Abortion under attack again?

[MichaelMay]

If a law gives a citizen a right to sue, can that law be upheld even if there is no standing for the suing citizen (or do I not standing correctly?)

For instance. If congress creates a law that says ordinary citizens may sue gun sellers and gun manufacturers for any gun used in a crime, would that work?

Let’s go a step further; let’s say the law bans all guns but it isn’t to be enforced by any government but it allows individual citizens to sue gun owners, manufactures, and resellers, would that be just as valid as this abortion law?

For gun ownership why not do what the Swiss do. It's the favorite nation of all 2A guys to compare the US to but the thing is. They have guns, LOADS of guns, they are even handed fully automatic rifles as part of their duty to their nation.

What they don't tell you is that you can't have any ammo for them, ammo is stored at the base or the range.

That's easy enough, the 2A says NOTHING about ammunition and the "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" people can't really whine about that since they are originalists against interpreting the constitution or viewing it as a living document (as it was intended to be).

Try that?

 

[SMOGZINN]

If a law gives a citizen a right to sue, can that law be upheld even if there is no standing for the suing citizen (or do I not standing correctly?)

For instance. If congress creates a law that says ordinary citizens may sue gun sellers and gun manufacturers for any gun used in a crime, would that work?

Let’s go a step further; let’s say the law bans all guns but it isn’t to be enforced by any government but it allows individual citizens to sue gun owners, manufactures, and resellers, would that be just as valid as this abortion law?

I mean, yes. That is what this law does. If this law is allowed to stand then it will be open season on anything politicians want to ban. Guns, Free Speech, People that part their hair on the left.

My guess is that if they choose to uphold this law SCOTUS is going to write an extremely narrow opinion on this that is going to require some real mental and linguistic gymnastics to
pull off. It is going to basically say that this exact wording is okay in this exact situation, but no other.

 

[cytg111]

For gun ownership why not do what the Swiss do. It's the favorite nation of all 2A guys to compare the US to but the thing is. They have guns, LOADS of guns, they are even handed fully automatic rifles as part of their duty to their nation.

What they don't tell you is that you can't have any ammo for them, ammo is stored at the base or the range.

That's easy enough, the 2A says NOTHING about ammunition and the "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED" people can't really whine about that since they are originalists against interpreting the constitution or viewing it as a living document (as it was intended to be).

Try that?

I've "heard" that people be buying 5.56 or whatever hunting rifles to around the ammo thing. That means a hunting license on top of course.

 

[Ajay]

You folks realize, the fundies will NEVER stop trying to ban abortion...right?

Correct.

Awful lot of fuss over what's supposedly "settled law", doncha think?

Those on my side (pro-life**), put too much time and money into fighting pro-abortion for these laws to ever be truly settled.

** And yes, too many 'pro-lifers' really only care about abortion, not all the other pro-life stuff (cradle to grave).

 

[MichaelMay]

I've "heard" that people be buying 5.56 or whatever hunting rifles to around the ammo thing. That means a hunting license on top of course.

Probably not 5.56, it's mainly a people killing round but 7.62 and stored in a class 3 safe and then any gun you have where it fits will have to be stored in another class 3 safe.

To get a hunting license you need to own land where you can hunt or have someone allow you to hunt on their land as well. It's basically the same as here in Germany.

 

[cytg111]

Probably not 5.56, it's mainly a people killing round but 7.62 and stored in a class 3 safe and then any gun you have where it fits will have to be stored in another class 3 safe.

To get a hunting license you need to own land where you can hunt or have someone allow you to hunt on their land as well. It's basically the same as here in Germany.

What? You have to own land? Not here, just north of you, Scandinavia, you can own and range all you want with a hunters license and never have to go on an actual days hunting in your life. Sweden Norway Denmark… not sure about Finland but I assume its even more “liberal” there.

And I know it is… try googling 5.56 hunting rifle, see what comes up. Also for your 7.62 needs a little planning 308 will take you a long way.
Its just most “national guard” issued full burst assault rifles in Europe are 5.56… Hence the 223 hunting rifle.

 

[MichaelMay]

What? You have to own land? Not here, just north of you, Scandinavia, you can own and range all you want with a hunters license and never have to go on an actual days hunting in your life. Sweden Norway Denmark… not sure about Finland but I assume its even more “liberal” there.

And I know it is… try googling 5.56 hunting rifle, see what comes up. Also for your 7.62 needs a little planning 308 will take you a long way.
Its just most “national guard” issued full burst assault rifles in Europe are 5.56… Hence the 223 hunting rifle.

No, you actually need a place where you can hunt to get a hunting license, you can get a sport shooting license to target shoot.

I am very well aware of the 5.56 rifles (that's a .223 which is used for vermin and smaller prey) and the 7.62 is .308 it's the same caliber but the difference is that we here in Germany do not use inches and neither do you so calling it .308 makes no sense what so ever. Especially since it's commonly the NATO 7.62x51 which even the 'muricans will refer to as the 7.62 round.

Europe has no "national guard" that is specially equipped. Every nation has a standing army and a reserve army and they all use some version of the same weapon (or in some cases an older rifle using the 7.62 NATO round).

The .223 round is not the same as the 5.56 NATO though, it's similar but not the same. Also the word you are looking for is automatic and not "full burst" and pretty much all of them are semi, three round burst and fully automatic select fire, at least all of the ones I've seen are.

Back in the day we had variants of the G3 all over and it was semi or full auto but unless you are my size those guns get unwieldy even though they are far more accurate weapons for the most part.

 

[ondma]

I don't agree at all. One of the sitting Supreme Court Justice's wife helped setup the Insurrection, and all 3 of the recent additions are anti-abortion to the point that was likely the singular reason they were chosen. I expect they'll do something to basically say "abortion is still legal" but allow states to effectively keep whittling it down further. They want to effectively ban abortion without actually doing it.

I think this was also one of the goals of Republicans getting a super majority on the court. Imagine if they restrict abortion while Democrats are President and they supposedly have control of Congress. Then Republicans can run attack ads saying how Biden restricted abortion rights. Obviously, we know who actually did, but for the morons that need to argue about how Democrats are the actual evil for liberals, it allows them the "gotcha". They go " doesn't matter if its Republican or Democrat, we'll keep taking your abortion rights away, so you might as well vote on other issues then." Don't be surprised if they run ads going "since you can't get an abortion, better make sure you don't get raped, the Dems love rapists and taking away your protection [guns]"

That makes absolutely no sense. The last thing the Republicans are going to do is to accuse the Democrats of taking away abortion rights. It would only make Democrats more appealing to the Rep base, and possibly siphon away votes. And it wont drive away democrats either, as they wont buy into the conservative media. Come on, one of the strongest attack vectors for Republicans is that Democrats are not tough enough on abortion.

 

[cytg111]

No, you actually need a place where you can hunt to get a hunting license, you can get a sport shooting license to target shoot.

I am very well aware of the 5.56 rifles (that's a .223 which is used for vermin and smaller prey) and the 7.62 is .308 it's the same caliber but the difference is that we here in Germany do not use inches and neither do you so calling it .308 makes no sense what so ever. Especially since it's commonly the NATO 7.62x51 which even the 'muricans will refer to as the 7.62 round.

Europe has no "national guard" that is specially equipped. Every nation has a standing army and a reserve army and they all use some version of the same weapon (or in some cases an older rifle using the 7.62 NATO round).

The .223 round is not the same as the 5.56 NATO though, it's similar but not the same. Also the word you are looking for is automatic and not "full burst" and pretty much all of them are semi, three round burst and fully automatic select fire, at least all of the ones I've seen are.

Back in the day we had variants of the G3 all over and it was semi or full auto but unless you are my size those guns get unwieldy even though they are far more accurate weapons for the most part.

Nope, reserve isnt ~ national guard. I dont know what to call it but national guard, we operate just like our US counterparts and even have corporation units in the US where join up once per year, and do joint exercises get to know each others sop’s, faces etc.
Reserves arent “active”.

Its sort of the same, you can go 223 -> 5.56 but not the other way around.. well at your own risc anyway .

Hunting licenses work way different Germany then. Damn.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Those on my side (pro-life**), put too much time and money into fighting pro-abortion for these laws to ever be truly settled.

** And yes, too many 'pro-lifers' really only care about abortion, not all the other pro-life stuff (cradle to grave).

Who's pro-abortion?

 

[sportage]

I gotta admit here that I have changed my views and opinion on abortion.
What changed me was googling the development of a fetus at the week where some states seek to impose a ban. 15 weeks seems to be a popular timeline for states to set bans and so I googled a fetus at 15 weeks to see what that looks like, and the same for a fetus at 6 weeks. And I just couldn't continue to go along with aborting at 6 weeks nor at 15 weeks. Frankly, I'm to the point of no aborting at all unless it is done immediately say with using the morning after pill.

But what pisses me off are states that impose bans yet reject the financial responsibly that the state has and the taxpayers must have to give that mother a financial safety net when so needed. You can't be for banning abortion yet too cheap as a state and as a pro-life taxpayer to fully support the public assistance that must come after. If the woman is basically force to come to term and give birth then people had better be ready and willing to cough up the money in the form of taxes and assistance for that mother and for that child. And we're talking a full 18 years of assistance. You can't have it both ways, to be pro-life but against public assistance. And Mr and Mrs pro-lifer, raising a child is very expensive, so you'd damn well better be willing to put your tax money where your F-ing religious beliefs are. There is nothing more disgusting than a cheap pro-lifer or a republican ran state that passes abortion bans yet cuts assistance.

 

[cytg111]

If the woman is basically force to come to term lifer or a republican ran state that passes abortion bans yet cuts assistance.

Check yourself.
I mean it. Check your self.
What gender are you?
Male?
Then shut the fuck up. Pipe back and shut the fuck up.
Any man that votes against abortion rights is a piece of shit. Oppressing piece of shit.

 

[Pohemi]

There is nothing more disgusting than a cheap pro-lifer or a republican ran state that passes abortion bans yet cuts assistance.

That sounds like most red states, or at least where most red states wish they were with their laws. It's exactly what most conservatives believe in.

 

[Ajay]

Who's pro-abortion?

Pro-choice? I always thought that was an odd moniker (like, in the US, most things are a 'choice' by default).

 

[Fenixgoon]

Pro-choice? I always thought that was an odd moniker (like, in the US, most things are a 'choice' by default).

while it may come off as semantics, there is an important difference between "pro abortion" and "pro choice"

"pro abortion" = i want abortions to occur
"pro choice" = i want women to have the ultimate choice in whether they bring a pregnancy to term or seek an abortion, and it should be safe, accessible, and free of interference.

the two best things we can do to reduce the number of abortions are to improve our sex education (because it's comically bad) and ensure that contraception for men AND women is both low-cost and readily available.

edit: clarified a point

 

[ch33zw1z]

while it may come off as semantics, there is an important difference between "pro abortion" and "pro choice"

"pro abortion" = i want abortions to occur
"pro choice" = i want women to have the ultimate choice in whether they bring a pregnancy to term or seek an abortion, and it should be safe, accessible, and free of interference.

the two best things we can do to reduce the number of abortions are to improve our sex education (because it's comically bad) and ensure that contraception for men AND women is both low-cost and readily available.

edit: clarified a point

Pretty much. The distinction between the words "choice" and "abortion" is pretty drastic. People that attack a woman's right to choose will use the "pro-abortion" label to paint that person a certain way.

@Ajay - does that clear it up for you?

 

[darkswordsman17]

Pro-choice? I always thought that was an odd moniker (like, in the US, most things are a 'choice' by default).

Of course you do because you're anti-choice.

 

[Stokely]

As an aside to a minor point, according to this article Switzerland is not exactly swimming in guns compared to many others.

Estimated number of civilian guns per capita by country - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Switzerland is at 27.6 guns per 100 people. They are 19th on the list.

The US is far and away the top dog at 120.5

 

[Ajay]

Of course you do because you're anti-choice.

Nah, if you choose to smoke weed, I'm fine with that .

 

[Ajay]

Pretty much. The distinction between the words "choice" and "abortion" is pretty drastic. People that attack a woman's right to choose will use the "pro-abortion" label to paint that person a certain way.

@Ajay - does that clear it up for you?

Yes. Still think there needs to be a better term, but this is the way it is.

 

[nakedfrog]

Yes. Still think there needs to be a better term, but this is the way it is.

Well, "pro-government-legislating-control-over-basic-human-reproductive-rights-based-on-religion" and "anti-government-legislating-control-over-basic-human-reproductive-rights-based-on-religion" doesn't roll off the tongue well.

 

[ondma]

Yes. Still think there needs to be a better term, but this is the way it is.

Personally, I dont like either term "pro choice" or "pro life". Both are oversimplified buzzwords for what is to me, a very complex issue.

 

[ch33zw1z]

Yes. Still think there needs to be a better term, but this is the way it is.

Personally, I dont like either term "pro choice" or "pro life". Both are oversimplified buzzwords for what is to me, a very complex issue.

I agree, but it's really what it boils down to. Do you support a women's right to choose? then you're pro choice. Don't support it? you're anti-choice.

One could make the argument that abortion was an option before roe vs wade, in order to support their take on the "choice" issue. But it's just another red herring to distract from the main point. A woman has the right to make that choice, and our societal role should make that a safe and viable option.

Do I personally agree with getting abortions? No. But I also don't assume others aren't fit to make that choice, or are in the same circumstance as me.

We should make every effort to promote unwanted pregnancy prevention.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Nah, if you choose to smoke weed, I'm fine with that .

I like how you're mad that I more truthfully represented your "side" than you do the other by calling pro-Choice people as "pro abortion", which was exactly my point. I could take it further and call you anti-women, anti-medical science, among many other aspects that are true with regards to people that oppose abortion.

Also, you don't actually support that as your anti-Choice stance makes it exceptionally likely that you support politicians that are also anti-weed, so you again misrepresent both your own and whatever you perceive as my side. I'm guessing you're just as full of shit about being fine with that.

Like I said, of course you don't understand because you don't even understand your own "side", and fundamentally cannot understand the one you oppose because you can't even understand basic facts.

 

[Ajay]

I like how you're mad that I more truthfully represented your "side" than you do the other by calling pro-Choice people as "pro abortion", which was exactly my point. I could take it further and call you anti-women, anti-medical science, among many other aspects that are true with regards to people that oppose abortion.

You don't read my other posts do you? You keep doing this shit - assuming you know who I am; so for clarity's sake - you don't. The only thing that make irritates me here is your continued misrepresentation of my beliefs. You don't know that I vote mostly democratic. You don't know that I am a trained scientist and engineer. You don't know that my 'side' is the tradition Catholic, cradle to grave pro-life stance. Not, 'oh, you're born now - bootstraps baby'. I know my side well - it's just not the side that you think it is. If I get you 'side' wrong - it is in fact because I don't understand it; I'm not part of that group - duh. At least other's here have the decency to explain things to me.

Anyway, kindly pay attention to what I post around these forums or, you can kindly go fuck off.