ACA (a.k.a. Obamacare) Upheld

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Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
I think the fascinating thing about this discussion is the fact that the conservatives here haven't really offered any workable alternatives (i could have missed it though if they did). Hell, i don't think i even see any conservatives here mention any fairy tale alternatives.

I think it's time for conservatives to just admit they enjoy the status quo of SOME people having insurances and others not having anything. And the only reason they oppose this is because this is BARACK HUSSEIN HITLER POL POT OBAMA's bill.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
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I believe the argument is that your health and habits can very much wind up costing your fellow citizens...

Does that give you the moral authority to force me to do what you want me to do?

Since my driving to work may put other drivers at risk, does that give you the authority to regulate how much I drive, by what route, and with what car?
 
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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
I think the fascinating thing about this discussion is the fact that the conservatives here haven't really offered any workable alternatives (i could have missed it though if they did). Hell, i don't think i even see any conservatives here mention any fairy tale alternatives.

When the solution is worse than the status quo, an alternative to the solution is unnecessary.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
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That's what I told my brother, people are already doing the walk into emergency rooms for routine shit in order to get treated for free since they can't turn anyone away. We all pay for that crap. So any measures to force more people into paying up for what they use is great to me.

I just haven't seen what the downside to all this is and maybe someone can show me barneystyle.

You can thank that liberal Ronald Reagan for that. Hey lets enact EMTALA, but not how to fund it.
 

jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
Does that give you the moral authority to force me to do what you want me to do?

Since my driving to work may put other drivers at risk, does that give you the authority to regulate how much I drive, by what route, and with what car?

It's called auto insurance. There are only 3 states without compulsory auto insurance requirements.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
I think the fascinating thing about this discussion is the fact that the conservatives here haven't really offered any workable alternatives (i could have missed it though if they did). Hell, i don't think i even see any conservatives here mention any fairy tale alternatives.

I think it's time for conservatives to just admit they enjoy the status quo of SOME people having insurances and others not having anything. And the only reason they oppose this is because this is BARACK HUSSEIN HITLER POL POT OBAMA's bill.

I think the fascinating thing is, is it's a tax increase on everyone. A "regressive" flat tax at that, oh how will those "progressives" ever be able to handle themselves for putting such a burden on the down trodden?
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Worse than invading iraq and itching to invade iran? Yeah i doubt it.

Divert!

No ideas are better than worse ideas. At the very least, it's better to stand still than regress. That's the simple rationale in response to your amazement with how conservatives have offered no alternatives.

Your solution to an excess of hats is to lop off heads.
 
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jhu

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,918
9
81
All this means is that healthcare will be rationed and we will be seeing more death panels

Hate to break it to you, but healtcare is already being rationed. And we already have death panels. They're called "insurance companies." Ever had coverage denied because of a preexisting condition? You're lucky if you haven't.
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
0
I think the fascinating thing about this discussion is the fact that the conservatives here haven't really offered any workable alternatives (i could have missed it though if they did). Hell, i don't think i even see any conservatives here mention any fairy tale alternatives.

I think it's time for conservatives to just admit they enjoy the status quo of SOME people having insurances and others not having anything. And the only reason they oppose this is because this is BARACK HUSSEIN HITLER POL POT OBAMA's bill.

The problem is that Democrats are not solving the real problem which is high health care costs.

I readily admit I have no problem with some people not having health insurance. Stuff costs money. Why should I be responsible for providing health insurance for a guy, and his brood, who has 30 kids with 11 women?
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
Does that give you the moral authority to force me to do what you want me to do?

Since my driving to work may put other drivers at risk, does that give you the authority to regulate how much I drive, by what route, and with what car?

We do have DUI laws...

It's all a matter of context. And again, it's something we all share. These are societal issues. It's not an us against you situation.

EDIT: Also, not being forced. It is essentially incentivised behaviors, and that's something completely familiar when it comes to taxation (smoking for the obvious).
 
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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Hate to break it to you, but healtcare is already being rationed. And we already have death panels. They're called "insurance companies." Ever had coverage denied because of a preexisting condition? You're lucky if you haven't.

Yes. Companies. Those things that sell products you aren't forced to buy, and that if you don't like the product you can shop elsewhere. If you don't like their death panel, you can look for alternatives. Or, God forbid, you can pay out of pocket for your own care.

As opposed to government-enforced death panels. Once they say you're dead, you're dead.
 

Puddle Jumper

Platinum Member
Nov 4, 2009
2,835
1
0
I think the fascinating thing about this discussion is the fact that the conservatives here haven't really offered any workable alternatives (i could have missed it though if they did). Hell, i don't think i even see any conservatives here mention any fairy tale alternatives.

I think it's time for conservatives to just admit they enjoy the status quo of SOME people having insurances and others not having anything. And the only reason they oppose this is because this is BARACK HUSSEIN HITLER POL POT OBAMA's bill.

If someone already has good healthcare they are happy with why should they want the system to change? Several of the biggest supporters of the bill in this thread have admited that it would personally benefit them, it's only resanable to assume that the status quo is working just fine for some people.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
We do have DUI laws...

It's all a matter of context. And again, it's something we all share. These are societal issues. It's not an us against you situation.

Also, not being forced. It is essentially incentivised behaviors, and that's something completely familiar when it comes to taxation (smoking for the obvious).

You said that my health and habits can very much wind up costing my fellow citizens.

My driving can cost my fellow citizens. I may not be a good driver (which puts other drivers at risk). I may emit lots of exhaust (which other people have to breath). I may use up a lot of fuel (which may drive up the cost of gas).

Using your rationale, is the government justified in forcing me to buy the car it deems safest and most fuel-efficient?
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,647
2,922
136
To take a step back from the partisan rhetoric for a minute, now that I've had 24 hours to digest the ruling I have to say that I'm both pleased and disturbed by the Court's decision.

Way back in the days when the grass was still green, and we were discussing the ACA in another thread I stated that I firmly believed that the mandate as presented was unconstitutional. I did not, and do not, believe that the Commerce Clause and Necessary and Proper Arguments were legitimate.

It was asked generally why the mandate and penalty was different than a tax and credit like mortgage interest and I answered. In my opinion the mandate would be constitutional had Congress either raised taxes and offered a tax credit for purchasing insurance or raised taxes and paid for health care/insurance directly. After all, the first is done all the time and so is the second.

I was determined to point out though that Congress went to great pains to ensure that the mandate was not a tax and that neither of the latter two scenarios applied. Both houses and the President spouted at every turn that "the mandate is not a tax". Fast forward to yesterday and the Supreme Court says "the mandate is constitutional because it is a tax".

In my line of work I do a lot of statutory analysis, mainly concerning specific excise/privilege taxes. I am required to give subject-matter specialist testimony in administrative hearings and court cases regarding these taxes. Quite often a statute will be vague and legislative intent will play a deciding role in the matter. We don't have appellate courts, so any district court ruling is appealed directly to the State Supreme Court. Our Supreme Court's decision will often hinge on whether the legislative committee minutes are clear enough to provide intent (since precedent prevent legislators from testifying to intent after-the-fact) or if the court will defer to Dep't of Taxation v Shetakis, which states that ambiguous tax credit statutes are to be interpreted in favor of taxability.

I am troubled by the USSC decision because on it's face it appears to have completely ignored legislative intent. It was absolutely clear from the public statements and hearings that the mandate was not a tax in the eyes of the people who voted on it. The solicitor general did argue that it was a tax, but he is an executive branch employee and cannot waive legislative intent. To me, this decision says "We don't care what you intended the law to do, we're going to reinterpret it (and essentially rewrite it) to suit our needs."

On the flip side, it was obvious that the the claims that the mandate was not a tax were blatant lies. Not only was the Supreme Court right that "it looks like a tax and smells like a tax..." in re the mandate, but some of the other provisions (like the 300% premium band disparity) were essentially a tax as well. It is gratifying that the Supreme Court called out Congress on their lies.

So, I am torn. I know that the "it's not a tax" claims were false and am happy to see the perpetrators brought to light. Yet I am disturbed because the method of reaching a decision appears to be ad hoc and ignores established jurisprudence.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
No, it's not different. The child tax credit still means that those of us who don't have kids pay higher taxes. Same with the mortgage interest tax deduction and houses, except that as public policy that's even dumber and more screwed up.

Its very different, you have to be obtuse to think otherwise.