ABC News releases Paul Ryan's letters requesting stimulus money

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
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This is common knowledge.

He's a fraud and if this is the intellectual wing of the GOP they are in for a rude awakening the next couple of years.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
I don't believe this should mean anything. Politicians should be able to try to oppose a fiscal measure, and if it fails, their position should not mean that all of their constituents are exempt from taking part.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
52,376
45,824
136
I don't believe this should mean anything. Politicians should be able to try to oppose a fiscal measure, and if it fails, their position should not mean that all of their constituents are exempt from taking part.

I generally agree however bringing the issue up in the debate legitimately opens the door to this counter attack. Making the claim that money was wasted from the stimulus on green jobs when you helped to "waste" that money serves to paint Ryan a hypocrite. IMO he should have stayed away from it.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
I guess I'm confused, help me out:

Why wouldn't a fiscally conservative politician, who is opposed to the stimulus, make sure his constituency got stimulus money that's going to be given out anyways (that is, deficit spent anyways), rather than not get the money, and watch it be spent someplace else?

How F'ing dumb would that be???
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
I guess I'm confused, help me out:

Why wouldn't a fiscally conservative politician, who is opposed to the stimulus, make sure his constituency got stimulus money that's going to be given out anyways (that is, deficit spent anyways), rather than not get the money, and watch it be spent someplace else?

How F'ing dumb would that be???


Again, watch this video and get back to me on that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlwAToAj7cE

He's not opposed to stimulus in general, he's opposed to stimulus when DEMOCRATS propose it. Elected Republicans are generally smart enough to know that stimulus is needed when the economy isn't doing so well. Of course they want the economy to suffer worse when democrats are in office, which is why they oppose democratic stimulus.

It's really the really really stupid republicans who vote for these idiots that are 'against stimulus' who think the idiot conservatives they vote for are against stimulus as well.

He's a rather enthusiastic supporter of stimulus, he just doesn't want you to know. And it's fairly easy because conservatives are fucking idiots who only watch fox news to get their news.
 
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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
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WashPost blog in response to the Hypocrisy claim:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...adict-himself-by-backing-bushs-2002-stimulus/

Republican vice presidential candidate Paul Ryan was once an enthusiastic supporter of short-term government stimulus—when it focused overwhelmingly on tax cuts, that is.

MSNBC’s “Up with Chris Hayes” dug up a February 2002 clip of Ryan vocally supporting a stimulus package under President Bush, which was signed into law in March 2002 and included extended unemployment benefits along with tax cuts. “What we’re trying to accomplish today with the passage of this third stimulus package is to create jobs and help the unemployed,” Ryan said on the House floor.



Liberal media outlets have suggested that the revelation reeks of hypocrisy, given Ryan’s vehement opposition to President Obama’s 2009 stimulus. They rightly point out that the Wisconsin congressman has recently voted against extending unemployment insurance in the Obama years—benefits that were part of the 2002 Bush stimulus.

But most of the 2002 stimulus that Ryan supported, in fact, is largely in line with ideology today. The Bush stimulus was distinct from Obama’s not only because it was far smaller, but also because it focused predominantly on tax cuts for businesses, as opposed to aid for states and ordinary households. And while Ryan recently has opposed extending unemployment insurance, he voted for earlier extensions of those benefits in October 2008 and September 2009.

Bush’s 2002 stimulus bill cost $42 billion over 10 years, according to the Congressional Budget Office, and it was intended to help the economy recover in the wake of the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. Under pressure from Democrats, Bush and the Republicans agreed to include about $12 billion for an unemployment insurance extension, as well as $319 million in welfare benefits, the CBO’s report says.

But the rest of Bush’s 2002 stimulus—about 70 percent of the total—was dedicated to business tax breaks. The biggest piece temporarily raised the amount that businesses could write-off for buying new machines, equipment and other assets, known as “bonus depreciation.” The 2002 stimulus also included a $5 billion tax credit for New York City businesses forced to relocate because of the terrorist attacks, and extended tax breaks for electric cars, welfare-to-work and other provisions.

By contrast, Obama’s 2009 stimulus was an order of magnitude larger and it flipped the ratio of tax breaks to spending: About $290 billion, or 36 percent, of the $787 billion package was devoted to tax cuts, while the rest was spending. And the vast majority of the tax cuts in Obama’s stimulus helped ordinary households and low-income Americans, rather than businesses.

The difference helps explain why Bush’s 2002 stimulus wasn’t as effective in boosting in the economy as Obama’s stimulus package, which most economic studies agree has worked. According to the Tax Policy Center, Bush’s plan’s “bonus depreciation” for businesses “provid[ed] little incentive for uncertain companies to hasten purchases,” as it was in place until summer 2004 and was then extended thereafter.

Economists from the University of Michigan agreed that the impact of Bush’s 2002 tax stimulus was “modest” at best. “The recent tax cuts were well-timed, but poorly structured for short-term stimulus,” added Brookings’ William Gale and Peter Orszag, evaluating both the 2001 Bush tax cuts and the 2002 stimulus. “The tax cuts were mostly backloaded and did not channel funds towards groups with the highest marginal propensity to consume additional resources.”

By contrast, numerous economic studies have shown that Obama’s stimulus was successful in part because it focused so heavily on spending that the 2002 Bush stimulus didn’t touch, like infrastructure spending, fiscal aid to states and tax cuts to low-income households.

So Ryan didn’t completely contradict himself by supporting Bush’s 2002 stimulus while rejecting Obama’s 2009 package, which were strikingly different in size and substance. But that doesn’t mean that Ryan’s policy reasons for rejecting Obama’s stimulus were 100 percent sound, either.

Reasonably even-handed.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
WashPost blog in response to the Hypocrisy claim:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...adict-himself-by-backing-bushs-2002-stimulus/



Reasonably even-handed.

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/ryan-backed-stimulus-2002-george-bush.php

When President George W. Bush pushed a stimulus package in 2002 in order to shore up the staggering economy, Ryan urged his Republican House colleagues to pass the bill. In a floor speech dug up by MSNBC host Chris Hayes, Ryan made the case for deficit spending in order to extend unemployment benefits and stimulate job creation.
 
Feb 6, 2007
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So Ryan didn’t completely contradict himself by supporting Bush’s 2002 stimulus while rejecting Obama’s 2009 package, which were strikingly different in size and substance. But that doesn’t mean that Ryan’s policy reasons for rejecting Obama’s stimulus were 100 percent sound, either.

So he's not a hypocrite, he's just in favor of fiscal policy that doesn't work over fiscal policy that does... That's not a terribly compelling argument in favor of Ryan.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,133
38
91
I don't know why this is an issue. He never denied it. Hypocrite? Yes. Liar? No (not on this issue)...
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
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I guess I'm confused, help me out:

Why wouldn't a fiscally conservative politician, who is opposed to the stimulus, make sure his constituency got stimulus money that's going to be given out anyways (that is, deficit spent anyways), rather than not get the money, and watch it be spent someplace else?

How F'ing dumb would that be???

If he believes that stimulus money doesn't create jobs and actually hurts the economy, why would he ask for stimulus money to create jobs and help the economy?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
...and as my link showed, the size of Bush's...package was nowhere near the size...of, uh...okay nevermind.

Oh, so republicans are in favor of stimulus, as long as it's under a certain threshold, huh?

That

Is

Rich

If Obama proposed the same stimulus under the same circumstances, would you say the same thing?

How disingenuous can you be?
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
I generally agree however bringing the issue up in the debate legitimately opens the door to this counter attack. Making the claim that money was wasted from the stimulus on green jobs when you helped to "waste" that money serves to paint Ryan a hypocrite. IMO he should have stayed away from it.

I agree with that. Bringing it up as money wasted when you've privately written a letter stating that it will in fact create jobs is hypocritical as hell. He shouldn't have brought it up as an argument.

...and as my link showed, the size of Bush's...package was nowhere near the size...of, uh...okay nevermind.

If you read a proper recounting of the fiscal crisis, you would note that numerous Republican cabinet members and congressional representatives were screaming their heads off for far more stimulus than Bush originally put through. (It's also faulty to say Bush did anything - he was barely involved. It was wholly quarterbacked by Paulson and Geithner.) What you're saying in essence is that Bush should be praised for half-assing what needed to be done.
 
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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Oh, so republicans are in favor of stimulus, as long as it's under a certain threshold, huh?

That

Is

Rich

I do see a difference between a 40 billion dollar stimulus and an 800 billion dollar stimulus.

If Obama proposed the same stimulus under the same circumstances, would you say the same thing?

How disingenuous can you be?

Well, I probably would've been as against it as I was Bush's, but I can't deny that I regard a democrat's measures with considerably more suspicion than I regard a republican's.
 

nextJin

Golden Member
Apr 16, 2009
1,848
0
0
If he believes that stimulus money doesn't create jobs and actually hurts the economy, why would he ask for stimulus money to create jobs and help the economy?

I fucking hate Ryan/Romney with oh so much passion, but this is similar to earmarking. The funds are going to be spent regardless and congressmen should indeed try and allot a certain percentage to their constituents. In my opinion everything should be earmarked to prevent the funds from being spent by the executive branch.

Just my 2 cents.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,249
32,798
136
I guess I'm confused, help me out:

Why wouldn't a fiscally conservative politician, who is opposed to the stimulus, make sure his constituency got stimulus money that's going to be given out anyways (that is, deficit spent anyways), rather than not get the money, and watch it be spent someplace else?

How F'ing dumb would that be???
Says the guy who thinks people that say taxes should be raised should send money to the IRS voluntarily.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
If he believes that stimulus money doesn't create jobs and actually hurts the economy, why would he ask for stimulus money to create jobs and help the economy?

Why wouldn't he? The stimulus money will be spent regardless. He can get his constituency a piece of the pie he believes should not be spent, but will be regardless, or, he can not get his constituency anything and watch the money still be spent. Either way the people he represents will pay taxes, one option gets them money, the other doesn't. This is like the idiots laughing at the FL Gov. or whoever it was chopping the train project that had a Billion or whatever in Fed funds saying, 'Now some other state can get the money, sucker!' Rather than that money just not being spent, it'll be spent elsewhere.

Mine as well get a piece of the pie you didn't want to (help) pay for...

Chuck
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,249
32,798
136
I don't believe this should mean anything. Politicians should be able to try to oppose a fiscal measure, and if it fails, their position should not mean that all of their constituents are exempt from taking part.

RYAN: On two occasions we — we — we advocated for constituents who were applying for grants. That’s what we do. We do that for all constituents who are…
(CROSSTALK) BIDEN: I love that. I love that. This was such a bad program and he writes me a letter saying — writes the Department of Energy a letter saying, “The reason we need this stimulus, it will create growth and jobs.” His words. And now he’s sitting here looking at me
If Ryan says the stimulus will not create jobs maybe he shouldn't say it will create jobs when he asks for his piece of the pie.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
10,018
37
91
Says the guy who thinks people that say taxes should be raised should send money to the IRS voluntarily.

What's the problem with that? You obviously feel the Fed needs more money, so by all means, send it! Nothing is stopping you or any other Proggie or even Buffet from sending more to the IRS, since you are convinced the Fed has a revenue problem. It's stunning that you think it's something to even call me out on.

I'm simply asking you to go and do exactly what you want done, and there is already a means to do it. What's the problem?
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,249
32,798
136
What's the problem with that? You obviously feel the Fed needs more money, so by all means, send it! Nothing is stopping you or any other Proggie or even Buffet from sending more to the IRS, since you are convinced the Fed has a revenue problem. It's stunning that you think it's something to even call me out on.

I'm simply asking you to go and do exactly what you want done, and there is already a means to do it. What's the problem?
Not that this needs to be explained again or that you will understand it, but I don't have an extra $15T dollars to send.