ACLU sues over Evolution in Textbooks.

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Draknor

Senior member
Dec 31, 2001
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Originally posted by: Zakath15
I think an opening statement when discussing evolution, basically along the lines of "At this time, scientific observation supports Darwinian evolution as the scientifically accurate process by which our animal kingdom came to be. This is a theory, not a fact, and can be disproven (if evidence is provided to the contrary)."

I like this statement, especially if it's printed in the textbook.

I'm against the stickers - like others said, Why ONLY evolution? Everything in the freakin' science book is theory! And these are what, elementary school children? Most, probably all, of them do not yet have the capacity or knowledge to critically consider the information and possible alternatives.

I see this as a stepping stone - "We're just asking for stickers!" - NOW. Few years later, "We have another theory - you should teach all theories equally!" <-- I know they argue this now, but it would seem less unreasonable after a few years of "theory stickers"...
 

dexvx

Diamond Member
Feb 2, 2000
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If they put a disclaimer on evolution, than they need to put a disclaimer on the "theory of creationism". The point is that they singled out evolution of all the theories to smash it down with a little disclaimer sticker. It is uneven becaues only evolution gets a sticker, and no other theory does. If all theories get a little, then your whole textbook would be covered with stickers. The only reason that evolution gets the sticker is because people are objecting it due to religious reasons.

We have taken the constitution too liberally before and it doesn't need to be worsened. It reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...""

That is so BS. Although it means all religions, at the time it was established, it more or less pertained to all Christian religions during that time period. Why else do you see people swearing by the bible in court and swearing by the bible in inauguration as an official endorsement. I'm personally not against it, but religion has an influence on government.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
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Does the sticker lie when it says that evolution is just a theory?
 

BDawg

Lifer
Oct 31, 2000
11,631
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Originally posted by: Jzero
Good God. We have to put warning labels on textbooks now to appease the PC crowd?! I guess it's too much of so-called "educators" to accurately teach their pupils the scientific meanings of words like "theory" and "law" and to educate them on both concepts?

PC Crowd? The labels were demanded by the right-wing Christian conservatives.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,772
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"This Bible contains material claiming that it is the Absolute Word of God. This is a claim not a fact. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered."
 

DeafeningSilence

Golden Member
Jul 2, 2002
1,874
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Originally posted by: Draknor
I'm against the stickers - like others said, Why ONLY evolution? Everything in the freakin' science book is theory! And these are what, elementary school children? Most, probably all, of them do not yet have the capacity or knowledge to critically consider the information and possible alternatives.
EVERYTHING in the science book is theory???

What the heck science book did you read? It is full of facts -- observable & verifiable by the scientific method! History is the main aspect of science that does not fall into this category, and that's why the origin of the universe is the topic taught in science that has the most controversial theories.

Evolution is "singled out" because it stands alone as a theory that has been basically taught as fact in recent times. And the inability of children to critically consider alternatives is greater support for the inclusion of these disclaimer stickers. It helps reinforce the notion of uncertainty.
 

TheCoop

Senior member
Jun 29, 2002
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I am just curious if the book teaches creation as well as evolution. I doubt it since it is a public school. My son went to a private christian school and they were taught both and given both sides as being theories. I figure when we die, we will let God sort it out, if he is there, if he isn't then who has been hurt. That's why it is called religious freedoms - freedom to worship or not worship. Works for me. And that is why I put my son in private school. To keep him away from the liberal propaganda/agenda that is taught in schools today. One example is "sex education". What is that being taught in schools anyways? I taught my son at age ten about it and he understands everything perfectly. If he ever has sex b4 marriage and gets a girl pregnant, I will kill him. Oh, Oh. Better take that back, might get accused of hate speech against my son. j/k

take care
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
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Originally posted by: TheCoop
I am just curious if the book teaches creation as well as evolution. I doubt it since it is a public school. My son went to a private christian school and they were taught both and given both sides as being theories. I figure when we die, we will let God sort it out, if he is there, if he isn't then who has been hurt. That's why it is called religious freedoms - freedom to worship or not worship. Works for me. And that is why I put my son in private school. To keep him away from the liberal propaganda/agenda that is taught in schools today. One example is "sex education". What is that being taught in schools anyways? I taught my son at age ten about it and he understands everything perfectly. If he ever has sex b4 marriage and gets a girl pregnant, I will kill him. Oh, Oh. Better take that back, might get accused of hate speech against my son. j/k

take care

That sounds like a rational approach to sex education.
rolleye.gif


My parents taught me the same thing, actually. But they also stressed the importance of independent thinking - if I decide to become sexually active, be intelligent about it. Birth control, contraceptives, etc... all the things that need to be considered.
 

Draknor

Senior member
Dec 31, 2001
419
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Originally posted by: dexvx
We have taken the constitution too liberally before and it doesn't need to be worsened. It reads "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...""

That is so BS. Although it means all religions, at the time it was established, it more or less pertained to all Christian religions during that time period. Why else do you see people swearing by the bible in court and swearing by the bible in inauguration as an official endorsement. I'm personally not against it, but religion has an influence on government.

Religion is going to have an influence on goverment, because the government is made up of people and some people are religious. But I do think there's still too much direct involvement - like dexvx said, swearing on the bible. What if someone is an atheist or other non-christian religion? Does that mean the oath they just swore is utterly invalid?

Has anyone ever used that in court? IIRC, the oath says something to the effect of "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God". So if you don't believe in God or the teachings of the bible, does that invalidate the oath? Can you then lie in court and not be convicted of perjury because the oath was void?
 

Electric Amish

Elite Member
Oct 11, 1999
23,578
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There are very few laws in science and its mostly theories

Not with what's taught in HS. The majority of those are Laws. You don't really hit many theories at all until College.

amish
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
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Originally posted by: DeafeningSilence
Originally posted by: Draknor
I'm against the stickers - like others said, Why ONLY evolution? Everything in the freakin' science book is theory! And these are what, elementary school children? Most, probably all, of them do not yet have the capacity or knowledge to critically consider the information and possible alternatives.
EVERYTHING in the science book is theory???

What the heck science book did you read? It is full of facts -- observable & verifiable by the scientific method! History is the main aspect of science that does not fall into this category, and that's why the origin of the universe is the topic taught in science that has the most controversial theories.

Evolution is "singled out" because it stands alone as a theory that has been basically taught as fact in recent times. And the inability of children to critically consider alternatives is greater support for the inclusion of these disclaimer stickers. It helps reinforce the notion of uncertainty.

Actually, it's all theory. Any law of science is a theory until it can be proven to hold true in all situations, at all times... that's why most theories are just that. Observation is relative, verification fickle.

Does that mean that we shouldn't claim these scientific facts and theories as true for the time being? No. They're the most reliable and consistent explanation for the phenomena in the world around us. But I wouldn't bet my life on the fact that Darwinian evolution (or creationism) is the only factual explanation of life as we know it.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
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Originally posted by: Electric Amish
There are very few laws in science and its mostly theories

Not with what's taught in HS. The majority of those are Laws. You don't really hit many theories at all until College.

amish

Ah, but evolution is a theory and they teach that in grade school.


 

NogginBoink

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: CocaCola5
I would think its not a bad idea to atleast teach the difference between theory and fact...

Right!

I say we bring a lawsuit against the schools and demand stickers in textbooks that read:

This textbook contains material on gravity. Gravity is a theory, not a fact, regarding the attraction of bodies to each other. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: NogginBoink
Originally posted by: CocaCola5
I would think its not a bad idea to atleast teach the difference between theory and fact...

Right!

I say we bring a lawsuit against the schools and demand stickers in textbooks that read:

This textbook contains material on gravity. Gravity is a theory, not a fact, regarding the attraction of bodies to each other. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.

Gravity is a law, proven fact. NO ONE disputes this. Evolution is not and is a theory. Don't be a tool.


 

Electric Amish

Elite Member
Oct 11, 1999
23,578
1
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Originally posted by: PSYWVic
Originally posted by: NogginBoink
Originally posted by: CocaCola5
I would think its not a bad idea to atleast teach the difference between theory and fact...

Right!

I say we bring a lawsuit against the schools and demand stickers in textbooks that read:

This textbook contains material on gravity. Gravity is a theory, not a fact, regarding the attraction of bodies to each other. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.

Gravity is a law, proven fact. NO ONE disputes this. Evolution is not and is a theory. Don't be a tool.

Yes, evolution is a theory.

The thing is, we need to teach children something in school about where they came from, don't we?

Creation is also a "theory".

So what do we do? There is more physical evidence pertaining to evolution than there is of creation.

amish
 

Draknor

Senior member
Dec 31, 2001
419
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0
Originally posted by: DeafeningSilence
Originally posted by: Draknor
I'm against the stickers - like others said, Why ONLY evolution? Everything in the freakin' science book is theory! And these are what, elementary school children? Most, probably all, of them do not yet have the capacity or knowledge to critically consider the information and possible alternatives.
EVERYTHING in the science book is theory???

What the heck science book did you read? It is full of facts -- observable & verifiable by the scientific method! History is the main aspect of science that does not fall into this category, and that's why the origin of the universe is the topic taught in science that has the most controversial theories.

Evolution is "singled out" because it stands alone as a theory that has been basically taught as fact in recent times. And the inability of children to critically consider alternatives is greater support for the inclusion of these disclaimer stickers. It helps reinforce the notion of uncertainty.

Well, history aside, I was referring to the concept of "you cannot prove, you can only disprove." It's a technical detail - just because you drop a book 100,000,000,000 times and it falls and hits the ground every time does not prove gravity exists - it's simply more evidence that supports the theory of gravity. However, if you dropped a book and it did not fall, one time, and there was no other rational explanations (ie strings attached, magnetic fields, air currents, thrusters, etc), then the current theory of gravity could be disproven (ie it would have to be modified to take into account this new observation.

Now of course, we've got so much evidence for gravity and most of the "facts" in a science book that they are not questioned anymore, and so we call them laws or facts.

I concur that evolution is still more of a theory than a law. And it's been years since I've been in elementary school, and I don't remember exactly how evolution was presented. I'm pretty sure it was presented as a theory (ie this is what we think happened), but I don't know how it's being taught now. I agree it should be taught as a theory. But if it's being taught that way, then you don't need the stickers, do you? As for creationism - if parents want to teach that to their children, fine - that' their right. However, unless there is mainstream support of creationism in credible scientific circles (which I do not believe there is), then I don't think it needs to be taught to elementary or middle school children. Mentioning that other theories exist should be sufficient IMHO.
 

zippy

Diamond Member
Nov 10, 1999
9,998
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This is neither the start nor end to this debate. I did a presentation in AP US History and Government this past year on the history of Evolution since 1980 (after the AP exam so we just needed another grade in the books and got to choose our topics). So here is an outline of events since 1980...

**1981:" Equal Time" Bills

Lousiana and Arkansas pass bills that compel high schools teaching evolution to give a balanced treatment to creation science
Arkansas bill alludes to the study of worldwide flood and other events noted in the Bible. Creation science is rooted in the ideas of flood geology.

**1982: McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education
- Rules that creation science fails to meet the essential characteristics of science

Federal court strikes down Arkansas¡¦s recent ¡§equal time¡¨ bill. Most groups testifying against the bill are religious, not scientific, that argue that evolution is the mainstay of biology. Judge William Overton states that creationists ¡§do not take data, weight it against the opposing data, and thereafter reach conclusions.¡¨

**1982: First Gallup Poll
- Americans split evenly between creationism and evolution
- 76% of Americans want to see creationism taught in schools

76% of Americans want to see creationism taught; not necessarily in science class though.

**1987: Supreme Court overturns "Equal time" bill

Overturns Lousiana¡¦s ¡§equal time¡¨ claiming that the bill¡¦s intent is to ¡§restructure the science curriculum to conform with a particular religious viewpoint.¡¨ Also notable in 1987 is Edwards v. Aguillard which said that comprehensive science education is undermined when it is forbidden to teach evolution except when creation science is also taught.

** General Trend in 1980s: Creationism spreads worldwide

Creationism as a principle is spreading worldwide as a movement born in the U.S.

** 1990: DNA Codes offer new evidence of evolution

New technology allows scientists to read the DNA sequence much more easily. Evolutionary scientists now see, at a molecular level, how the DNA of various organisms has changed throughout time as these organisms evolved.

** 1990: Intelligent Design gains ground
If you don't know what Intelligent Design is check here
But basically, Intelligent Design states that the universe came to be by a conscious action by some supreme being and that successive evolutionary advances were also conscious actions.

** 1994-5: Textbook Disclaimers

A requirement by the school board of Tangipahoa Parish, Louisiana states that whenever evolution is taught, students must be informed that the material is ¡§not intended to influence or dissuade the Biblical version of creation.¡¨ The Alabama Board of Education states that the disclaimer must note evolution as ¡§controversial¡¨ and ¡§a theory, not a fact.¡¨ Calling evolution a theory casts a shadow of doubt onto, what most scientists consider, the well-proven foundation of biology. Also, this label casts a ¡§theory¡¨ as the opposite of a ¡§fact¡¨ rather than a scientific framework supported by facts.


** 1996: Darwin¡¦s Black Box

Author Michael Behe, and Intelligent Design supporter, writes that the living cell is far too complex to have evolved in gradual steps. This book is packed with details on molecular biology yet is criticized by many scientists, including those whose work he cites as evidence against evolution.

** 1996: Pope John Paul II endorses evolution

Calling it ¡§remarkable¡¨

** 1999: Kansas: Battle in the Schools
- Drops evolution from school curricula in a vote of 6-4
- "Big Bang" and references to the Earth as being billions of years old also dropped

Three nationals science organizations sent the Kansas board of education a message stating that if evolution is left out of the science standards, that they will receive no help in creating those standards by denying copyright permission for the Kansas board to reprint section of their national standards.
Other states are encouraged by the decision and look to the Kansas model for how to treat evolution in public schools. A general trend of northern states teaching evolution correctly and southern states not is noticed.

** 1999: Columbine High School

The tragedy at Columbine leads to an outcry that teenagers in America have lost their moral bearings. Republican Congressman Tom Delay of Texas links this moral decay directly to evolution saying, ¡§Our school systems teach children that they are nothing but glorified apes who are evolutionized out of some primordial soup.¡¨ While outrageous, this expresses a common fear of anti-evolutionists.

** 2000: Science Standards called ¡§reprehensible¡¨

19 US States do ¡§a weak-to-reprehensible job of handling evolution in their science standards.¡¨ 12 States shun the word ¡§evolution¡¨ and 4 avoid topics in evolution completely.

** 2000: Jefferson High School students petition for creationism

Jefferson High School students petition for creationism to be taught in their school. The campaign, which is criticized by the school¡¦s biology teachers, is supported by most students. However, the plea is rejected by the local school board.

** 2001: Gallup Poll
- US still split over evolution
- 57% say creationism best describes human origins

However, many people who chose creationism, do not consider themselves creationists. A great number do not rule out evolution altogether. In 20 years since the last Gallup Poll, public opinion has changed little.

** 2001: Human Genome reveals human evolution

With the ¡§cracking¡¨ of the human genome, scientists, now, more than ever, see how intimately related the human species is to others on earth. Sharing 98% of their genes with chimpanzees and also sharing genes with fruit flies and yeast.

** 2001: New Kansas Board of Ed reverses evolution decision

The new Kansas Board of Education reverses the controversial 1999 decision to ban evolution in Kansas schools.

** 2002: Evolution debate back in Ohio

Ohio State Board struggles to come up with new science standards. Many backers of intelligent design push to have the idea put into state standards. Intelligent design critics claim that this is a disguise for creationism.

Summary: So what progress have we made over the last 22 years?

Not a whole lot. We now have many more facts to support the theory of evolution, but the number of people subscribing to the theory has not increased.

--------------------------------

I figured this post might give some good background to this debate. I find it to be a fascinating topic actually.

By the way, I think that the stickers should be removed from the textbooks, the ACLU is doing the right thing. As noted in my presentation, a theory is a scientific framework supported by facts. So why single out evolution? It's one thing if the textbook companies start off the book with a chapter on vocabulary and include that theories are not facts but rather a scientific framework support by facts, it's another for local school districts to slap a sticker in the book singling out the theory of evolution.

I hope this post was informative. :)
 

NogginBoink

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: PSYWVic
Originally posted by: NogginBoink
Originally posted by: CocaCola5
I would think its not a bad idea to atleast teach the difference between theory and fact...

Right!

I say we bring a lawsuit against the schools and demand stickers in textbooks that read:

This textbook contains material on gravity. Gravity is a theory, not a fact, regarding the attraction of bodies to each other. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.

Gravity is a law, proven fact. NO ONE disputes this. Evolution is not and is a theory. Don't be a tool.

WHAT!?

There is absolutely no proof of a gravitational force.

We have repeated observations that yes, two bodies are attracted to each other. We have no explanation. All it would take is ONE observation of two bodies that DON'T attract each other to throw everything we THINK we "know" about gravity out the window. Just because no one has ever observed an event that would contradict our accepted "knowledge" of gravity doesn't mean that such an event doesn't exist, and just because "no one disputes" the theory of gravity does not mean it's been proven that there's a gravitational force.

Yes, the theory of gravity is (for all practical purposes) universally accepted by just about everyone. Nevertheless, it is a scientific theory that there's some force that attracts bodies to each other, since no proof or explanation of such a force has been offered.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,772
6,770
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Considering the number of people in the would who die every year from religious fanaticism, the certainty that they and only they have the truth, We the People of the World unite and demand that religion stop being taught as fact. It requires but the most rudimentary intellect to realize that thousands of different claims of factuality cannot all be right. Only one could be. Given that these thousands are constantly multiplying into thousands more and have been for centuries, it requires but meager additional intellect to descern that the notion of even one being correct is rubbish. Owing, therefore, to the elligant simplicity of this declaration and the concomitant violence associated with the promulgation of absurdities as fact, We the People of the World declare that hence forth all theoretical and speculative attempt to explain the ultimate nature of reality, be they scientific or religious, will under penalty of death, cease to be taught as Truth and procede in explanation only as theoretical notions to be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered."
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,402
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they should stick a giant disclaimer on it that most ideas presented in a biology book that don't have to do with ATP tranfers or how muscles work or how many bones are in your body are theories. heck, very few things in science that are postulated rather than direct observations are laws. the only ones i can really think of are the 3 laws of thermodynamics.

as for two bodys that don't attract... electrons ;)
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,772
6,770
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You're right, ELFenix, I know for a fact that I have one more bone in my body than my biology text says I do. Well at least sometimes.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Electric Amish
Originally posted by: PSYWVic
Originally posted by: NogginBoink
Originally posted by: CocaCola5
I would think its not a bad idea to atleast teach the difference between theory and fact...

Right!

I say we bring a lawsuit against the schools and demand stickers in textbooks that read:

This textbook contains material on gravity. Gravity is a theory, not a fact, regarding the attraction of bodies to each other. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.

Gravity is a law, proven fact. NO ONE disputes this. Evolution is not and is a theory. Don't be a tool.

Yes, evolution is a theory.

The thing is, we need to teach children something in school about where they came from, don't we?

Creation is also a "theory".

So what do we do? There is more physical evidence pertaining to evolution than there is of creation.

amish


Yes, creation is also just a theory.
I see nothing wrong with evolution being taught in schools, as long as it is presented as theory and not fact (because it's not fact). When it comes to things that evolution and creation, I feel that parents should have the right to instruct their children as they see fit. It is not the purpose of government to teach children religion (science being religion in another guise).
Funny thing here is that I'm a dues-paying ACLU member, and I really think they've gone off the deep end for the last time and that it's time for me to stop supporting them. I appreciate what they have done to protect the Constitution but their constant anti-religion focus is simply misguided. Religion is not the big threat to freedom, government is.

NogginBoink, get a clue man, it's the Law of Gravity, not "theory of gravity." And scientists may not know exactly how it works but they have been able to put a mathematical formula behind it that has worked without fail for roughly 400 years. That makes it a law.
Evolution, on the other hand, is far more complex, is not repeatedable in the laboratory, and there's no single mathematical formula behind how it happened. No one knows for sure how it happened, if it even happened at all, and there are flaws and gaps in theory you could drive a Mac truck through.

Moonbeam, get the hell over it. Without religion, those same people would kill each other for another reason. Perhaps you should actually try studying religion for a change, so you would know what you were talking about?
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
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Originally posted by: Lucky
. The fact that they singled out evolution out of all of the theories in science has to be based on religion. That is where the violation of Church and State.

I'm not so sure it is.

"The stickers, placed in new science books this month after requests from parents opposed to evolution on religious grounds, say evolution is a theory, not fact, and should be critically considered."

The stickers are the because some religious nut-jobs started to whine because facts prevented them from brainwashing their kids, plain and simple. It's alla bout religion, nothing more.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,772
6,770
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Moonbeam, get the hell over it. Without religion, those same people would kill each other for another reason. Perhaps you should actually try studying religion for a change, so you would know what you were talking about?

------------------------------------------------------------

Now there you go, getting violent over religion. My my my.

So tell me, is the assertion that "those same people would kill each other for another reason" a theory or a fact?

And by the way, evolution is isn't only a Theory and a Law, it's a fact. We are Chimpanzees. Have a banana.