ABORTION - Why we know what we're doing is wrong.

[Elledan]

<< ...most basic reasoning..."

That there's already too many misfits and poor in the world, so we might as well terminate them before they're even born? No, that's too deep for me! >>


I challenge you to quote the parts of my post which say those things. You won't find any.

I only made the following points:

- prevention is preferrable. Pregnancy should be more closely regulated, in order to prevent unnecessary abortions.
- There should be a limit to the number of Humans which can live on this planet. This limit should be monitored by an international committee, which would function independently from all individual countries.
- Humans are not superior to other animals.

 

[Jzero]

<< This limit should be monitored by an international committee, which would function independently from all individual countries. >>


Whoa!
Stop right there. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Do not continue without a "sanity check."
By the time we get sovereign nations to willingly conform to the rulings of a theoretically impartial international committee, the natural forces will have stepped in long ago.
Secondly, if humans are not superior to animals, than it is unreasonable to believe that they could legislate their way out of natural population control.

 

[Ornery]

"This limit should be monitored by an international committee, which would function independently from all individual countries."

Well, we're over the limit... now what?

Edit: This was a topic about abortion, wasn't it?

 

[ThisIsMatt]

<< - Humans are not superior to other animals. >>

riiiight. No other species has nearly the same level of awareness or social conscious.

 

[Elledan]

<< "This limit should be monitored by an international committee, which would function independently from all individual countries."

Well, we're over the limit... now what? >>

The number of allowed pregnancies would become lower, so that less children will be born and the population will decrease in size.



<< Edit: This was a topic about abortion, wasn't it? >>

In case you don't understand: the issue of 'abortion' is much larger than one would think at first sight.

 

[xirtam]

<< There should be a limit to the number of Humans which can live on this planet. This limit should be monitored by an international committee, which would function independently from all individual countries. >>



How are they going to control it?

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< - Humans are not superior to other animals. >>

riiiight. No other species has nearly the same level of awareness or social conscious. >>

Okay, you fell for it. I knew someone like you would reply.

Humans might mentally be more advanced than most animals, yet physically they're terribly lacking. No animal can ever be superior to all other animals in every area.

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< There should be a limit to the number of Humans which can live on this planet. This limit should be monitored by an international committee, which would function independently from all individual countries. >>



How are they going to control it? >>

Control what?

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< This limit should be monitored by an international committee, which would function independently from all individual countries. >>


Whoa!
Stop right there. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Do not continue without a "sanity check."
By the time we get sovereign nations to willingly conform to the rulings of a theoretically impartial international committee, the natural forces will have stepped in long ago. >>

It won't be easy, correct. I don't see it happen for a long time either. Mostly because Humans are so irrational. Logic simply eludes them.


<< Secondly, if humans are not superior to animals, than it is unreasonable to believe that they could legislate their way out of natural population control. >>

Humans are mentally superior to other animals (as far as we know, of course), which invalidates your argument.

 

[ThisIsMatt]

<<

<<

<< - Humans are not superior to other animals. >>

riiiight. No other species has nearly the same level of awareness or social conscious. >>

Okay, you fell for it. I knew someone like you would reply.

Humans might mentally be more advanced than most animals, yet physically they're terribly lacking. No animal can ever be superior to all other animals in every area. >>

Okay, you fell for it, I knew that would be your response. Who gives a crap about physical ability? A lion is superior to me? I don't think so. How many lions do you know who share relationships with other lions, who work for 50% of their lives and kick back the rest, who have gone into space or cured life threatening illness?

 

[Ornery]

In case you don't understand: the issue of 'rational monitoring' is much larger than one would think at first sight.

Edit: Can't wait to hear how this ties in to the topic...

 

[ThisIsMatt]

<< It won't be easy, correct. I don't see it happen for a long time either. Mostly because Humans are so irrational. Logic simply eludes them. >>

Yeah, tell me about it...animals have such better logic...like yesterday as I was driving home, this squirrel ran out into the middle of the road right when I was driving by...I mean, he must have been committing suicide, it wouldn't be logical otherwise seeing as how my car is 1000x bigger and not very quiet...

 

[xirtam]

<< Mostly because Humans are so irrational. Logic simply eludes them. >>



I have seen the light! You are the alien. That's where your theory comes from.

Humans can be irrational. That's true. They're not irrational all the time, and sometimes they're accused of being irrational when they're really just understood. So... how does that tie in with ABORTION -- Why we know what we're doing is wrong? I'm not sure, but it makes for an interesting discussion.

 

[bandXtrb]

<< Mostly because Humans are so irrational. Logic simply eludes them. >>

How would you know if it's eluding you or not? and if it is, would your statement become illogical?

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< It won't be easy, correct. I don't see it happen for a long time either. Mostly because Humans are so irrational. Logic simply eludes them. >>

Yeah, tell me about it...animals have such better logic...like yesterday as I was driving home, this squirrel ran out into the middle of the road right when I was driving by...I mean, he must have been committing suicide, it wouldn't be logical otherwise seeing as how my car is 1000x bigger and not very quiet... >>


Where precisely did I state that animals are much more logical than Humans?

 

[Elledan]

<<

<<

<<

<< - Humans are not superior to other animals. >>

riiiight. No other species has nearly the same level of awareness or social conscious. >>

Okay, you fell for it. I knew someone like you would reply.

Humans might mentally be more advanced than most animals, yet physically they're terribly lacking. No animal can ever be superior to all other animals in every area. >>

Okay, you fell for it, I knew that would be your response. Who gives a crap about physical ability? A lion is superior to me? I don't think so. How many lions do you know who share relationships with other lions, who work for 50% of their lives and kick back the rest, who have gone into space or cured life threatening illness? >>


I'm not just talking about sharp claws and teeth. There are animals who possess amazing physical abilities, like a reptile which lives in a desert and manages to survive there, even with temperatures well below -10°C during the night. Every drop of water in its body is frozen, every night again, yet in the morning water becomes liquid again, and the animal goes looking for his breakfast.
There's an animal of the Varanidae family which has no immune system and with saliva poisonous through the large amounts of waste products from bacteria in the saliva. These animals live easily up to 100 years.

BTW, can you run as fast as a cheetah?

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< Mostly because Humans are so irrational. Logic simply eludes them. >>



I have seen the light! You are the alien. That's where your theory comes from. >>

I'm nothing like the average Human, that's true.



<< Humans can be irrational. That's true. They're not irrational all the time, and sometimes they're accused of being irrational when they're really just understood. >>

Like when I propose something which is perfectly logical, while all of you reject it because you think that it's irrational?


<< So... how does that tie in with ABORTION -- Why we know what we're doing is wrong? I'm not sure, but it makes for an interesting discussion. >>


Like I've said countless times before: abortion is merely a tool. Only the way in which we make use of it can be judged.

For example the question I asked much earlier in this thread and on which I never received any reply, a Siamese twin, who share on heart. They can't survive outside the womb, so either one is sacrificed, or they both die.

One, or both?

 

[Elledan]

<<

<< Mostly because Humans are so irrational. Logic simply eludes them. >>

How would you know if it's eluding you or not? and if it is, would your statement become illogical? >>


One can not explain logic in any language.

However, I know that at least most of my conclusions and decisions are perfectly logical.

 

[Elledan]

<< In case you don't understand: the issue of 'rational monitoring' is much larger than one would think at first sight. >>

Yes, of course it is, because 99.99% of all Humans are irrational. The voice of reason is smothered by the voices of this majority.

 

[bandXtrb]

In this motion, I hereby appoint Elledan to the International Population Committee as an ex officio member, to be held one week pursuant to rule of Council.

Elledan will then begin to consider reproductive issues with the Committee.

 

[Moonbeam]

I wouldn't think somebody named Cmin would want to involve himself anywhere withing a 1000 miles of a population control committee.

 

[Nemesis77]

<< You don't see any difference between killing cattle and killing babies?? >>



Why, yes I do. Cattle has the ability to feel pain, they can feel threatened, they can think, they can be afraid. 1 centimeter fetus has none of those abilities.

Like I said, we all kill millions of viruses with antibiotics. How many of us feel remorse because of that?

 

[chickendinner]

and whom are you to decide?

 

[Ornery]

"...1 centimeter fetus has none of those abilities."

If your wife is 7 months pregnant and loses the baby because of the negligence of a drunk driver, wouldn't you consider that vehicular homicide?

At this point in time, you could rip that child halfway out of the womb, suck it's brains out and throw it in the dumpster... legally! How many of us feel remorse because of that?

When is the 'fetus' large enough for you to consider it human? I'd hate to have to make that call.

 

[Elledan]

<< At this point in time, you could rip that child halfway out of the womb, suck it's brains out and throw it in the dumpster... legally! How many of us feel remorse because of that? >>


Abortion is a common practice by cattle. Cattle is sometimes killed shortly after birth as well, because it's physically malformed or in another way handicapped. Chickens are slaughered in the most brutal ways. Their feathers are pulled out and their heads ripped off while they're still alive.

There's no logical reason to have seperate ethics for Human life and 'other' life.