that nutty sh*t can happen, what sh*t happens over hundreds of millions of years? eh?

 

[Nefrodite]

The FIRST LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS tells us matter can neither be created nor destroyed by natural causes. For the strict naturalist/evolutionist, this is an insurmountable dillemma. If only natural causes are involved, how did nothing turn into something? And then, how did that something become something personal - with intelligence, morality, personality, and spirituality? By chance? Impossible. Absolutely, scientifically, intellectually, and logically impossible. The Christian then turns to the supernatural: God did it."

dude, not again, creationists keep using arguements that have zero merit. why? because it sounds good to the followers most don't understand the law really in the first place




The degree of thermodynamic disorder is measured by an entity called "entropy." There is a mathematical correlation between entropy increase and an increase in disorder. The overall entropy of an isolated system can never decrease. However, the entropy of some parts of the system can spontaneously decrease at the expense of an even greater increase of other parts of the system. When heat flows spontaneously from a hot part of a system to a colder part of the system, the entropy of the hot area spontaneously decreases! The ICR chapter states flatly that entropy can never decrease; this is in direct conflict with the most fundamental law of thermodynamics that entropy equals heat flow divided by absolute temperature.

There is no need to postulate an energy conversion mechanism. Thermodynamics correlates, with mathematical equations, information relating to the interaction of heat and work. It does not speculate as to the mechanisms involved. The energy conversion mechanism can not be expressed in terms of mathematical relationships or thermodynamic laws. Although it is reasonable to assume that complex energy conversion mechanisms actually exist, the manner in which these may operate is outside the scope of thermodynamics. Assigning an energy conversion mechanism to thermodynamics is simply a ploy to distort and pervert the true nature of thermodynamics.

The use and application of thermodynamics is strictly limited by the mathematical treatment of the basic equations of thermodynamics. There is no provision in thermodynamics for any mechanism that would overcome the laws of thermodynamics.

Thermodynamics does not deal with situations requiring human thought and effort in order to create order from disorder. Thermodynamics is limited by the equations and mathematics of thermodynamics. If it can't be expressed mathematically, it isn't thermodynamics!




http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo/creationism.html

 

[linuxboy]

God made Adam and Eve and had Cain and Abel (sorry if i misspelled their names) are we all incest? i Hope linuxboy or Elledan post here they know their stuff

Oh what the hey.

God made Adam. Adam made Cain. Right and so then Cain had to take a wife that was his sister. What is up with the sordid insest business? Good jeves, this book is full of crap. How dare you ! This is the Bible. You blashphemer will rot in hell ! Why I...I.... I... ought to develop a sense of humor is what. Why I'd never ! You should, it's fun. besides, everyone knows evolution is true. Why you heathen. ACCEPT THE WORD OF GOD. Screw you man, it's all about Darwin.

And so our two interlocutors parted ways never to speak of the matter again. Hehehe.

Please leave your prejudices with your 4 year old and join the adults here in a discussion.

Oh drats. I better leave then.

/me takes a bite of a banana. Mmmmmm tasty !


I am a scientist by trade (or will be soon enough anyway). However, hypocrisy goes both ways. Blind faith is blind faith... no matter where you aim it.

Oh say, Rakkis, weren't you the fellow who was getting a doc in molecular biophysics or something like that? I recall talking with you some time ago. How's that coming along?

man, this banana is really good. TheFirm, you give me waay too much credit. Plus, it seems that children aren't allowed in here. *shrugs*. Sorry mate. Good luck with this whole quest thing. Go forth and learn and all that jazz.

banana...


Cheers !

 

[Amigo2]

Amigo, it seems that you are feeling the "i know everything effect". Please leave your prejudices with your 4 year old and join the adults here in a discussion.

Sorry if that appears to be the case (about me) and if I struck a nerve or offended you. I thought I had joined the adults in a discussion.

Regarding my comment about athiests, It's just an observation and a generalization. But surely you cannot deny that well educated, intelligent people are largely athiests. My comment as to why the correlation of education and intelligence was based on my experiences and observations. Log onto any athiest forum and post a Christian viewpoint and they will quickly shoot holes in your ideas and then smugly comment on how foolish one must be to believe such out landish ideas.

So why the correlation mentioned above or are you arguing that most athiests are not of above average intelligence and education? One reason for this could be that they are smart enough to see inconsistencies with religion. Maybe they figure if a religion, its teachers, or its leaders are flawed, that God must not exist. Seems non sequetor.

There's another correlation, in uneducated societies and nations the people very easily and overwhelmingly believe in God (another generalization for arguments sake but largely true I think). Are they easily duped? Probably. But why do they so easily beleive things without fully understanding them or being able to prove them. I think the answer is humility.

Whether the things they believe are true or not is not relevant to this discussion. I'm not trying to argue that God exists. Just saying that in my opinion people who are smart and educated are less likely to believe something they don't understand or that goes contrary to their preconceptions than someone who is not as educated and maybe not as bright. Surely this is inarguable as it is pretty self evident. Now the reason why?

 

[petrek]

Well if you accept that God created Adam and Eve, as I do. Then it serves to reason that all humans currently in existence are related, which I believe. And as such no matter who you marry, you are related to that person, so technically all sex is incestious.
The Law that God gave through Moses, was that you are not supposed to marry a near kinsman (someone close to you, eg brother, sister, first cousin). Why, you ask? because if you marry someone who is closely related-gene wise to you-there is a much greater chance that disabled children will be the result, due to there being a greater chance of having the same mutated genes.
Now to continue with the recognition that Adam and Eve are responsible for all the variations in the human gene pool. It serves to reason than, that the vast gene pool we see in the human population today, existed during the early part of earth's history, and as well after Noah's flood. We can assume than, that what transpired during the early part of earth's history, and after Noah's flood would be akin to, say, two non closely related people getting married and having offspring. Essentially that, the variety of genes available at those times, to those people, are the same genes we see spread across the human population today.

 

[KK]

Can someone please put out a timeline for all this. Like when did the dinosaurs come in to play and when did this flood take place and where does this adam and eve event take place in relations to all this? I'm confused.

KK

 

[petrek]

KK, the biblical timeline (since we are discussing biblical issues) is as follows.

-Dinosaurs on the 5th and 6th day.
-Adam and Eve on the 6th day.
-Noah's flood approx 4350 years ago, or 2349 B.C. (or BCE as it is more recently referred to)

 

[Jeff7]

If you follow the logic as written, some incest was technically going on. However, as someone already mentioned. Incest was not prohibited until much later on. So the same ethical implications that we have today did not apply at the time.

So what, God just suddenly changes his mind about rules? Hmm, well, incest has been going on for a long time; think I'll make it evil now. They'll all adjust instantly of course. What if God decides to change the rules again now? Will he just clearly spell out the rules in the clouds? Or do we just guess.

The FIRST LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS tells us matter can neither be created nor destroyed by natural causes.
Have to say though, matter can be converted into energy, and vice versa. And assuming God has infinite power, he could in theory produce an infinite amount of matter.

The same thing goes for the creation in 6 days and a seveth day of rest, take that to mean a period of time
Why would an infinitely powerful being require rest? For an all-poweful being, creating a grain of sand would be no more or less difficult than creating a hundred Universes.

It's already stated elsewhere in the bible that a thousand years is but a day to God.
So what then, is Adam's age in years actually age*365,000?
Ah, here's the passage:
[2Pet 3:8.18] But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
So, when God made a period of light that lasted a "day" it was actually a thousand years then according to that. Uh...

And by the way, God made Adam and eve a lot more perfect than you or I
Sure didn't make them perfect enough to know what "Do not eat from this tree" means. He sure made them stupid. Oh right, he wanted us stupid. Why else make the Tree of Knowledge forbidden?

Why, you ask? because if you marry someone who is closely related-gene wise to you-there is a much greater chance that disabled children will be the result, due to there being a greater chance of having the same mutated genes
So what's this, God's backup device in case we didn't obey his laws? It's like he implemented this genetic disorder stuff because he knew (knowing everything) that we would disobey, so he made a more obvious sign? Sounds rather unusual for a "faith-based" God.

After Noah's flood - who was left that would not be closely related? The point of the flood was to wipe out everyone except Noah and his family. Flood's over. Everyone else is drowned. Noah's family has to resort to incest to get the species going again.

 

[Elledan]

The bible is an unreliable, biased piece of propaganda, just like the 'sacred' texts of other religions.

In fact, creation did occur, but it were aliens from another universe which created this universe and everything in it, including life. Sounds just as plausible as the 'god'-theory, no?

Adam and Eve never existed. Jesus is unlikely to ever have existed. Christianity is a rip-off of many other, much older religions.

Religions rely on blind faith. Blind faith is superstition.

--

Clear enough?

 

[petrek]

"-Why, you ask? because if you marry someone who is closely related-gene wise to you-there is a much greater chance that disabled children will be the result, due to there being a greater chance of having the same mutated genes.

-So what's this, God's backup device in case we didn't obey his laws? It's like he implemented this genetic disorder stuff because he knew (knowing everything) that we would disobey, so he made a more obvious sign? Sounds rather unusual for a "faith-based" God."

Your thinking backwards. God did not create "genetic disorder stuff", man did by sinning. What God did was warn man not to have sexual relations with a close relative because God knew the problems that would arrise, ie: disabled children.


"After Noah's flood - who was left that would not be closely related? The point of the flood was to wipe out everyone except Noah and his family. Flood's over. Everyone else is drowned. Noah's family has to resort to incest to get the species going again."

Correct, and again the fact remains that all sex today is incestious. The problem that arrises in regards to incestious sex, and that God warned man about, was/is that when closely related individuals have sex there is a greater possibility that their offspring will be disabled. This is due to the less diverse gene pool. Where the chance that the two closely related individuals having sex, will have the same mutated genes causing that genetic trait to fail to develop properly (thus causing a disability of some kind) increases greatly.