ABORTION - Why we know what we're doing is wrong.

[luv2chill]

<< "So where do you draw the line Ornery? Third trimester? Second? Day of conception?"

No way around it, we have to err on the side of caution. I wouldn't attempt to draw a line... I ain't God! >>

Nor am I. But that's the thing. Without any sort of conclusive definition there will always be disagreement. What do you personally feel about "human being" fetuses created from rape or other non-consentual sex? How about a third-trimester fetus that will endanger the mother's life? What degree of endangerment is an acceptable risk? What about clones?

For me, it comes down to this... let's worry about the human beings already born before we worry about the ones as yet unborn.



<< The law is the law. Civil rights are civil rights. The ACLU trys to cram THAT down our throats every day. Soon, just as slavery was abolished, abortion will be too. Better than half our population supported the "right" to own slaves at one point in time. I bet more than a few people are happy that was made illegal! >>



Again, in principle, your argument looks sound. But the slaves were conscious beings with free will, living and breathing on their own... already born into the world (in a completely different country, no less). You can't say the same for a fetus or embryo.

Hey, don't get me wrong. I don't condone abortion, but I'm a realist... enough so to see it as a necessary "evil" (and I don't mean evil in a biblical sense). Lives are lost senselessly every single day. Homicides, suicides, wars... a moral victory in making abortion illegal isn't going to do anything beneficial about the desparation many humans already feel.

Again, I'll state this... address the underlying socialogical problems in society and you'll see a decrease in civil rights violations. Enable people to love and respect themselves, and voila they gain the capacity to love and respect other people.

Your solution might be easier, but when has prohibiting something every made it stop? My solution would be extraordinarily difficult, but at least it has a snoball's chance in hell at actually solving a problem.

l2c

 

[Harvey]

lebe0024 -- I strongly disagree with you, but you are welcome to your opinon, but I think you are beyond presumtuous if you want to enforce your belief system on any female who chooses not to take a pregnancy to term. You just do not have that right, and I hope it stays that way.

Xenon14 -- << If I whack off, is that considered Genocide? >>

Don't waste it until you find out if there's a sperm bank that pays interest on your deposits.

 

[bandXtrb]

<< I'm not PRO-LIFE because it's advantageous for be to be so. Nor is abortion disadvantageous to me. That's not why I'm fighting it. If someone decides to kill their child, I AM DEEPLY GRIEVED. I simly don't want unborn children to be systematically wiped out. >>


Um, yes, they are disadvantageous if you say you are deeply grieved. To a mother who is not ready to have a child, it can be advantageous to have an abortion. In other words, there is really no "right" or "wrong", no "good" or "evil." Abortion, and everything else in the world, is just an inkblot for you to look at and label according to your beliefs.

The gruesomeness of abortion pales in comparison to the many living animals are slaughtered every day for our dinner under often cruel conditions. We don't abort, we cage, kill and EAT them. They don't experience the samething when being killed. The animals are being systematically wiped out. It seems very strange to me that pro-life people are okay with this "evil," but their blood starts boiling when you talk about women having the option to abort an unwanted unborn human baby. So very strange that I'd have to conclude that its based on your religious beliefs and proceed to tell you that church and state are separate in this country.

 

[Ornery]

" What do you personally feel about "human being" fetuses created from rape or other non-consentual sex?"

I'll go one further. I don't even give a damn about any of the kids being born to single mothers, who don't even know who the father is. I don't care about kids born to idiot parents unable to raise them properly, by teaching them how to be useful, self sufficient citizens. God knows the world would probably be better off without them! And I'll go one farther than that. Drown 'em in a burlap sack after they're born, what's the difference? The world will still be just as well off without them. They still haven't lived enough, or consciously enough to be aware... dispose of 'em! Hell, dispose of them even up to 1 year old. Same benefits!

As it is, the fifth Supreme Court Justice will be appointed. Roe V Wade will be overturned. It's just a matter of being consistent. The law, Civil Rights and Constitution are not concerned with what is convenient.

 

[ThisIsMatt]

Ornery, as much as I'd like to see it happen, I don't see it happening...

 

[luv2chill]

<< " What do you personally feel about "human being" fetuses created from rape or other non-consentual sex?"

I'll go one further. I don't even give a damn about any of the kids being born to single mothers, who don't even know who the father is. I don't care about kids born to idiot parents unable to raise them properly, by teaching them how to be useful, self sufficient citizens. God knows the world would probably be better off without them! And I'll go one farther than that. Drown 'em in a burlap sack after they're born, what's the difference? The world will still be just as well off without them. They still haven't lived enough, or consciously enough to be aware... dispose of 'em! Hell, dispose of them even up to 1 year old. Same benefits!

As it is, the fifth Supreme Court Justice will be appointed. Roe V Wade will be overturned. It's just a matter of being consistent. The law, Civil Rights and Constitution are not concerned with what is convenient. >>

Well as far as I'm concerned it's just another step in the wrong direction for this country. Time will be the true test. But I don't want to hear any head scratching and belly aching from pro-lifers when making abortion illegal fails to have any positive effect.

But of course there will be other election years and other SC justice appointments and overturning and more overturning. Politicians busy themselves with bureacracy in their stuffy wooden offices whilst everyone else lives out their lives in the real world. Just another day in the life.

l2c

P.S. Glad this has stayed civil for the most part.

 

[Ultima]

There's enough people in the world. You're not killing a person, you're just terminating a bunch of cells that can't think or feel. Big f*****g deal, really. Are you people ready to adopt orphans and homeless kids? I see you preaching but not practicing what you preach! Oh yeah, those human lives are SOOO precious to you... right.



<< CAUTION: This is a controversial subject (obviously). This is also a highly pro-life sermon. However, for those who would object that this is religious propaganda, the arguments presented do notcome from the bible (since the bible doesn't speak of abortion directly).

FATHER, FORGIVE, FOR WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING.htm

Audio MP3 recording of sermon. (over 30 min long)

edit:
Four years ago, I was a highschool senior and a passionate pro-life athiest (not simply prolife because of religious pressure). I had a girlfriend who I was sexually involved with. One night, I had unprotected sex with her. All that night I was terrified that she would become pregnant. I was SO TERRIFIED that my life would be different from that day on. I might not have been able to go to college, get a high paying job, etc. etc... I know many of you have experienced this fear, so you know what I'm talking about. We talked about our options if she would become pregnant. I had heard that they had "morning after" pills available, so I had her go to the doctor and get some. I felt the trapped feeling slipping away. She took the pills, and killed anything that might have conceived the night before. I killed any human that could have already started to develop. Some freedom. U2 once said in a song "What you thought was freedom, ended up to be bondage." I think that's often true. >>

 

[Ultima]

<<

<< Well...just because humans have thought processes and what not that are more advanced than other animals, we are still only animals. People kill deer, cattle, etc... I see no difference in killing humans. The only difference is way society perceives it....which is what makes it wrong. However, when it comes to the science part instead of the social part, I'm totally for it. Of course, this kind of thing affects everyone differently...for the record. I'm pro-choice. >>



OMG, please tell me you're being sarcastic.


You don't see any difference between killing cattle and killing babies?? >>


technically, is there? You're ending a life one way or another. It's perhaps natural instincts and definately society that keeps most people from even thinking about doing such a thing.

 

[zeon]

i will not read your article. i refuse to read propaganda in any and all forms. a woman should have the right to choose what she does with her body. stop trying to impose your christian morality on others. i'm sick of it.

 

[Nefrodite]

gah, thread so long, so so long.

anyways, if you say that at any stage its a full human being it should be issued full rights of a human being, bith cerificate? citizenship? if the mother dies during childbirth its involuntary homocide for the baby! woo! and if it dies as many do in natural abortions, natures cruelty really, then a funeral and all papers such as death certificate should be delt with. fertility treatments would then pretty much be banned so much for creating life there.

the nutz recently at a religious school were giving extra credit to protest at an abortion clinic they take the issue of a couple of cells and make it so sacred, untouchable, because its so easy for them. maybe a few rallys at aboriton clinics, you get to rally your church with religious fervor, but you really don't do much. there are millions of children dying around the world at insane rates, mortality rates for children in some places are pretty staggering, yet most of these pro lifers really don't give a damn. its easier to worry about all the unborn then deal with the dying living truely human beings. what does it boil down to? misplaced priorities, maybe its racist since many of those children are of other races. children dying, going blind, being crippled by landmines, used for labor, used as soldiers all around the world and we have nuts here all riled up about a group of cells.

it should be called the pro birth movement.


remember, adopt an older child, maybe one with problems from being shuffled around foster homes, not that newborn that has a near garrantee of being picked.

 

[lebe0024]

Nephrodite:
"anyways, if you say that at any stage its a full human being it should be issued full rights of a human being, bith cerificate? citizenship? if the mother dies during childbirth its involuntary homocide for the baby! woo! "

States That Prohibit Crimes Against the Unborn.

From link in first post:
"For example, in Minnesota in 1987, a teenage girl 6 ½ months pregnant went with her boyfriend on a suicide pact into the woods. She shot herself in the head, and he changed his mind and covered her over with brush and walked away. He was apprehended and charged with assisting a suicide and 'inadvertently murdering the fetus during the commission of a felony.' The fetal homicide law carried a stiffer penalty than assisting in a suicide. The verdict was upheld in 1991.

As I read about this in the newspaper one sentence leaped off the page because of its stunning implications. "The law makes it murder to kill an embryo or fetus intentionally, except in cases of abortion." Think about that for a moment. We have some laws that condemn the killing of a fetus as murder, and we have some laws that condone the killing of a fetus as abortion."

 

[mithrandir2001]

<< As it is, the fifth Supreme Court Justice will be appointed. Roe V Wade will be overturned. >>


And that shall sentence tens of thousands of women each year to dirty, back-alley abortions by shady "doctors". It disgusts me that the anti-choice crowd cares more about forming cell tissue than women.

If you don't like abortion, then you can educate women on why you don't like it. But banning the practice is no panacea and women will always have abortions because not all pregnancies should be brought to term. Keep abortion safe, clean and legal.

 

[lebe0024]

Then let's do something about it mithrandir. Let's you and I encourage eachother to be out there on the street helping women. We can hold eachother accountable. Both of us can commit our selves to it. I'm not being sarcastic.

You're absolutely right. All pro-choicers hit the nail right on the head when they say these things will happen.
1. Abortions performed on the black market, unsafely and by unqualified people.
2. More birth defects from people attempting to self-abort through alcohol, drugs, etc.
3. More unwanted children either being traded around foster homes or neglected by their natural parents.

Outlawing abortion is a small victory. It's really going to take ordinary people like you and me, mithrandir, to combat the issues that arise from unwanted pregnancies, no matter what the laws on abortion are. I think it takes societal support over laws to solve those three problems. Women don't have to despair and self abort there babies, there can be people that commit themselves to helping them. A lot of my female friends volenteer/work at New Life Family Services.

 

[TAsunder]

All you people who are talking about Roe v Wade... you realize if it were overturned it would just mean that individual states have the right to determine the legality of abortions, right? Overturning Roe v Wade does not constitute saying that all abortions are illegal.

 

[Ornery]

"Overturning Roe v Wade does not constitute saying that all abortions are illegal."

Children, yet to be born will be given the same civil rights as those just born. No state will be able to override that. The ACLU will be on their side then too!

A newborn doesn't know anything or contribute any more to society than a baby about to be born. To consider a pre-born as human, is NOT a stretch. I don't see any fiscal or social good coming from overturning Roe, but killing humans is wrong, like it or not. Nobody needs the protection of the Constitution more than defenseless babies. Overturning Roe WILL open a HUGE can of worms, but it's the right thing to do where human rights are concerned. Even the worst Taliban soldier is entitled to human rights, why not these babies?

 

[TAsunder]

Way to miss the point entirely.

 

[Ornery]

"...if it were overturned it would just mean that individual states have the right to determine the legality of abortions, right?"

Not if a pre-born is a citizen. Simple, no?

 

[TAsunder]

Here's my point. It's quite simple. Overturning Roe v Wade would not *necessarily* immediately grant fetuses equal rights as citizens. If you grant fetuses equal rights, that would overturn roe v wade. If that is your goal, say that you are hoping to grant fetuses equal rights, since there are immeasurable numbers of decisions that would overturn Roe v Wade but which would not grant fetuses equal rights. If you are still confused by this, I recommend reading the actual ruling of the supreme court.

Side note, the laws of citizenry would have to be changed too, since they currently refer to a "born" person.

 

[Elledan]

<< "Overturning Roe v Wade does not constitute saying that all abortions are illegal."

Children, yet to be born will be given the same civil rights as those just born. No state will be able to override that. The ACLU will be on their side then too!

A newborn doesn't know anything or contribute any more to society than a baby about to be born. To consider a pre-born as human, is NOT a stretch. I don't see any fiscal or social good coming from overturning Roe, but killing humans is wrong, like it or not. Nobody needs the protection of the Constitution more than defenseless babies. Overturning Roe WILL open a HUGE can of worms, but it's the right thing to do where human rights are concerned. Even the worst Taliban soldier is entitled to human rights, why not these babies? >>


If the prevention of pregnancies proves to be impossible, or extremely difficult, abortion might prove to be the only (temporary) solution.

Heck, we have set limits on how much of each species of fish can exist in a certain area. Same for other animals. Yet we don't seem to give a damn about how many Humans are born. Each day, 400,000 Humans are born. Why are we so reluctant to set some limits on the maximum number of Humans allowed to exist on this planet? Is this caused by the same superiority complex which makes us feel superior to other animals?

Either we set the limit, or Nature itself will show us the limit regarding the size of a population. Disease, hunger and violence will wipe out a large part of the Human population, after which we'll immediately forget what we've learned and continue to f-k like rabbits again?! Are we Humans truly that stupid?

Superior to other animals... Hah!

Offspring with a very low chance of survival should not be forced to live a miserable life, filled with pain, because that's morally and ethically unacceptable.
If the life of the mother is threatened by the pregnancy, the child must be aborted. As simple as that.


This world truly is one f-d up place...

 

[Ornery]

This is correct. Bottom line is, they will become citizens. The states will have no say in abortion when that comes to pass.

 

[TAsunder]

You still don't get it then? Let's take it from another angle. Say Roe v Wade never happened. Are you saying that if Roe v Wade never happened, fetuses would be considered citizens? Again, I urge you to read the actual decision.

I just realized maybe you were agreeing with me, and then prognosticating that they will be granted equal protection. In which case I say, I am not so sure this will happen.

 

[Ornery]

No sh!t Elledan, but why stop at abortion? I propose we start eliminating people systematically here and all over the world. We ought to be able to come up with some criteria to decide who goes first. GREAT IDEA!

 

[Ornery]

"Are you saying that if Roe v Wade never happened, fetuses would be considered citizens?"

No. But it may have come to pass eventually. Depends on what cases come before the court. Vehicular homicide would be an example. If somebody loses a child due to another driver's negligence, was it vehicular homicide? Or it might be brought about by other similar cases.

 

[Elledan]

<< No sh!t Elledan, but why stop at abortion? I propose we start eliminating people systematically here and all over the world. We ought to be able to come up with some criteria to decide who goes first. GREAT IDEA!

>>

You missed the whole point.

Are you really that stupid that you can't even comprehend the most basic reasoning, or are you merely trolling?

 

[Ornery]

...most basic reasoning..."

That there's already too many misfits and poor in the world, so we might as well terminate them before they're even born? No, that's too deep for me!