Abortion...

[LunarRay]

Mom, today in class we learned that the inferences one can draw from the comments of others is indeed broad. For instance, a miscarrage is the killing of human life through the quite normal process of rejection by the woman induced by any number of causes... just like when uncle jupiter ended the life of that bad planet that tried to rob its resources. Its not like death from natural causes because someone is responsible.
That since no two humans are identical save identical twins and all the eggs a woman will ever have she has already and not so a man and sperm. Which means that a potential unique human occurs at conception not before. No two sperm are identical.
That religious conviction does not result in the philosophy on abortion.... it's only science that matters. And science don't matter if it don't agree with religious philosophy.
We also learned that men want to control everything and that is why no woman can be president.
I think I learned other stuff too but I'm not sure.

 

[Geekbabe]

Part of what gets me here is the idea that paying child support is totally equal to to the physical risk involved in carring a pregnancy to tem and giving birth. For every guy paying child support thru the nose,there's also a single mother sitting someplace who collects little or nothing,just because a court orders it doesn't mean it
gets paid,it also very often isn't anywhere near enough particularly in cases where children are young enough to require daycare, in the Boston area I have a co-worker friend with one child,she pays $250 per weeek in child care,her rent is $1,200 a month.Child support? she never see's it, Dad sharing physical custody? he hasn't so much as sent a birthday card.Oh and last time I checked women are also held accountable for supporting their children, "I don't collect any child support" is not a legal excuse for there not being enough food on the table,a roof over the kid's head and proper childcare provided to kids under the age of 13.

Moral of the story is that for every guy with a tale of woe there's a woman with an equal horror story,in the end though,imho the choice must be left up to the one who will be left holding the baby.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: HJD1
That religious conviction does not result in the philosophy on abortion.... it's only science that matters. And science don't matter if it don't agree with religious philosophy.

My position on abortion is based on religious conviction - that taking a life is wrong. But science is necessary to determine when life begins.

Very interesting post.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
You go right ahead and focus on the time period and completely ignore the reality of body commitment if your insecure ego demands it. It must be frightening to have so little intuitive skills as to fear an incapacity to know another person so little as to get caught in such a situation, or to fear tragedy so much as to be afraid to live. Worry about something real, like what sort of world you make for children. You can't change biology. Maybe you can change other realities of the world.

Was that intended for me or Alistar? Either way, you're an elite member you ought to know the rules against personal attacks. I won't bother responding to you anymore.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: mugsywwiii

Originally posted by: HJD1
That religious conviction does not result in the philosophy on abortion.... it's only science that matters. And science don't matter if it don't agree with religious philosophy.

My position on abortion is based on religious conviction - that taking a life is wrong. But science is necessary to determine when life begins.

Very interesting post.

I would not be unequally yoked in a relationship so if my spouse become pregnant neither she nor I would consider abortion as a means of remedy to a mistake of passion. religious dogma tells you when life begins. It got not to do with science. But, using science one can conclude life began and continues (not a wise butt comment) one can conclude that the life we are referring to (the potential human conflict) begins when it exists as an entity and this occurs when it is viable... an individual before thisis part of and not independent. The church suggests it existed anywhere from in heaven to at conception. So what you believe is all that matters as long as your mate believes likewise.


Edit: read Moonbeam with reflection and thought... then read it again.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
Part of what gets me here is the idea that paying child support is totally equal to to the physical risk involved in carring a pregnancy to tem and giving birth. For every guy paying child support thru the nose,there's also a single mother sitting someplace who collects little or nothing,just because a court orders it doesn't mean it
gets paid,it also very often isn't anywhere near enough particularly in cases where children are young enough to require daycare, in the Boston area I have a co-worker friend with one child,she pays $250 per weeek in child care,her rent is $1,200 a month.Child support? she never see's it, Dad sharing physical custody? he hasn't so much as sent a birthday card.Oh and last time I checked women are also held accountable for supporting their children, "I don't collect any child support" is not a legal excuse for there not being enough food on the table,a roof over the kid's head and proper childcare provided to kids under the age of 13.

Moral of the story is that for every guy with a tale of woe there's a woman with an equal horror story,in the end though,imho the choice must be left up to the one who will be left holding the baby.

There can be no doubt about that. Women are the ones that must be givin that responsibility and one I'm glad I'd not have to make in conjunction or make alone.
There are so many rights demanded by men when it comes to women that I don't think men should get a vote on the issue.... the biology is such that to me it is simple... the egg is what got fertilized not the sperm. The egg is the woman's domain not the man's. A sperm would seek to fertilize a tree if left to its own devices... (humor)

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: HJD1

I would not be unequally yoked in a relationship so if my spouse become pregnant neither she nor I would consider abortion as a means of remedy to a mistake of passion. religious dogma tells you when life begins.

Ah yes, you have a point. But I suppose science is important for justifying an anti-Abortion position to the non-religious.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: mugsywwiii

Originally posted by: HJD1

I would not be unequally yoked in a relationship so if my spouse become pregnant neither she nor I would consider abortion as a means of remedy to a mistake of passion. religious dogma tells you when life begins.

Ah yes, you have a point. But I suppose science is important for justifying an anti-Abortion position to the non-religious.

Non religious folks have only the science without the confusion and guilt... it is a moral decision based on what THEY believe not what they are told to believe. I believe life is a continuation that exists as does energy Kinetic and potential and more. I would never consider ending that which has potential nor stiffle that which is kinetic. I believe that once the ball is rolling it overcomes the friction of discord and becomes,.... potentially even the MD who saves my life or the Senator who defeats Bush the third.
In any event, even though a Christian, I live in a country that provides certain rights and I support my neighbors right to see it 180 degrees differn't.

 

[Moonbeam]

Was that intended for me or Alistar? Either way, you're an elite member you ought to know the rules against personal attacks. I won't bother responding to you anymore.
---------------------------------
Usually always the most recent post, or in this case Alistar. Ones farther back I direct. You should know that if you have a gigantic sore toe and you get yourself out where there's a lot of foot traffic, somebody's going to stem on it. It that's too abstruse, if you lead with your chin you're bound to get bopped, or if you are psychologically sensitive, have bad feelings about yourself, feel like the worst in the world like everybody else does, you will discover that the feeling you feel keeps seeming to be affirmed by the external world. it's our fate to be offended because we feel offended. That's why it's important not to consider other people too much. Here's an interesting piece of advise I got one time. If you try to please people somebody will be offended. If you try to please yourself, somebody will be offended. Hurray. Free at last! Free at last! I know what I'm going to do. When you try to consider people generally what you do is consider what you think they think is important. I'm a dummy. I don't know what's important to you. I had no idea you, for example, would be offended by what I said to Alistar, or that you would take it negatively. As somebody who has, in my humbled opinion, paid the ultimate price for what I know in the form of all my illusions about everything in the world, or at least a chunk of them. , I am perhaps not quite as perturbed by the comments of others. I cried a few of my tears and feel a bit perky, at times. I guess if you shake a Pepsi bottle hard enough you could blow somebody over with squirt but I was intended, maybe, for a more leisurely sipping. Anyway, I can say that insulting you isn't my purpose. I got a hunch that if the truth was pleasant everybody would know it. You have to ask where your feeling of being offended is coming from. If something bothers me, I immediately know that I'm unconscious of some negative feeling in that area. Offense is a blessing because it tells you where you are blind.

 

[mugs]

Non religious folks have only the science without the confusion and guilt... it is a moral decision based on what THEY believe not what they are told to believe. I believe life is a continuation that exists as does energy Kinetic and potential and more. I would never consider ending that which has potential nor stiffle that which is kinetic. I believe that once the ball is rolling it overcomes the friction of discord and becomes,.... potentially even the MD who saves my life or the Senator who defeats Bush the third.
In any event, even though a Christian, I live in a country that provides certain rights and I support my neighbors right to see it 180 degrees differn't.

Woah... too philosophical for my blood.

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: Ilmater
I don't think there's enough discussion on this, considering this is a Politics & News forum.

First off, I don't want this to turn into a flame war. I want logical reasoning because that's the only way to change anyone's mind.

I used to be pro-choice, mainly because I thought the morality of the whole thing was in question, and if it is then the government would not have the right to step in and say what you could and could not do. However, logically, it is immoral. I also want to be clear that I'm kind of agnostic, but I lean towards atheist, so the "God" arguments are completely out.

For example, if I were to punch my girlfriend in the stomach two months into her pregnancy, I'd be charged for murder (not to mention battery and possibly assault). But this is only if she decided that she was going to keep the baby. Now let's say I'm like Scott Peterson and I murder my pregnant wife (I'll say allegedly here for legal purposes. How many murders am I charged for? 2. Why? You don't even know for sure what my wife wanted. But the important fact to take away from this is that it's universally accepted in America that it's morally and legally wrong to punch my pregnant gf in the stomach or to in any other way kill an unborn child. So how do we justify it just because the woman "doesn't want one right now?"

With all of that being said, I hope this is kept civil so that this thread doesn't get locked. I'll tell you all what I told the person that convinced me to be pro-life: I'd love it if you could change my mind.

If I were a woman, I would want to be able to decide when I had children.

 

[Zebo]

Brandon nice clean site you have there. I like the layout and you message about the chicks

 

[przero]

"Moral of the story is that for every guy with a tale of woe there's a woman with an equal horror story,in the end though,imho the choice must be left up to the one who will be left holding the baby. "

and had they kept their clothes on......

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: przero
"Moral of the story is that for every guy with a tale of woe there's a woman with an equal horror story,in the end though,imho the choice must be left up to the one who will be left holding the baby. "

and had they kept their clothes on......

I'm sorry,I don't feel the need to punish women for being sexual by forcing them to carry unwanted pregnancies to term.

 

[Corn]

I'm sorry,I don't feel the need to punish women for being sexual by forcing them to carry unwanted pregnancies to term.

But it's perfectly OK to punish a man for being sexual by forcing him to pay for unwanted children for 18 years.........Nice double standard you have there.

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: przero
"Moral of the story is that for every guy with a tale of woe there's a woman with an equal horror story,in the end though,imho the choice must be left up to the one who will be left holding the baby. "

and had they kept their clothes on......

I'm sorry,I don't feel the need to punish women for being sexual by forcing them to carry unwanted pregnancies to term.

It doesn't have anything to do with punishing. It has to do with accepting responsiblility.

If you wanna play, you gotta pay in my opinion.

edit: This goes for both the woman and the man btw.

 

[Moonbeam]

But it's perfectly OK to punish a man for being sexual by forcing him to pay for unwanted children for 18 years.........Nice double standard you have there.
-----------------------
No double standard there, Corn. In the case of abortion the father and mother get off scott free and in the case of birth the father and mother 'get puninshed' for eighteen years.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: mugsywwiii

Non religious folks have only the science without the confusion and guilt... it is a moral decision based on what THEY believe not what they are told to believe. I believe life is a continuation that exists as does energy Kinetic and potential and more. I would never consider ending that which has potential nor stiffle that which is kinetic. I believe that once the ball is rolling it overcomes the friction of discord and becomes,.... potentially even the MD who saves my life or the Senator who defeats Bush the third.
In any event, even though a Christian, I live in a country that provides certain rights and I support my neighbors right to see it 180 degrees differn't.

Woah... too philosophical for my blood.

Then you have won the day. Simplicity finds no discord. It is or it isn't. I try to think that way. Knowing little, I've but little choice.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
But it's perfectly OK to punish a man for being sexual by forcing him to pay for unwanted children for 18 years.........Nice double standard you have there.
-----------------------
No double standard there, Corn. In the case of abortion the father and mother get off scott free and in the case of birth the father and mother 'get puninshed' for eighteen years.

0wz0red!

 

[Moonbeam]

0wz0red!
------------------
Hehe, I'm waiting for Corn to come back and argue that the father should also be able to demand the abortion of the fetus if he wants. Fair is fair, right?

 

[SnapIT]

I have kids that i pay child support for, happily as i want them to be clothed and fed (i do pay more than i have to)... My ex is a biatch but my kids are the best thing i got, there is a difference...

I have also been at the hospital when my ex girfriend had an abortion, i am of the opinion that it is the womans choice, and as the "would be" father i went there with her even though we were not together at the time...

You think it is an easy choice? i don't... She needed my support, it was my responsibility too, and i did what i could... I am amazed at this conversation, i assume this forum is just filled with sociopaths (unable to imagine what other people would feel like in a given situation)...

I won't complain about child support, i won't complain about abortions, if you would, sterilize yourself you moron...

 

[Corn]

No double standard there, Corn. In the case of abortion the father and mother get off scott free and in the case of birth the father and mother 'get puninshed' for eighteen years.

It appears that you've misunderstood the argument given by GB, and as such my reply. Here it is, with emphasis added for your benefit:

I'm sorry,I don't feel the need to punish women for being sexual by forcing them to carry unwanted pregnancies to term.

My reply was in regard to the "why" for which said "punishment" was being dolled out. Her double standard was that it's fine to punish a man for being sexual (because, you know, lots of men are liars and screw over their women, it's their fault the women gets pregnant, etc.....) but not fine to punish the woman for the same "crime".

Hehe, I'm waiting for Corn to come back and argue that the father should also be able to demand the abortion of the fetus if he wants. Fair is fair, right?

Hehe, nope. Not even close. Why should a man dictate a woman obtain an abortion so long as he is not legally bound to support the child? This example of "fairness" is absurd. "fariness" dictates both be given an equal opportunity to rescind their responsibility for raising an unwanted children.

Don't get me wrong, I think that anyone who would shirk their responsibilities toward their children (no matter what stage of development) are disgusting pieces of sh1t. But if you are going to use "fairness" as your argument, well it better be "fair"........ Even though suffering may end up equitable, there is no fairness if both sides don't have the choice to suffer equally.

Of course this all goes back to a differing of opinion regarding the concept of fairness or equality between people like you and people like me, Moonie. The liberal concept of "fairness" is generally seen in terms of outcome, where us conservatives believe that fairness and equality is established with regard to choices and opportunity.

Don't project your interpretation of fairness as mine, k? Thanks.

 

[SnapIT]

Originally posted by: Corn

No double standard there, Corn. In the case of abortion the father and mother get off scott free and in the case of birth the father and mother 'get puninshed' for eighteen years.

It appears that you've misunderstood the argument given by GB, and as such my reply. Here it is, with emphasis added for your benefit:

I'm sorry,I don't feel the need to punish women for being sexual by forcing them to carry unwanted pregnancies to term.

My reply was in regard to the "why" for which said "punishment" was being dolled out. Her double standard was that it's fine to punish a man for being sexual (because, you know, lots of men are liars and screw over their women, it's their fault the women gets pregnant, etc.....) but not fine to punish the woman for the same "crime".

Hehe, I'm waiting for Corn to come back and argue that the father should also be able to demand the abortion of the fetus if he wants. Fair is fair, right?

Hehe, nope. Not even close. Why should a man dictate a woman obtain an abortion so long as he is not legally bound to support the child? This example of "fairness" is absurd. "fariness" dictates both be given an equal opportunity to rescind their responsibility for raising an unwanted children.

Don't get me wrong, I think that anyone who would shirk their responsibilities toward their children (no matter what stage of development) are disgusting pieces of sh1t. But if you are going to use "fairness" as your argument, well it better be "fair"........ Even though suffering may end up equitable, there is no fairness if both sides don't have the choice to suffer equally.

Of course this all goes back to a differing of opinion regarding the concept of fairness or equality between people like you and people like me, Moonie. The liberal concept of "fairness" is generally seen in terms of outcome, where us conservatives believe that fairness and equality is established with regard to choices and opportunity.

Don't project your interpretation of fairness as mine, k? Thanks.

Women and men are NOT equal, the strive to be equal physically is not even there, except in some deranged minds... Until men can choose to carry the wanted babies themselves they have no say...

Is that fair? Well, it is the way it is, it is a fact you cannot change, who cares if it is fair or not, it's like asking if it's fair that the trees are green when the sky gets to be blue, it is a fact, just the way it is, fair or not doesn't really matter...

If you are a REAL man, you will stand by women in their choices that concerns their bodies, that is, if you are a REAL man and not some childish little boy who yells "equality" as soon as you don't get to do what YOU want with other peoples bodies...

 

[Zebo]

If you are a REAL man, you will stand by women in their choices that concerns their bodies.

I would'nt stand by anyone that's selfish, but thats just me.

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: SnapIT

Originally posted by: Corn

No double standard there, Corn. In the case of abortion the father and mother get off scott free and in the case of birth the father and mother 'get puninshed' for eighteen years.

It appears that you've misunderstood the argument given by GB, and as such my reply. Here it is, with emphasis added for your benefit:

I'm sorry,I don't feel the need to punish women for being sexual by forcing them to carry unwanted pregnancies to term.

My reply was in regard to the "why" for which said "punishment" was being dolled out. Her double standard was that it's fine to punish a man for being sexual (because, you know, lots of men are liars and screw over their women, it's their fault the women gets pregnant, etc.....) but not fine to punish the woman for the same "crime".

Hehe, I'm waiting for Corn to come back and argue that the father should also be able to demand the abortion of the fetus if he wants. Fair is fair, right?

Hehe, nope. Not even close. Why should a man dictate a woman obtain an abortion so long as he is not legally bound to support the child? This example of "fairness" is absurd. "fariness" dictates both be given an equal opportunity to rescind their responsibility for raising an unwanted children.

Don't get me wrong, I think that anyone who would shirk their responsibilities toward their children (no matter what stage of development) are disgusting pieces of sh1t. But if you are going to use "fairness" as your argument, well it better be "fair"........ Even though suffering may end up equitable, there is no fairness if both sides don't have the choice to suffer equally.

Of course this all goes back to a differing of opinion regarding the concept of fairness or equality between people like you and people like me, Moonie. The liberal concept of "fairness" is generally seen in terms of outcome, where us conservatives believe that fairness and equality is established with regard to choices and opportunity.

Don't project your interpretation of fairness as mine, k? Thanks.

Women and men are NOT equal, the strive to be equal physically is not even there, except in some deranged minds... Until men can choose to carry the wanted babies themselves they have no say...

Is that fair? Well, it is the way it is, it is a fact you cannot change, who cares if it is fair or not, it's like asking if it's fair that the trees are green when the sky gets to be blue, it is a fact, just the way it is, fair or not doesn't really matter...

If you are a REAL man, you will stand by women in their choices that concerns their bodies, that is, if you are a REAL man and not some childish little boy who yells "equality" as soon as you don't get to do what YOU want with other peoples bodies...

But see, that is the real crux of the argument. Is that really their body, or the body of an entirely different entity?