Abortion...

[przero]

Geekbabe - In that case the choice by the woman not to have a child should have ended at the exact same time that the man's did!

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: przero
Geekbabe - In that case the choice by the woman not to have a child should have ended at the exact same time that the man's did!

Again,it is biology that dictates things here.The fetus resides in the woman's body and unless we're going to do things like outlaw IUD's and plain old birth control pills (which are used as "morning after " contraception
and have preggo police there's no practical way to enforce such a thing.

I find the attitudes of many men on this issue to be quite conflicting, abortion is evil in a country where internet porno is a booming business and most men won't continue a relationship if they aren't tapping that ass? The other side of this issue is that the majority of women do consult with their partners when the abortion choice is made,I'd bet thaty for most women who abort there's a relieved man out there,glad that
we do have a choice.

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
so the woman gets to decide after she knows for sure she is pregnant. The man has to live with her decision, even if it is the total opposite of what she has said before or what he wants personally, and he must make this "decision" before he even engages in the act which might produce the child. That hardly sounds like eqaul and fair protection under the law.

.

And women have to live with the risk that halfway thru a pregnancy that the dude's going to bail,in spite of whatever promises he made to her beforehand.

Also,pregnancy carries with it physical risk, the possibility even of death and however slight that risk might be it is born only by the woman.In my book,the one with their feet in the stirupps has to be the one with the final say.

Also ,many here seem to forget that the freedom to choose has also benefitted men, tens thousands of them who,along with their partners have been freed from the obligation to carry a pregnancy to term that neither of them wanted.

 

[przero]

Geekbabe - The biology is the same. the decision is the same. It's the excuse that's different?

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: przero
Geekbabe - The biology is the same. the decision is the same. It's the excuse that's different?

No,the level of bodily risk is what's different.No man,no matter what a wonderful father he might be will ever experience pregancy related illness or complications that can include death,the physical risks are born entirely by the mother.

 

[przero]

Then use the most effective birth control pill. An aspirin. Just hold it between your knees!
My point is to make the decision before the act, not after!

 

[Geekbabe]

Originally posted by: przero
Then use the most effective birth control pill. An aspirin. Just hold it between your knees!
My point is to make the decision before the act, not after!

Abortion is not a happy choice but our alternative is even less cheerful. As far as making the decision befgore having sex,that same rule could be applied to men.Btw, having actually been pregnant I can tell you that what you thought you wanted before hand is often different than what you feel after it happens for a whole host of reasons.

 

[LunarRay]

I don't mean to be crass here but, by analogy I'd state that to me a very anticipated banana split desert has little meaning to me until it is all together and in the dish waiting to be consumed. Likewise a fetus. Until it is a human it ain't.
Now, that is the rule I'd apply if I were King and got to do those things... but, my queen would not dare. It is called treason. That is, I'd not be unequally yoked... we pull together or we pull apart before the start.

 

[0roo0roo]

its all about drawing lines, rather arbitrary lines in many cases. is dough in a pan before i bake it a pizza? it "could" become a pizza, but it isn't a pizza, or so i say. you could say its round and a pizza anyways because you want it to be. you have to acknowledge there is a difference otherwise you lose all perspective. is a sperm half a human life? logically it is as a 2 cell egg is considered a human life by some. 2 sperm should equal a human, murder of such an attrocity. why not? its logical. why the arbitrary line in the sand that the sperm must meet the egg? if i cut you in half i don't stop calling you human, there are two parts of you. it might seem silly, but its no sillier then seeing a pinhead of cells as a full human being if looked at objectively.

it seems your the one that is dehumanizing human sperm and human eggs for sheer convenience.

and convenient that you bring up politics. people who clearly see good and evil in the world can't see the difference between a few cells and a born baby.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
its all about drawing lines, rather arbitrary lines in many cases. is dough in a pan before i bake it a pizza? it "could" become a pizza, but it isn't a pizza, or so i say. you could say its round and a pizza anyways because you want it to be. you have to acknowledge there is a difference otherwise you lose all perspective. is a sperm half a human life? logically it is as a 2 cell egg is considered a human life by some. 2 sperm should equal a human, murder of such an attrocity. why not? its logical. why the arbitrary line in the sand that the sperm must meet the egg? if i cut you in half i don't stop calling you human, there are two parts of you. it might seem silly, but its no sillier then seeing a pinhead of cells as a full human being if looked at objectively.

it seems your the one that is dehumanizing human sperm and human eggs for sheer convenience.

and convenient that you bring up politics. people who clearly see good and evil in the world can't see the difference between a few cells and a born baby.

Analogies aren't really going to help this argument. I could take your analogy and say that no it is not a pizza and will not become a pizza until you put it in the oven (before which it is "unfertilized"), but once you put it in the oven it inevitably will become a pizza, unless you prematurely remove it from the oven. And I really hate it when people prematurely remove my pizza from the oven... the cheese should not be white, it should be golden brown... GOLDEN BROWN! But like I said, analogies aren't really going to help this argument I think.

I also think you're missing the fact that two sperm cannot form a living human being; if they could, then saying men can't get pregnant would become irrelevent, because men would all become pregant with millions of babies at a time. No offense to you, but your argument is not very logical. The reason that fertilization of the egg is chosen is because that is the point at which life begins and the human begins to develop.

About the debate over abortion... I don't think it's really going to change many people's minds; people don't generally want to change their minds. We've all heard all of the arguments from each side, and we all disagree with everything the other side says. At most, debating it will prevent people from CHANGING their opinions. And I guess that makes it worth debating. I'll tell you what, I'm an evangelical Christian, and I don't really understand why other Christians try so hard to legislate morality. It's not going to work. I think it was Virginia Military Academy that was in the news recently because a federal court ordered them to stop having the chaplain pray before meals. Christians were outraged by this. You can't force people to be Christians, and forcing them to participate in a group prayer (by standing and listening) isn't going to make them wnat to become Christians. Just let people make their own (hopefully informed) decision. We won't find out who was right until we're dead.

 

[0roo0roo]

I also think you're missing the fact that two sperm cannot form a living human being; if they could, then saying men can't get pregnant would become irrelevent, because men would all become pregant with millions of babies at a time. No offense to you, but your argument is not very logical. The reason that fertilization of the egg is chosen is because that is the point at which life begins and the human begins to develop.

i thought about editing it to say a sperm and a egg, but figured it wouldn't make too much of a difference since i was argueing they were half a human being according to the extreme standard of human life. biologically i am correct, half the dna in each is human, so its half a human. you can say that a egg has "potential" to grow into a human if allowed to, but thats the same potential a separate egg and sperm have, just a stage farther back. this according to the reasoning that there is no difference between a born human being and a 1 second old fertilized egg.

and i basically agree with your last paragraph, which is why i'm prochoice. if you don't think abortion is right, don't have abortion. forcing your views on other is the pro lifes position which just rubs me wrong.

no one that doesn't adopt children has any right to complain about it anyways.

 

[KK]

I think that the woman should be the one given the right to choose abortion or not. She's the one the the fetus depends on solely. The man should have little sayso if any. He should know where the woman stands on the issue before dunking the sausage. If he doesn't like the decision she makes then he needs to find someone that will bear his offspring. On the issue of how late into the pregnancy you should be able to terminate, I'd have to say if the child can survive outside the womb, be it on a respirator or not, then it's too late. How many weeks into the pregnacy that is, I'm not sure. If women want an abortion it should happen as early as possible.

Just my opinions.

KK

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

i thought about editing it to say a sperm and a egg, but figured it wouldn't make too much of a difference since i was argueing they were half a human being according to the extreme standard of human life. biologically i am correct, half the dna in each is human, so its half a human. you can say that a egg has "potential" to grow into a human if allowed to, but thats the same potential a separate egg and sperm have, just a stage farther back. this according to the reasoning that there is no difference between a born human being and a 1 second old fertilized egg.

Well, the fertilized egg doesn't need any intervention in order to develop into a full human being; a separate sperm and egg do. That's the difference.

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: konichiwa
The assertion that life begins at conception is rediculous. Anyone who's ever studied Biology and human fetal development could tell you that at the moment of conception, the "child" is nothing more than a gnat. If you believe that abortion of a "fetus" (although it's not that) at conception is immoral, I sure hope you've never wasted any "seed" either because then you've committed half of a murder (aggravated assault maybe?).

It is a potential human.

No matter how hard you try, you'll never get a sperm to grow up to be a peron. Same with an unfertilized egg.

But from conception on the fetus is a potential human. That is why people draw the line there.

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: datalink7

Originally posted by: konichiwa
The assertion that life begins at conception is rediculous. Anyone who's ever studied Biology and human fetal development could tell you that at the moment of conception, the "child" is nothing more than a gnat. If you believe that abortion of a "fetus" (although it's not that) at conception is immoral, I sure hope you've never wasted any "seed" either because then you've committed half of a murder (aggravated assault maybe?).

It is a potential human.

No matter how hard you try, you'll never get a sperm to grow up to be a peron. Same with an unfertilized egg.

But from conception on the fetus is a potential human. That is why people draw the line there.

True, also true is that cows are potential humans also. We eat them(well most normal people do ) and the material we consume makes up what we are, therefore cows(along with everything else we eat) could be part of a potential human. So if we don't kill cows then thats causing abortions. So is PETA for abortions?

I'll stop rambling now.

KK

 

[Moonbeam]

When is the moment of conception, is it when the sperm touches the egg, when it releases a chemicle to puncture the eggs outer membrane, when it enters, when the DNA start to realign, when that finishes, when the cell starts to divide? Say it's the moment the sperm touches the egg, what is so special about that moment and a moment before when it was a millionth of an inch away. There is actually nothing different or special about a fertilzed human or donkey egg. You couldn't tell the difference without science. And a fertilized egg is just hydrogen and nitrogen and sulfer and carbon and oxygen and a few other elements aranged in a particular way that took billions of years of random events to produce. What gives a fertilized egg special significance is the human mind, the imagination. The facts say otherwise.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What gives a fertilized egg special significance is the human mind, the imagination. The facts say otherwise.

You mean your INTERPRETATION of the facts, a.k.a. your opinion, which clearly is not shared by all scientists.

 

[Corn]

........a fertilized egg is just hydrogen and nitrogen and sulfer and carbon and oxygen and a few other elements aranged in a particular way that took billions of years of random events to produce.

The same could be said of a fully grown human......

 

[Moonbeam]

Quote

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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What gives a fertilized egg special significance is the human mind, the imagination. The facts say otherwise.
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You mean your INTERPRETATION of the facts, a.k.a. your opinion, which clearly is not shared by all scientists.
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mugs, surely you can see that it is yours statement that is more the opinion. I supported mine with data and fact, a context. All you did was blather. How is my statement not factual and what scientists? Otherwise I will be tempted to state the final word on the subject and announce to all the world that you are simply and flat out wrong.
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Quote

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........a fertilized egg is just hydrogen and nitrogen and sulfur and carbon and oxygen and a few other elements arranged in a particular way that took billions of years of random events to produce.
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The same could be said of a fully grown human......
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Yes it could. Something to think about eh? You doubtless have no problem trimming your nails, shedding skin, or giving a pint of blood, but your life you feel differently about. It's your imagination, no?, some sense of your own unique and separate identity, that identity which isn't present in a fertilized egg except but by your projection. This self, a figment of your imagination to begin with, since it isn't the real you, right? hehe, is a localized and particular phenomenon of only some four score and seven years, no? Are you not a pile of chemicals having a dream that you exist. As long as we are dreaming who gets to make the rules? How did it come to pass that one pile of chemicals came to define the existence of another pile. It's all very strange.

 

[Alistar7]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe

Originally posted by: przero
Then use the most effective birth control pill. An aspirin. Just hold it between your knees!
My point is to make the decision before the act, not after!

Abortion is not a happy choice but our alternative is even less cheerful. As far as making the decision befgore having sex,that same rule could be applied to men.Btw, having actually been pregnant I can tell you that what you thought you wanted before hand is often different than what you feel after it happens for a whole host of reasons.

well at least you are a woman, so when your feelings change after the fact you still have the legal protection men do not to take a different course, remember what happened to Moon's baby, his wife changed her mind too and he had no choice but to sit idly by while the child he wanted was aborted, he never changed his mind though. Tens of thousands of good, loving, hopefull fathers have watched their children be aborted as they had no legal right to do anything else, that is far worse than millions of mutually decided abortions, at least both parents had an equal say there.

I do not think abortion is evil, I am not a religious person. I just think it's hypocritical to not give men the same rights to their children and even the choice of being a parent, but at the same time hold them to the same level of responsibilty based on someone else's decsions they cannot control, which may be totally different that they were led to believe would be their actions, you yourself said it all changes after you are pregnant. How does it change for the father? That's when his rights go out the window and the mother suddenly controls his future and his rightfull decision to be parent or not. Consenting to sex is not consenting to having your possible progeny aborted.

Even if the man does bolt, he is still required to support that child and the Govt. will force him to comply. What does the state do about a child he wanted to keep but you did not? Pays for it's death and protects your right to do so, I see the utter unfairness and how men have it so easy..

 

[Corn]

You doubtless have no problem trimming your nails, shedding skin, or giving a pint of blood....

Of course not, becuase none of these things causes a human, developing or fully developed, to cease living. Neither will my nails, dry skin, or my blood, if left intact become a human being seperate from myself.

Moonie, you go on rationalizing your support for murder if it eases your conscience. You'll have to pardon me for my feelings of disgust and contempt against those that murder, or support murder, simply for the sake of convenience.

 

[Moonbeam]

Yours is an easy problem, Alistar, if you don't like the conditions, don't have kids, or if you do take the risk, live with it. You are simply bowing to a genetic imperative. The dice were rolled when you were conceived and you came up male. That means you won't be making decisions about the birth or non birth of your children. Whine to the Fates. It's not unlike living with the knowledge that Gore actually won.

 

[Alistar7]

Then make women live with the fate of their decisons......

equal rights and protection for anyone being held to an equal standard of responsibility.

Corn, a bit of advice, Koni will not debate you, she will however, attack you personally with much fervor.

 

[Moonbeam]

You'll have to pardon me for my feelings of disgust and contempt against those that murder, or support murder, simply for the sake of convenience.
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I do pardon you, Corn. I know full well how attached you are to illusion. It's just that we can't have your fantasy making law that enslaves other human beings who were born purely by chance female. Because of the accidental evolution of sexual reproduction divided between two sexes, we can't have the half that donates sperm deciding the 9 month or 18 year prison sentence like commitment of others if they are unwilling and see it as such. We can't have them running into allies to die for your illusion. Every one of your cells could be cloned into another Corn but you pay them no mind. You don't imagine in that direction, but you attach meaning to the fertilized egg because of it's potential. Every element, every particle of air, has the potential to be life. Where is that life. What is it. What makes it special compared to a chemists reagents. Your imagination, that is all. You just have a big ego and a lot of self importance. No problem as long as you don't inject it into the lives of others. When did you become a Nanny of the state? The persistance of your illusion can't be allowed to ruin the lives of women whose genetic commitment to her offspring you can never make. Your point of view is and should remain irrelivant Unfortunately you are not man enough to see that. Why not make a world into which no woman would not wish her child to be born.

 

[Moonbeam]

Then make women live with the fate of their decisons......
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But of course, Alistar. Any woman who chooses to have an abortion will have to live with the fate of their decisions.