Acts of God

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,941
5
0
A town gets flooded, and thousands die. Only a handful survive. The survivor thank God for sparing their lives. Does that mean God killed those others needlessly? Does that mean God didn't consider those others worth saving? Isn't it selfish to consider yourself special enough that He saved you but not the others?

So what's God responsibility in this? Is He to be damned or praise?
 

spaceman

Lifer
Dec 4, 2000
17,563
150
106
Originally posted by: Moralpanic
A town gets flooded, and thousands die. Only a handful survive. The survivor thank God for sparing their lives. Does that mean God killed those others needlessly? Does that mean God didn't consider those others worth saving? Isn't it selfish to consider yourself special enough that He saved you but not the others?

So what's God responsibility in this? Is He to be damned or praise?

i dont think God factors in, if you survive...thats just the way the ball bounced.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,215
14
81
I would say that God had nothing to do with it...the people who survived where Lucky and the people who unfortunately perished were unlucky.


Ausm
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,215
14
81
Originally posted by: BingBongWongFooey
Well this thread oughtta quickly degenerate into mud slinging, but I must say that I love your sig :D

Whose sig are you refering to?


Ausm ;)


 

kami

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
17,627
5
81
Originally posted by: ausm
I would say that God had nothing to do with it...the people who survived where Lucky and the people who unfortunately perished were unlucky.


Ausm

 

LordJezo

Banned
May 16, 2001
8,140
1
0
You cannot expect to have free will and autonomy from God but also expect to have a higher power butting in all the time.

He just watches and sees what we do.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,941
5
0
i dont think God factors in, if you survive...thats just the way the ball bounced.

Well, i'm assuming this goes to those who believe in God, and what he can or cannot do. Every time you see something 'miraculous' happen, you see people praising him. They win the lottery, they praise him. They escape from the collapse of the two towers, they thank him. So obviously some people do believe in God and his actions. So should he not be held accountable for them? Are those that are praising and thanking him selfish for thinking that God helped them but not anybody else?
 

bigalt

Golden Member
Oct 12, 2000
1,525
0
0
The people that in this situation would be damning god are dead. They can't complain.

I would say that most people that believe that god intended some people to die also believe that god has some greater plan for it. No reason to be alarmed.
 

Dedpuhl

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
10,371
0
76
A town gets flooded, and thousands die. Only a handful survive. The survivor thank God for sparing their lives. Does that mean God killed those others needlessly? Does that mean God didn't consider those others worth saving? Isn't it selfish to consider yourself special enough that He saved you but not the others?

So what's God responsibility in this? Is He to be damned or praise

That's why religion does not make sense. When I'm wider awake, I'll be ready to debate...


Originally posted by: LordJezo
You cannot expect to have free will and autonomy from God but also expect to have a higher power butting in all the time.

He just watches and sees what we do.


If Gawd is omnipotent and omniscient, then you do not have free will.





 

fonzinator

Senior member
Nov 5, 2002
953
0
0
I'll have a go at this...

Take the story of Job from the Bible. It's the best example I can think of and most, even people who aren't too familiar with the Bible, know about Job's story. The man lost everything, his family, all his posessions, he was afflicted with sores from head to toe. He wanted to die he was in so much pain (emotionally, physically, ect.). However, Job never cursed God but rather praised him instead. In fact, Job says in chapter 1 to his nagging wife: "Shall we accept the good from God and not the bad?" You are right though...too many people only praise/thank God for "good" things that happen. While tragedies are appropriate responded to by mourning and sadness, we should also praise God during these times. A most interesting piece of the Job story is that God gave Satan permission to do all of these things to Job. Satan would not have been able to do any of these things to Job without God's permission (God is soverign over everything, even Satan).

The fact of the matter is that we are all totally sinful and deserve to be obliterated from the earth immediately. However, Christ's death on the cross stayed God's hand of wrath from all humanity. Christ's death also provided a protitation (payment/atonement) for our sins; to those who will place their faith in Christ. NO ONE deserves any of this mercy/grace from God, we all deserve death. The fact that God saves some from a terrible disaster, and not others, is not for us to say is fair or unfair.

For the one who would be thankful for being saved and not killed, this response is appropriate. One's heart should also reflect an attitude of total depravity before a perfectly holy God, no matter the circumstance (good or bad). For those who have placed their trust in Jesus' propitiation for their sins, they are seen as blameless before God. While they will continue to sin during their life (even still being totally depraved), their sin no longer demands an eternal separation from God (hell) but rather an eternity WITH God! Yet to some, this seems "unfair." The apostle Paul's responds to this very question in Romans 9:20-24 "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" This leads me back to my original statement...we all deserve immediate death for our sins. We don't deserve anything good from God at all. Yet he chooses to have mercy on all by not killing us all immediately!! His mercy is all the more for those who place their faith in Christ's payment for their sins...They receive the gift of eternal life!! For this, He should be praised!
 

UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,817
9,026
136
All I know is a lot of insurance and legalese doesn't cover for "acts of God"...and that makes me think God hates lawyers and insurance salesmen and perhaps thats why they lead such miserable lives...
 

TekChik

Senior member
Jan 15, 2003
839
0
0
fonz - just wanted to say thanks for your thoughts on this topic. it's really great to actually see something uplifting and positive on this site, not to mention the fundamental soundness of your explanation.
:D
 
Jan 31, 2002
40,819
2
0
Originally posted by: datalink7
So, how do you guys like your steak?

I like mine medium-rare :)

Come back to the thread in about an hour with your steak, and grill it overtop for about 4 minutes a side. Everything should be nicely roasting by then. :D

- M4H
 

djheater

Lifer
Mar 19, 2001
14,637
2
0
Not a whit, we defy augury: there's a special
providence in the fall of a sparrow. If it be now,
'tis not to come; if it be not to come, it will be
now; if it be not now, yet it will come: the
readiness is all: since no man has aught of what he
leaves, what is't to leave betimes?
 

fonzinator

Senior member
Nov 5, 2002
953
0
0
Originally posted by: TekChik
fonz - just wanted to say thanks for your thoughts on this topic. it's really great to actually see something uplifting and positive on this site, not to mention the fundamental soundness of your explanation.
:D
Thanks TekChik! I'm sure most on here don't agree with my answer, but it's the diversity of thought around here that makes this place so great! :)
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: fonzinator
Originally posted by: TekChik
fonz - just wanted to say thanks for your thoughts on this topic. it's really great to actually see something uplifting and positive on this site, not to mention the fundamental soundness of your explanation.
:D
Thanks TekChik! I'm sure most on here don't agree with my answer, but it's the diversity of thought around here that makes this place so great! :)
<Charlton Heston voice>
Damn your diversity to hell!
</Charlton Heston voice>

heh...how dare you think differently! :)
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,716
417
126
tbqhwy.com
Originally posted by: ncircle
Originally posted by: Moralpanic
A town gets flooded, and thousands die. Only a handful survive. The survivor thank God for sparing their lives. Does that mean God killed those others needlessly? Does that mean God didn't consider those others worth saving? Isn't it selfish to consider yourself special enough that He saved you but not the others?

So what's God responsibility in this? Is He to be damned or praise?

i dont think God factors in, if you survive...thats just the way the ball bounced.

 

0roo0roo

No Lifer
Sep 21, 2002
64,862
84
91
people that thank god that they survived a natural disaster or accident need their head examined. its really f*cked up thing to say if u think about it.
 

Dedpuhl

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
10,371
0
76
Originally posted by: fonzinator
I'll have a go at this...

Take the story of Job from the Bible. It's the best example I can think of and most, even people who aren't too familiar with the Bible, know about Job's story. The man lost everything, his family, all his posessions, he was afflicted with sores from head to toe. He wanted to die he was in so much pain (emotionally, physically, ect.). However, Job never cursed God but rather praised him instead. In fact, Job says in chapter 1 to his nagging wife: "Shall we accept the good from God and not the bad?" You are right though...too many people only praise/thank God for "good" things that happen. While tragedies are appropriate responded to by mourning and sadness, we should also praise God during these times. A most interesting piece of the Job story is that God gave Satan permission to do all of these things to Job. Satan would not have been able to do any of these things to Job without God's permission (God is soverign over everything, even Satan).

Ever watch South Park? I like Kyle's conclusion to the story of Job:

Sheila: Kyle, we wanna tell you about the book of Job. It's a story from the Bible.
Kyle: I've had enough of the Bible. What has it gotten me?
Gerald: Oh, I think you'll see differently after hearing this. Sit down, Kyle. Uh, okay. You see, Job lived in the east of Jordan a long long time ago. Job was a great man. He was blessed with ten lovely children, a wonderful wife, and many friends.
Sheila: He was godly, and a good man, and fed the poor.
Gerald: He was the most upright and honorable of men, and every day he praised God.
Sheila: But one day, Satan went up to heaven and talked to God.
Kyle: Satan talked to God?
Sheila: Yes, in the book of Job, Satan talks to God. And God says to Satan, "Have you seen Job? He is a great man, and he praises me every day."
Gerald: But Satan said, "Oh yeah? He only praises you because you gave him so much. If you didn't give him those things, he would curse your name."
Sheila: To which God said, "Oh yeah? I'll show you, Satan! I'll take those things away from Job and he will still praise my name."
Gerald: And so, God had a bunch of barbarians come in and slaughter Job's oxen and donkeys, and murder all his workers.
Sheila: Then God sent his fireballs from the sky and killed his sheep and the rest of his employees.
Gerald: And then, as Job's sons and daughters were eating, God sent a mighty wind to collapse the house and crush and kill them all.
Sheila: Job was terribly sad, but he fell to his knees and said, "The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away," and praised God's name.
Gerald: So then, Job got painful sores all over his body.
Sheila: He was in terrible, miserable pain all day, every day. But he still kept his faith.
Gerald: God said to Satan, "See? I told you. Job still praises me." [all that is heard after that is the sound of the heart monitor attached to Kyle.]


Kyle: [a few seconds later] And that's it? That's the end?
Sheila: Basically.
Kyle: That's the most horrible story I've ever heard. Why would God do such a horrible thing to a good person just to prove a point to Satan?
Gerald: Oh. Uhhh, I don't know.
Kyle: Then I was right. Job has all his children killed, and Michael Bay gets to keep making movies. There isn't a God.



 

rayray2

Senior member
Sep 12, 2002
871
0
76
Originally posted by: fonzinator
I'll have a go at this...

Take the story of Job from the Bible. It's the best example I can think of and most, even people who aren't too familiar with the Bible, know about Job's story. The man lost everything, his family, all his posessions, he was afflicted with sores from head to toe. He wanted to die he was in so much pain (emotionally, physically, ect.). However, Job never cursed God but rather praised him instead. In fact, Job says in chapter 1 to his nagging wife: "Shall we accept the good from God and not the bad?" You are right though...too many people only praise/thank God for "good" things that happen. While tragedies are appropriate responded to by mourning and sadness, we should also praise God during these times. A most interesting piece of the Job story is that God gave Satan permission to do all of these things to Job. Satan would not have been able to do any of these things to Job without God's permission (God is soverign over everything, even Satan).

The fact of the matter is that we are all totally sinful and deserve to be obliterated from the earth immediately. However, Christ's death on the cross stayed God's hand of wrath from all humanity. Christ's death also provided a protitation (payment/atonement) for our sins; to those who will place their faith in Christ. NO ONE deserves any of this mercy/grace from God, we all deserve death. The fact that God saves some from a terrible disaster, and not others, is not for us to say is fair or unfair.

For the one who would be thankful for being saved and not killed, this response is appropriate. One's heart should also reflect an attitude of total depravity before a perfectly holy God, no matter the circumstance (good or bad). For those who have placed their trust in Jesus' propitiation for their sins, they are seen as blameless before God. While they will continue to sin during their life (even still being totally depraved), their sin no longer demands an eternal separation from God (hell) but rather an eternity WITH God! Yet to some, this seems "unfair." The apostle Paul's responds to this very question in Romans 9:20-24 "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" This leads me back to my original statement...we all deserve immediate death for our sins. We don't deserve anything good from God at all. Yet he chooses to have mercy on all by not killing us all immediately!! His mercy is all the more for those who place their faith in Christ's payment for their sins...They receive the gift of eternal life!! For this, He should be praised!

Amen brother!!!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,426
6,088
126
My take on this matter is that we are God, that is to say, what god really is is what we really are but were separated from, ourselves without the illusion of duality. Before language we lived in the garden of Eden. Without thought in language we and what we perceived were one and what we felt we felt fully and true to the emotion. Our vision and our consciousness were undivided and we were everything we saw. There was no boundary at our skin. We were the infinite monkey and hooped it up in joy. With the origin of language we got the capacity to attach symbolic meaning to words, to invent the nonexistent and put it into words and thought. The concept of good and bad were born, the ability to divide, to distinguish, to separate, to classify. We, owing to the power of associative thinking, magical thinking as I some times refer to it, could not help but associate events with our emotions. We cause and create the world with our feelings. Our actions cause the world. It's tough being the cause of disaster in the world. We became afraid. We mustn?t fart or the world will die. Words became laden with fear and we passed it to our children. Don't feel this or that because the world will end. Don?t feel this or you are bad. We came to feel, each of us that we are the worst in the world. We established law and purity as a save path in this dangerous world. Conform or die because deviation is death to all. The mind of a child cannot live, survive with the experience of total pain that punishment brings, the experience of the withdrawal and threat of withdrawal of parental love. The child depends on the parent for live and will die, kill its own spirit to be acceptable. That spirit is God.

Well it happens now and again that owing to this or that factor the a few people break through the illusion of duality and discover their true self this other infinite thing. What can they do, how can they share. I think much depends on the nature of their enlightenment. If it happens within a tradition, the gift of one who went before, they become exemplars of that tradition. If as the case of Christ, for example, when a vision of adherence to law can be seen as having become perverted they may bring revolution in understanding, forgiveness for sin through symbol and faith. It is our own self hate that we must transcend but how. Who are we to tell ourselves we are OK. Such an attempt fails too easily due to the extraordinary and completely unexpected depth of that hate. Even the fact that God himself forgives us touches all but a few only superficially. It's a profoundly tough nut and the externalization of God as out there somewhere and all seeing and all powerful, true in some dimensions but not in others, makes for a shaky system of logic that carries obvious problems in logic.

How can God allow some to die and not others. To objectify God in a religion brings the possibility of finding the true self to many many more, perhaps, that would be possible without a collection of really psychological science, which is what religion sort of is. A big powerful God is a handy tool for a small self that hates itself. But it has its disadvantages too. Some, perhaps Moralpanic, find the notion of faith in a God who lets such incomprehensible suffering exist in the world when he himself has the power to stop it, just is too much to believe. Tragedy puts out the fire of more than one person's faith. And so religion offers its stories and its explanations and because there really is a God or a true self, for those who can keep the faith there comes the occasional one who breaks through.

Alternatively, I think, if you can't buy the stories or settle the contradictions of deep skepticism, you can go a different path. Religion is the path of transendence, in my opinion, the stepping over ones self hate and a suffering into the ocean of God's love. This love is very alien and feels 'out there'. The direct road is to go into your feelings and feel them, to re-experience the origins of self hate by reliving the traumatic events of childhood in which they occurred and then seeing for sure how you were lied to, how there was nothing wrong with you except that the presence of your inner God was reminding your guardians too much of the death of their own. But at present at least I would say that many fewer enter via that route. The feelings are so powerful, they feel so true that is, that we would do anything to avoid feeling them. Unfortunately we would also rather more experience nuclear war.

So the problem of evil in the world is a tough one. A symbolic explanation via faith, where it can be maintained as with Job, leads to a door to the infinite. And disbelief can lead to surrender, to the supposition there is no door and that is false. So for the logical skeptical mind all I can say is that there is a door and the powers attributed to God in religion are analogs of a real power that manifests in a completely different way. The experience of infinite, duality shattering Love is on an order that transcends everything we can imagine. It collapses time and space. It is the Holy Om, the Divine Breath, the Way.