Abortion Billboards

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: HomeBrewerDude

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Zebo
I don't really have that much of a problem with guys taking out abortion doctors to save a life. Yes it should be illegal, but I still admire them, greatly. Pfft a couple signs boohoo.

Wow. That is one of the most f'd up sentiments I've heard around here in quite a while.

Why's that? If your neighbor was trying to kill his son I'd hope you shoot the dad before he could, the cops would. Same deal to us just different ages.

I perfectly understand that someone would believe that life starts at conception and therefore abortion is killing. I don't understand how someone can be so arrogant in that belief that they can justify what you propose/admire/respect. IF you are so certain that abortion is such a sin, then why don't you just let God take care of things? Oh yeah....here comes the part about being God's instrument, and being morally obligated to uphold God's law over the government's law. The only problem is that you don't live in a religious state. You live in a democracy where its the letter of the law that defines whats criminally and civilly acceptable. If you don't like it then perhaps you should go live somewhere else.

I said it was a noble goal/... admire is not the right words.

Have I mentioned God once in this thread? You can be perfrectly agnostic and even atheist and feel the same way.

as for your crap about "being gods instrument" That's just BS and you know it. "Don't like slavery, don't own one" "Don't like the holocaust, don't kill a Jew." We as humans have every right to stop percieved injustices. Sometimes the law is too slow or not any good and we do what right anyway, called "civil disobediance" and pay the consequences for our actions. It's too bad babies don't have anyone to speak for them, or we would have divisions out there stopping this halocaust like we did in Germany 60 years ago.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: HomeBrewerDude

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Zebo
I don't really have that much of a problem with guys taking out abortion doctors to save a life. Yes it should be illegal, but I still admire them, greatly. Pfft a couple signs boohoo.

Wow. That is one of the most f'd up sentiments I've heard around here in quite a while.

Why's that? If your neighbor was trying to kill his son I'd hope you shoot the dad before he could, the cops would. Same deal to us just different ages.

I perfectly understand that someone would believe that life starts at conception and therefore abortion is killing. I don't understand how someone can be so arrogant in that belief that they can justify what you propose/admire/respect. IF you are so certain that abortion is such a sin, then why don't you just let God take care of things? Oh yeah....here comes the part about being God's instrument, and being morally obligated to uphold God's law over the government's law. The only problem is that you don't live in a religious state. You live in a democracy where its the letter of the law that defines whats criminally and civilly acceptable. If you don't like it then perhaps you should go live somewhere else.

I said it was a noble goal/... admire is not the right words.

Have I mentioned God once in this thread? You can be perfrectly agnostic and even atheist and feel the same way.

By your logic, I would assume you also admire Islamic terrorists who kill for their religious beliefs. Frankly, I don't see the difference.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: HomeBrewerDude

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Zebo
I don't really have that much of a problem with guys taking out abortion doctors to save a life. Yes it should be illegal, but I still admire them, greatly. Pfft a couple signs boohoo.

Wow. That is one of the most f'd up sentiments I've heard around here in quite a while.

Why's that? If your neighbor was trying to kill his son I'd hope you shoot the dad before he could, the cops would. Same deal to us just different ages.

I perfectly understand that someone would believe that life starts at conception and therefore abortion is killing. I don't understand how someone can be so arrogant in that belief that they can justify what you propose/admire/respect. IF you are so certain that abortion is such a sin, then why don't you just let God take care of things? Oh yeah....here comes the part about being God's instrument, and being morally obligated to uphold God's law over the government's law. The only problem is that you don't live in a religious state. You live in a democracy where its the letter of the law that defines whats criminally and civilly acceptable. If you don't like it then perhaps you should go live somewhere else.

I said it was a noble goal/... admire is not the right words.

Have I mentioned God once in this thread? You can be perfrectly agnostic and even atheist and feel the same way.

By your logic, I would assume you also admire Islamic terrorists who kill for their religious beliefs. Frankly, I don't see the difference.

I'm not surprised.

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: HomeBrewerDude

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: Zebo
I don't really have that much of a problem with guys taking out abortion doctors to save a life. Yes it should be illegal, but I still admire them, greatly. Pfft a couple signs boohoo.

Wow. That is one of the most f'd up sentiments I've heard around here in quite a while.

Why's that? If your neighbor was trying to kill his son I'd hope you shoot the dad before he could, the cops would. Same deal to us just different ages.

I perfectly understand that someone would believe that life starts at conception and therefore abortion is killing. I don't understand how someone can be so arrogant in that belief that they can justify what you propose/admire/respect. IF you are so certain that abortion is such a sin, then why don't you just let God take care of things? Oh yeah....here comes the part about being God's instrument, and being morally obligated to uphold God's law over the government's law. The only problem is that you don't live in a religious state. You live in a democracy where its the letter of the law that defines whats criminally and civilly acceptable. If you don't like it then perhaps you should go live somewhere else.

I said it was a noble goal/... admire is not the right words.

Have I mentioned God once in this thread? You can be perfrectly agnostic and even atheist and feel the same way.

as for your crap about "being gods instrument" That's just BS and you know it. "Don't like slavery, don't own one" "Don't like the holocaust, don't kill a Jew." We as humans have every right to stop percieved injustices. Sometimes the law is too slow or not any good and we do what right anyway, called "civil disobediance" and pay the consequences for our actions. It's too bad babies don't have anyone to speak for them, or we would have divisions out there stopping this halocaust like we did in Germany 60 years ago.

So your beliefs on abortion have NOTHING to do with your religious beliefs? Just come out and say it.

Babies have full rights under the law and everyone fights for their well-being, except for those few people who think its okay to expose children to violent images and other media and those who physically or sexually abuse them.

Civil Disobediance is supposed to be non-violent. Otherwise what you are talking about is vigilantism, not civil disobediance.

You will have to develop your comparison between WWII Germany and abortion more before I can comment on that.

The thing that is most troubling though, is that your own moral relativism on this whole topic.

 

[Zebo]

Only the golden rule is my religion. Fact is millions of babies are being terminated in this country every year. They have no one to speak for them, but thier selfish mothers who put her life/intrests above that of the innocent unborn. I would'nt want to be aborted because my moms career, figure, or whatever took presendence over my unborn life, so I'm totally against it.

 

[0roo0roo]

difference being islamic terrorists kill real human beings. that is not seriously contested. it is not comparable to the abortion situation.

 

[LunarRay]

I think it is an issue to consider... aborted fetus to me is a dead potential baby..... but, I won't hold you to my belief... I also think a once living soldier had as much right to live too... but, neither will I hold you to that belief... I think I've a right to live... and rely on SS to enable my purchase of medical needs and I will hold you to that belief!

 

[Format C:]

Zebo, I'm a conservative and an anti-abortionist. I totally agree with most of your points, but, if you cannot see that "aborting" a doctor is morally every bit as wrong as aborting babies then you need to seriously rethink your morality dude. There's right and there's wrong, and there's no way a wrong can ever be right.

 

[Zebo]

Two wrongs don't make a right, that's right.


But how is it more or less immoral to kill the murderers in these examples; self-defence, home-invasions, wars but somehow this case is special and not open to a defense? Only because the law, written by immoral people says so? Help me understand the difference when I hear people cheer Saddams thugs deaths who where indeed murdering scum, but get defensive like you are when a murdering doctor is put down?

The only way a pro-lifer can defend one and not the other is moral relativism.

 

[0roo0roo]

with the assumption they are "babies" not just fertilized eggs of course. a doctor is a doctor.

 

[joshw10]

Zebo thanks for the sig material!

 

[Czar]

hmm, would anyone complain if anti war protesters would do the same just with horrid images of war?

 

[Gravity]

How Ironic that according to a recent study, most of the abortions were/are/would have been voting the dem ticket right now!!!

OH THE IRONY!!!

The heinous process you snidely nod at is cutting your own political throat!

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Gravity
How Ironic that according to a recent study, most of the abortions were/are/would have been voting the dem ticket right now!!!

OH THE IRONY!!!

The heinous process you snidely nod at is cutting your own political throat!

I don't belive that for a second. It's usually middle and upper-middle class white women having abortions. Typically, they marry whites males, and live happily ever after in suburbia. IE republicans.

Go to any abortion clinic and you'll see the evidence. Blacks, hispanics, poor whites are no place to be found. they are having that baby and getting on the dole.. IE democrats.

 

[Gravity]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: Gravity
How Ironic that according to a recent study, most of the abortions were/are/would have been voting the dem ticket right now!!!

OH THE IRONY!!!

The heinous process you snidely nod at is cutting your own political throat!

I don't belive that for a second. It's usually middle and upper-middle class white women having abortions. Typically, they marry whites males, and live happily ever after in suburbia. IE republicans.

Go to any abortion clinic and you'll see the evidence. Blacks, hispanics, poor whites are no place to be found. they are having that baby and getting on the dole.. IE democrats.

Um, well, your anectdotal expression seems to be refuted here in a recent article where people actually put some thought behind their idea.

Abortion has caused missing Democrats--and missing liberals. For advocates so fundamentally committed to changing the face of conservative America, liberals have been remarkably blind to the fact that every day the abortions they advocate dramatically decrease their power to do so. Imagine the number of followers that their abortion policies eliminate who, over the next several decades, would have emerged as the new liberal thinkers, voters, adherents, fund-raisers and workers for their cause.

Any questions? Apparently, the dems have "aborted" their way right out of power!!!

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Only the golden rule is my religion. Fact is millions of babies are being terminated in this country every year. They have no one to speak for them, but thier selfish mothers who put her life/intrests above that of the innocent unborn. I would'nt want to be aborted because my moms career, figure, or whatever took presendence over my unborn life, so I'm totally against it.

I wouldn't want to have my conception denied because my father and mother had been so selfish as to use birth control!

 

[Gravity]

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: Zebo
Only the golden rule is my religion. Fact is millions of babies are being terminated in this country every year. They have no one to speak for them, but thier selfish mothers who put her life/intrests above that of the innocent unborn. I would'nt want to be aborted because my moms career, figure, or whatever took presendence over my unborn life, so I'm totally against it.

I wouldn't want to have my conception denied because my father and mother had been so selfish as to use birth control!

Really splitting hairs here. An opportunity for conception seems different or less aggregious than actually killing. Not all sexual congress leads to conception. All abortions lead to death.

 

[Zebo]

Nice link G

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: Gravity

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: Zebo
Only the golden rule is my religion. Fact is millions of babies are being terminated in this country every year. They have no one to speak for them, but thier selfish mothers who put her life/intrests above that of the innocent unborn. I would'nt want to be aborted because my moms career, figure, or whatever took presendence over my unborn life, so I'm totally against it.

I wouldn't want to have my conception denied because my father and mother had been so selfish as to use birth control!

Really splitting hairs here. An opportunity for conception seems different or less aggregious than actually killing. Not all sexual congress leads to conception. All abortions lead to death.

Sure, I won't deny that. But you are still killing living human that had a chance to become a human, just like in an abortion you are killing living human tissue that had a chance to develop into a self aware human. The chance is higher, obviously, but both have a chance to live and both are prevented that chance. It really comes down to at what point do you define it as "murder". I for one believe that at the point of self awareness, you have a human baby. Before that its tissue. My beliefs would call anything after that point murder but allow anything before that point. I see no reason why people that want to have an abortion, can't do it in the first month, before cognitive function is at issue.

 

[xxxxxJohnGaltxxxxx]

Originally posted by: HomeBrewerDude
No need to expose kids to that kind of imagry...they don't understand the politics, ethics, etc..., but they can get the crap scared out of them.


this tactic is as morally bankrupt as they claim abortion to be.

...seen the newest "Your Mommy Kills Animals" comic book Peta is marketing to school children?

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Perhaps some group should drive through OK with billboards featuring graphic imagery of dead Iraqi civilians with their brains splattered all over the pavement and see what effect that has on support for the war in Iraq?

Most likely if they tried to pull that here they would be run out of town very quickly.

Moral relevatism. Are you actually suggesting that a dead fetus > a dead Iraqi civilian? Or are you just ashamed to see first-hand what our government actually does in our name?

you act as if we intentionally kill civilians. Aborted babies are very intentionally killed, 1 by 1. Dont topic steer, theres plenty of other threads to talk about Iraqi's

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Perhaps some group should drive through OK with billboards featuring graphic imagery of dead Iraqi civilians with their brains splattered all over the pavement and see what effect that has on support for the war in Iraq?

Most likely if they tried to pull that here they would be run out of town very quickly.

Moral relevatism. Are you actually suggesting that a dead fetus > a dead Iraqi civilian? Or are you just ashamed to see first-hand what our government actually does in our name?

you act as if we intentionally kill civilians. Aborted babies are very intentionally killed, 1 by 1. Dont topic steer, theres plenty of other threads to talk about Iraqi's

Although I'm not sure that this was Deal's intention, he does bring up the point that there does seem to be a level of hypocrisy by some that puts value on some human life but not others. This, I feel, is a sensible argument for this thread, although using Iraq as an example probably distracted from that point.

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: Train

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Perhaps some group should drive through OK with billboards featuring graphic imagery of dead Iraqi civilians with their brains splattered all over the pavement and see what effect that has on support for the war in Iraq?

Most likely if they tried to pull that here they would be run out of town very quickly.

Moral relevatism. Are you actually suggesting that a dead fetus > a dead Iraqi civilian? Or are you just ashamed to see first-hand what our government actually does in our name?

you act as if we intentionally kill civilians. Aborted babies are very intentionally killed, 1 by 1. Dont topic steer, theres plenty of other threads to talk about Iraqi's

Although I'm not sure that this was Deal's intention, he does bring up the point that there does seem to be a level of hypocrisy by some that puts value on some human life but not others. This, I feel, is a sensible argument for this thread, although using Iraq as an example probably distracted from that point.

its an attempt to dillute the issue. Comparing it to a dead Iraqi, trying to say that abortion activists put more value in a babies life than an Iraqi civilian. No one said Iraqi civilians lives werent worth anything, and did not compare them, or the lives of the babies, to anyone elses. But we are talking about Abortion. Its an easy way out trying to divert to another issue or pointing the finger at the extremist who killed a doctor like he represents all of the Pro-Life supporters or something. You libs know you bitch and wine when someone points to a extreme lefty and try to classify all libs that way, so dont go doing it yourselves.

 

[DealMonkey]

The hypocrisy in this thread is overwhelming. Let me point it out for you:

1.) The idea that it's acceptable to drive around town with a billboard featuring dead and dismembered fetuses, but that it's NOT acceptabel to drive around with a billboard featuring dead Iraqi civilians is hyopcritical. You agree with one tactic because it meshes with your political agenda even though both sides are using the EXACT same tactic.

2.) The idea that it's admirable and noble to off an abortion doctor because in your mind he's killing babys is very much a two-wrongs-make-a-right type argument or the ends justify the means argument. Neither is a very strong position to argue from. I can see how a fundie might think this way, but it's clearly wrong. Both from a moral standpoint and from a legal one. Fact is, a fetus is not a person under our legal system. If you don't like it, go try and change the law don't go around shooting people you don't agree with.

At least I can be consistant in that I would support an organization's right to drive around with mobile billboard with either dead fetuses or dead Iraqis -- personally, I think it's a disgusting and low way to make your point, but I wouldn't necessarily try and stop it. I can also be consistant in the second case in that I don't agree with murdering an abortion worker/doctor/patient and I don't agree with murdering babies. I just happen to have the same definition of a baby as our legal system does.

 

[Train]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
The hypocrisy in this thread is overwhelming. Let me point it out for you:

1.) The idea that it's acceptable to drive around town with a billboard featuring dead and dismembered fetuses, but that it's NOT acceptabel to drive around with a billboard featuring dead Iraqi civilians is hyopcritical. You agree with one tactic because it meshes with your political agenda even though both sides are using the EXACT same tactic.

2.) The idea that it's admirable and noble to off an abortion doctor because in your mind he's killing babys is very much a two-wrongs-make-a-right type argument or the ends justify the means argument. Neither is a very strong position to argue from. I can see how a fundie might think this way, but it's clearly wrong. Both from a moral standpoint and from a legal one. Fact is, a fetus is not a person under our legal system. If you don't like it, go try and change the law don't go around shooting people you don't agree with.

At least I can be consistant in that I would support an organization's right to drive around with mobile billboard with either dead fetuses or dead Iraqis -- personally, I think it's a disgusting and low way to make your point, but I wouldn't necessarily try and stop it. I can also be consistant in the second case in that I don't agree with murdering an abortion worker/doctor/patient and I don't agree with murdering babies. I just happen to have the same definition of a baby as our legal system does.

1) I never said it was unnaceptable to show anything, i said changing the subject is a weak diversion away from what we are talking about here.

2) Fetus is not legal? Under our legal system it is. People have been convicted for 2 counts of murder for killing a pregnant woman, therefore, under our court system, yes a fetus has all the rights of a person.