Abbas urges Obama to impose a peace plan

[Lemon law]

As Netanyuhy says nyet to any settlement halt, it may be the final end to any world hopes of any progress on any mutually agreed peace plan between Israel and Palestinians.

Regardless if the world has given up on a mutually agreed mid-east peace plan or not, today Abbas made his proposal.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100424...uX2hlYWRsaW5lX2xpc3QEc2xrA2FiYmFzdXJnZXNvYg--

I do not know how to comment, the link somewhat speaks for itself, but its certainly one possible way forward. And also maybe a testament for the trust Palestinians are willing to place in Obama. Now its a matter of seeing if Abbas can get other world leaders aboard with Obama also having the ability to punt some if not all peace plan details to a UN wide commission.

Time will tell on how far the Abbas proposal goes. I will guess that Israel will be opposed, but its certainly another way to force Israel to at least halt settlements as they come to the negotiating table on that basis.

 

[theflyingpig]

Palestinian statehood is a vital U.S. interest

HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Oh my God. He must be kidding. The Palestinians contribute nothing to the world except terrorism. Israel could wipe them off the face of the earth and no one would care except maybe a few liberals, and they won't do anything except yell and scream for a few weeks. Everyone knows this.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Nice link

but I do not see where Hamas is mentioned at all in this article....

You cannot have a peace without addressing the Hamas issue.....

Thus nothing will come of this...

 

[Sinsear]

Palestinians need to stfu. They are a savage culture of animals who contribute nothing to the betterment of mankind, unless how to be a suicide bomber is a contribution.

 

[Noobtastic]

Nice link

but I do not see where Hamas is mentioned at all in this article....

You cannot have a peace without addressing the Hamas issue.....

Thus nothing will come of this...

israel is most likely to make peace with gaza than the west bank.

Hamas is more capable and functional than Fatah.

The Hamas leadership actually has the capacity to honor and fulfill promises made because it has full authority. Unlike in the West Bank, where the bankrupt Fatah can't even run a dairy queen without blowing it up in their face.

If the Palestinians had the ambition of Hamas and political philosophy of Amoz Oz...then yeah, peace is possible.

But not under these assholes. All they want is more aid money.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It will be interesting watching us enforce a peace no one really wants.

 

[Lemon law]

It will be interesting watching us enforce a peace no one really wants.

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I suggest that Haybasa Rider is FOS if he asserts its a just mid-east peace no one wants.

And Haybusa Rider is doubly wrong to say a peace plan proposed by Obama or the international community is something only the USA would be required to enforce.

The problem with the Israel position is that they have been making out like a bandit by continually settling on disputed land for 43 years and counting, thus continually enhancing the Israeli position by stalling any negotiations. And if a Israeli settlement freeze policy is imposed by the international community, that ends any further gains Israel can make while stalling real negotiations.

And that is a real game changer now, as any possible further Israeli gains may come to a screeching halt as a mere step one.

 

[blackangst1]

UGH...let Isreal fight it the fuck out. We dont need to be involved with this. At all.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Fatah is unable to come up with a workable solution; so they punt to the US/UN for protection.

Same as every other conflict.

Without Hamas in the picture, does Fatah have an ability to accept/negotiate with Israel.

the US once already asked for the settlements to be stopped and ISrael thumbed their noses. What did the US then do?

As stated in another thread; all parties have to want an agreement otherwise it will break down.

Fatah only represents a small section.

 

[Lemon law]

Common Courtesy may be totally wrong in assuming, "As stated in another thread; all parties have to want an agreement otherwise it will break down."

And then the other question becomes whom does all parties consist of? Are we talking the split into two three million Palestinians, the 7 or so million Israelis, the 275 million or so surrounding Arabs, or the 4 billion plus larger world?

And the latest development is Netanyuhu totally painting Israel into a corner by saying, Israel does not WANT A SETTLEMENT, ISRAEL wants all of the gains of the 1948 land thefts and all of the gains from the 1967&73 wars. And that is the final Israeli position.

Now the question is and remains, will Israel get away with it, or will the 4 billion plus larger world say, Israel, oh no you will not get away with it? And why should Israeli assume they have a veto agreement right to say, if we do not agree, that is that, and its our way or the highway if we don't agree.

The other point to make is that its become a stated Israeli position to settle on disputed land, thus making it politically impossible for Israel to surrender any of its continual gains, a basically only a 100% Israeli political mistake policy, and why should the rest of the world respect or reward that Israeli stupidity?

In short, the interests of a 4 billion plus world in a just mid-east peace is about a zillion times greater than Israeli interests. And in that comparison, its absolutely no contest now that Netanyuhu has totally defined that Israeli defies the world with a refusenic policy. As the better world hope assumption that Israelis and Palestinians will ever agree dies a final death at Israeli hands.

The last fool regime that tried that trick was South Africa, and where is their apartheid regime now?

 

[Moonbeam]

He who lives by oppression dies by oppression.

 

[EagleKeeper]

At a minimum; you have the Hamas group, Fatah group and the ISraeli group.

Hezbollah and all the puppet masters on the Arab side may become the joker in the deck.

So who speaks for the Palestinians? Until that is settled, any other Palestinian group may have the ability to wreck any agreement.

This happened to Arafat; what makes Abbas so special. At present, all he has proven as that he DOES NOT represent all the Palestinian people - so what is his authority to broker any agreement?

 

[Noobtastic]

In short, the interests of a 4 billion plus world in a just mid-east peace is about a zillion times greater than Israeli interests. And in that comparison, its absolutely no contest now that Netanyuhu has totally defined that Israeli defies the world with a refusenic policy. As the better world hope assumption that Israelis and Palestinians will ever agree dies a final death at Israeli hands.

so what you're saying is, billions of people who have no legal or moral relation to israel/palestine, somehow, someway have right to impose their own foreign policy/philosophy, whatever...because there's more of them?

israel is a crucial part of the middle east, and to say its interest somehow is greater than mid-east peace simply proves how detached from reality you LEMON LAW.

reminds of me of the british/british bickering over the Sudetenland.

what to do with all those jews living there. BUT, there must be peace! We must make peace with the Nazis...so if we give them this land, without the Jews permission of course...all will be beloved patriot dory.

look how that turned out.

At a minimum; you have the Hamas group, Fatah group and the ISraeli group.

Hezbollah and all the puppet masters on the Arab side may become the joker in the deck.

So who speaks for the Palestinians? Until that is settled, any other Palestinian group may have the ability to wreck any agreement.

This happened to Arafat; what makes Abbas so special. At present, all he has proven as that he DOES NOT represent all the Palestinian people - so what is his authority to broker any agreement?

exactly.

The Palestinian leadership couldn't deliver a peace deal even if they wanted to. And their foreign benefactors such as the EU or Arabs are too afraid to pressure the palestinians into reform, for fear of undermining whatever legitimacy abbas still has.

this is why the EU press said absolutely nothing over the last 2 months about the HUGE corruption scandal going on within fatah, stolen money, pirated water, sex scandal...then abbas using his security forces to silent journalists...all censored by BBC and the guardian.

you will know the palestinians are having trouble when they continue to blame israel for problems they create.

 

[Lemon law]

The Common Courtesy delusion is that Israel, also somewhat divided has the authority to broker any deal. Been there, tried that, did not work.

Earth to Common Courtesy, earth to Common Courtesy, Netanyuhu done screwed your pooch in saying Israel will never negotiate and will never agree to anything until they pig it all. Time for world plan B. And don't worry your pretty little head about Palestinian disunity, they will recognize a fairer deal when they see it. Worry more about resultant Israeli terrorism as they burn all that they must give back.

 

[Lemon law]

And I have to also love the IHV stuff that Abbas is corrupt stuff, pot meet kettle, even the Israelis threw out former PM Olmert for being corrupt. As for Netanyuhu, he is a total human turd and a moral midget in his own right. Only a fool will bet on a Netanyuhu political futures.

 

[EagleKeeper]

If faction(s) of the Palestinians do not want peace; then what will a brokered settlement with the other group(s) accomplish.

In any settlement, the Palestinians are not going to get everything that they want.

So what will the authority/bribe/carrots be that brings the troublemakers to the table.

The Palestinians cannot define a fairer deal - they have continualy demonstrated they want it all or nothing.

They can not agree on what constitutes peace.

Who will they blame is the other faction creates trouble. such was demonstrated before in Gaza. Everyone blames Israel; yet is was the Palestinians that struck first.

 

[Freshgeardude]

The Common Courtesy delusion is that Israel, also somewhat divided has the authority to broker any deal. Been there, tried that, did not work.

Earth to Common Courtesy, earth to Common Courtesy, Netanyuhu done screwed your pooch in saying Israel will never negotiate and will never agree to anything until they pig it all. Time for world plan B. And don't worry your pretty little head about Palestinian disunity, they will recognize a fairer deal when they see it. Worry more about resultant Israeli terrorism as they burn all that they must give back.

YOU ARE DELUSIONAL.


get out of your basement, take off your tin foil hat, go breath some fresh air, and fucking live a real life.

GET THIS IN YOUR HEAD. Palestinians at the current time have two completely opposing political parties in power. Hamas in gaza, Fatah in the west bank. Hamas killed every fatah member they found in the west bank back in the elections, so they could come into power. they dont give a shit about fatah.

fatah on the other hand hates hamas, and is a weak government power.

hamas at this time will NEVER get a peace agreement offered as long as they have Gilad Shalit as a POW. they have no interest in offering a peace agreement.

without hamas agreeing to peace with israel, fatah cant do shit.


right now, the Palestinians are holding this peace agreement from happening.

As Netanyuhy says nyet to any settlement halt, it may be the final end to any world hopes of any progress on any mutually agreed peace plan between Israel and Palestinians.

LOL! yea, after 62 years of failed peace with israel. THIS IS THE TIME, with this anti-israel president in power, that all peace plans with fall to the ground and burn to ashes.

Israel, contrary to what the first quote says, has a very solid government, that has stood for 62 years, has a growing population, growing economy, great military (for its size), and has successfully defended itself on multiple occasions. Israel has already offered peace agreements.

you seriously need to go to a doctor. I think you cant smell the shit you drop.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suggest that Haybasa Rider is FOS if he asserts its a just mid-east peace no one wants.

And Haybusa Rider is doubly wrong to say a peace plan proposed by Obama or the international community is something only the USA would be required to enforce.

The problem with the Israel position is that they have been making out like a bandit by continually settling on disputed land for 43 years and counting, thus continually enhancing the Israeli position by stalling any negotiations. And if a Israeli settlement freeze policy is imposed by the international community, that ends any further gains Israel can make while stalling real negotiations.

And that is a real game changer now, as any possible further Israeli gains may come to a screeching halt as a mere step one.

Well I'll qualify it for you. The leadership of Israel will not trust the leaders of Palestine, and many Palestinian groups want to continue the strife to keep their positions.

I'm sure you noticed how sanctions worked in the ME before (not). I suppose you could launch another war with a Coalition of Your Willing, but good luck with that.

So when is this "peace" going to happen? 2390?

 

[nick1985]

HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Oh my God. He must be kidding. The Palestinians contribute nothing to the world except terrorism. Israel could wipe them off the face of the earth and no one would care except maybe a few liberals, and they won't do anything except yell and scream for a few weeks. Everyone knows this.

this

 

[Lemon law]

Common Courtesy asks, "So what will the authority/bribe/carrots be that brings the troublemakers to the table."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And that is where many Israeli fan clubbers understand nothing. Its simply going to take the same thing it took for South Africa, namely a world wide economic embargo against Israel. And that will force the trouble making Israelis to the table.

I never said Israel will like that being forced to the table alternative, but an economic embargo is far worse.

 

[nick1985]

One of these days lemon law will learn how the quote function works

 

[William Gaatjes]

Common Courtesy may be totally wrong in assuming, "As stated in another thread; all parties have to want an agreement otherwise it will break down."

And then the other question becomes whom does all parties consist of? Are we talking the split into two three million Palestinians, the 7 or so million Israelis, the 275 million or so surrounding Arabs, or the 4 billion plus larger world?

And the latest development is Netanyuhu totally painting Israel into a corner by saying, Israel does not WANT A SETTLEMENT, ISRAEL wants all of the gains of the 1948 land thefts and all of the gains from the 1967&73 wars. And that is the final Israeli position.

Now the question is and remains, will Israel get away with it, or will the 4 billion plus larger world say, Israel, oh no you will not get away with it? And why should Israeli assume they have a veto agreement right to say, if we do not agree, that is that, and its our way or the highway if we don't agree.

The other point to make is that its become a stated Israeli position to settle on disputed land, thus making it politically impossible for Israel to surrender any of its continual gains, a basically only a 100% Israeli political mistake policy, and why should the rest of the world respect or reward that Israeli stupidity?

In short, the interests of a 4 billion plus world in a just mid-east peace is about a zillion times greater than Israeli interests. And in that comparison, its absolutely no contest now that Netanyuhu has totally defined that Israeli defies the world with a refusenic policy. As the better world hope assumption that Israelis and Palestinians will ever agree dies a final death at Israeli hands.

The last fool regime that tried that trick was South Africa, and where is their apartheid regime now?

Here is some wishful thinking :
What i do not get is that in islamic countries there are enough people to support other islamic countries by giving money to fight wars. But i have always found it strange that those same people who want to help their brothers so much never have sad : Fuck them, come live with us. We have less desert anyway. I sometimes get the uncomfortable feeling when looking over longer periods of time, the Palestinians are just caught between the crossfire of fundamental judaic and islamitic believes. They are it seems to me, what is called cannon fodder.

But to come back to reality :
On the other hand, Palestine has existed longer then Israel. Palestine is really more then 3000 years old, meaning the entire erea was named Palestina. No, the 1948 state of Israel is formed because of religious believes by the Jewish people. The temple mount is of most importance to the judaic believes and the islamic believes by the way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Temple

Since the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70, religious Jewish people have expressed their desire to see the building of a Third Temple on the Temple Mount. Prayer for this cause has been a formal part of the Jewish tradition thrice daily Jewish prayer services. Though it remains unbuilt, the notion of and desire for a Third Temple is sacred in Judaism, particularly Orthodox Judaism, as an unrealized place of worship. The prophets in the Tanakh called for its construction, to be fulfilled in the Messianic era.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Age

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...eolithic_periods_.281_mya.E2.80.935000_BCE.29

The earliest human remains in Palestine were found in Ubeidiya, some 3 km south of the Sea of Galilee (Lake Tiberias), in the Jordan Rift Valley. The remains are dated to the Pleistocene, ca. 1.5 million years ago. It is traces of the earliest migration of Homo erectus out of Africa. The site yielded hand axes of the Acheulean type

I find it more interesting that there are so many archaeological things to be found there.

I do wonder how the continents looked like 1,5 million years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_drift

 

[Fear No Evil]

Maybe we can get an official Israel thread so Lemon Head doesn't have to start 6 of these a week?

 

[Freshgeardude]

Maybe we can get an official Israel thread so Lemon Head doesn't have to start 6 of these a week?

LOL, yea we tried that before. it grew to many pages, then like every other thread, it died out

 

[palehorse]

I just wish Israel would finally push every last Palestinian all the way in to Syria, lock down the borders, and be done with this multi-state mess already... They should take all of the land within their outer borders. Co-existence is impossible. Every effort at peace, while their entire country looks like a jigsaw puzzle, is futile. Period.

I know this will never happen, and that it's not entirely humane, but I'm just about sick of the nonsense and really couldn't care less if Israel decided to go through with such a plan (As long as it doesnt involve killing the Palestinians.. just moving them en mass to join their Arab brethren next door).

There is a reason that Kosovo is mostly stable these days -- the Serbs were essentially forced out completely. The same could be done in Israel with every last Palestinian.