Abbas seeking alternatives if Mideast talks fail

[JEDIYoda]

I have to applaude Abbas on his resolve to get a peace settlement!
I also think the United States could recognize a Palestinian state.

The only problem is what about Hamas and others who want no part of recognizing Israel??

I also believe the UN is not the medium to affect this change!!


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101009/ap_on_re_mi_ea/arabs_mideast_talks

SIRTE, Libya – Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas on Saturday sought Arab League backing for possible alternatives to troubled peace talks with Israel, including urging the Obama administration to unilaterally recognize a Palestinian state, an Abbas aide said.[/B
The Arab League, meeting in Libya over the weekend, has given the U.S. another month to try to salvage the negotiations, but has also begun to consider fallback options in case the talks collapse.

The U.S.-backed Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, which began last month at the White House, have hit an impasse over Israel's refusal to extend a 10-month-old slowdown on settlement construction that expired in late September.

Abbas has said he will not resume talks without such an extension, and won Arab League backing for his position. Israel has refused to extend the moratorium, though it is considering compromises.

On Saturday, Abbas asked Arab leaders to consider alternatives to the negotiations, said Saeb Erekat, a top aide to the Palestinian president.

Erekat said Abbas asked Arab leaders on Saturday "to press the American administration to recognize an independent Palestinian state within the borders of 1967."

If the Americans reject the request, the Palestinians might take up the issue with the Security Council, nonetheless, Erekat said.

Palestinian officials have said in the past that if peace talks fall through, they might ask the U.N. Security Council to recognize a Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and east Jerusalem — territories Israel captured in the 1967 Mideast War.

However, in such a scenario, a U.S. veto at the Security Council seems likely.-- seems likely---sure thing!!

The United States opposes a unilateral Palestinian declaration of statehood and has pushed back against efforts at the U.N. to recognize such a state. The long-standing U.S. position is that statehood should come through negotiations with the Israelis.

Abbas told the summit that he did not expect Israel to budge on the settlement issue, and that in the meantime opposition to continuing the talks is building among the Palestinian people, according to two Arab diplomats.

"We have exhausted all our alternatives," the diplomats quoted Abbas as saying. They spoke on condition of anonymity in order to speak about information discussed in the closed session.

 

[Lemon law]

I am somewhat happy that JEDIY is finally waking up to alternate scenarios, but after 1.00000 months and no Netanyuhu change of heart, we may not be able to count on,
"However, in such a scenario, a U.S. veto at the Security Council seems likely.-- seems likely---sure thing!!"

Especially if US allies, all of which lack the very pro-Israeli press we have are dead set against anything else. Israeli is already under world probation, Obama may have to think long and hard about the USA losing world leadership if he defies the will of ALL our allies.

But Netanyuhu or some other Israeli leader better be at the peace talks with a full Israeli settlement freeze in place by 10/27/2010 or that US veto may be withdrawn.

The Israelis are already settling on disputed land again, and why should not they pay a price for their defiance? If Israel demands to pig it all they may end up with nothing.

 

[Lemon law]

The other thing to point out is that Abbas now threatens to resign from Palestinian leadership. After all, he is a very old man at 76, and even if he has dedicated much of his life to non violence, he has delivered doddly squat to the Palestinians.

But if nothing else, Abbas has younger deputies who have done much to replace Arifat corruption with competent leadership. But in the last few years some diplomacy has occurred with a possible reunification of Hamas and Fatah, or maybe the Palestinians will find a Palestinian Gandhi, or Palestinian leadership may shift east to Turkey and Lebanon. As for Egypt and Jordon who are still being bribed by the US to support Israeli
Palestinian embargo policies, Jordon and Egypt may simply end all Israeli embargo co-operation and wholeheartedly support a Palestinian state that would provide a buffer state between them and Israel. And then Egypt and Jordon could make a fortune in cross border trade as a viable Palestinian trade develops.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I am somewhat happy that JEDIY is finally waking up to alternate scenarios, but after 1.00000 months and no Netanyuhu change of heart, we may not be able to count on,
"However, in such a scenario, a U.S. veto at the Security Council seems likely.-- seems likely---sure thing!!"
first of all those of us who desire a just settlement, not a one sides settlement understand that there could be alternatives!
Secondly ther Arabs as a whole are not capable of doing anything to Israel other than talking tough!!

Especially if US allies, all of which lack the very pro-Israeli press we have are dead set against anything else. Israeli is already under world probation, Obama may have to think long and hard about the USA losing world leadership if he defies the will of ALL our allies. -- only in your mind is Israel under any sort of probabtion! -- I want some of those mushrooms you are using!!
The world hasn`t been listening to the US over the last possibly 10 years. There is nothing the US will lose if this so called settlement does not happen!!
How do you know what the will of our allies is? Behind your back our allies really don`t care that much....

But Netanyuhu or some other Israeli leader better be at the peace talks with a full Israeli settlement freeze in place by 10/27/2010 or that US veto may be withdrawn. -- sorry the US will not withdrawe their veto. Truth be told you are eating a double portion of your mushrooms!!

The Israelis are already settling on disputed land again, and why should not they pay a price for their defiance? If Israel demands to pig it all they may end up with nothing. What price might that be? Who is going to do shit to israel?? Nobody thats who!!

Must be some good shrooms you use!!

 

[JEDIYoda]

The other thing to point out is that Abbas now threatens to resign from Palestinian leadership. After all, he is a very old man at 76, and even if he has dedicated much of his life to non violence, he has delivered doddly squat to the Palestinians.

But if nothing else, Abbas has younger deputies who have done much to replace Arifat corruption with competent leadership. But in the last few years some diplomacy has occurred with a possible reunification of Hamas and Fatah, or maybe the Palestinians will find a Palestinian Gandhi, or Palestinian leadership may shift east to Turkey and Lebanon. As for Egypt and Jordon who are still being bribed by the US to support Israeli
Palestinian embargo policies, Jordon and Egypt may simply end all Israeli embargo co-operation and wholeheartedly support a Palestinian state that would provide a buffer state between them and Israel. And then Egypt and Jordon could make a fortune in cross border trade as a viable Palestinian trade develops.

All wild speculation brought on by your mushroom abuse...rofl..hahaha

 

[Jhhnn]

Abbas needs to hold out, keep talking, until after the US elections. Whatever friends he might have in the US are powerless to do much for him until then, given AIPAC influence.

After that, we'll see.

What would a "just peace" look like, JEDIYoda, w/o a settlement freeze and a rollback of some existing settlements, anyway?

 

[JEDIYoda]

What would a "just peace" look like, JEDIYoda, w/o a settlement freeze and a rollback of some existing settlements, anyway?

Define a "just" peace..............

 

[Lemon law]

Well JediY you are munching Mushrooms at unprecedented rates.

All of Netanyuhu's delusions are invested in the USA bailing his ass out no matter what, and Obama has so many ways of pulling the rug out on that delusion.

Then you say, "Secondly ther Arabs as a whole are not capable of doing anything to Israel other than talking tough." When all the Arab States have to do is cease co-operating with the Israeli embargo. Its not an act of war, they are free and sorveign nations with no love of Israel.

Then you go on to bleat, "There is nothing the US will lose if this so called settlement does not happen!!
How do you know what the will of our allies is? Behind your back our allies really don`t care that much...."

Earth to JediY, we and our allies are now facing a choice, support 5.6 million bat shit greedy Israeli Jews or lose the support of 275 million Arabs with oil while mid-east peace, Western diplomacy credibility, and humanity hang in the balance.

I suppose you think the UN, the USA, the EU, and the Russians have ALL been pressuring Israel to extend the settlement freeze because they don't care?????????????

Maybe its time for you to realize Israel lost all of its credibility at Annapolis, and the only way to restore Israeli reality after 43 years is for the world to say onto Israel, get back to the table with a full settlement freeze or else.

The or else can start small and keep escalating until Israel gets the message.

The other thing your mushroom munching has failed to address, is how many nations still support Israel? Its still zero or have you failed to notice?

Why should the USA support Israel when Israel keeps insulting US foreign policy every step of the way?

Point granted Obama may not be ready to accept a UN declared Israeli State quite YET, but lots of lesser multiple ways to send the US message to Israel that they better get their ass back to the table with full settlement freeze in advance, get things settled within a year, and failing that Israel almost certainly can't count on a US veto of a UN declared Palestinian state.

After 43 years of Israeli bullshit, there has to come a point where all bad things come to an end. And you,JEDIY, will still be munching mushrooms when it happens.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Well JediY you are munching Mushrooms at unprecedented rates.

All of Netanyuhu's delusions are invested in the USA bailing his ass out no matter what, and Obama has so many ways of pulling the rug out on that delusion. -- sad too disappoint you but Israel doesn`t need our aid or support! They did just fine before we decided we needed them!!

Then you say, "Secondly ther Arabs as a whole are not capable of doing anything to Israel other than talking tough." When all the Arab States have to do is cease co-operating with the Israeli embargo. Its not an act of war, they are free and sorveign nations with no love of Israel. -- sorry but again you opened your mouth and inserted foot -- none of the arab states have ever sided with Israel on anything!! Even Egypt does what it does because they realized that living in peace with Israel beat getting your butt kicked in a war!!

Then you go on to bleat, "There is nothing the US will lose if this so called settlement does not happen!!
How do you know what the will of our allies is? Behind your back our allies really don`t care that much...." -- I Ask you the same question oh dillusional one. You seem to want to believe that our allies will turn on us and gang up on israel. That`s a crock of shit and you know it!!!

Earth to JediY, we and our allies are now facing a choice, support 5.6 million bat shit greedy Israeli Jews or lose the support of 275 million Arabs with oil while mid-east peace, Western diplomacy credibility, and humanity hang in the balance. How do you figure that? Show me a few li9nks to back up your use of the mushrooms? No Arab state has come out and said this...please show me....

I suppose you think the UN, the USA, the EU, and the Russians have ALL been pressuring Israel to extend the settlement freeze because they don't care????????????? - truth be told they actually don`t care at all. What have they tangibly done to show the world that they care? Nothing except lip service....

Maybe its time for you to realize Israel lost all of its credibility at Annapolis, and the only way to restore Israeli reality after 43 years is for the world to say onto Israel, get back to the table with a full settlement freeze or else.
So lets us look at what you just said......okay...now lets look at your credibility even amongst people who would agree with you -- you have none!


The or else can start small and keep escalating until Israel gets the message.
How can it mescalate? Your are abusing your mushrooms my friend!!

The other thing your mushroom munching has failed to address, is how many nations still support Israel? Its still zero or have you failed to notice?
You have no clue how many friend Israel has other than what you dream about! You would be terribly suprised to know there are many who understand the situation from both sides.

Why should the USA support Israel when Israel keeps insulting US foreign policy every step of the way? -- how is Israel insulting US foreign policy?
Your a freaking idiot dude!!

Point granted Obama may not be ready to accept a UN declared Israeli State quite YET, but lots of lesser multiple ways to send the US message to Israel that they better get their ass back to the table with full settlement freeze in advance, get things settled within a year, and failing that Israel almost certainly can't count on a US veto of a UN declared Palestinian state.

awww boohoo damn cry me a freakin river dude!!
lets pretend the US allowed a UN declared Palestinian State. The first time Hamas or others attacked would be the freakin last time.
The your own flesh and blood the Palestinians, just like you, they are their own worse enemy!
After 43 years of Israeli bullshit, there has to come a point where all bad things come to an end. And you,JEDIY, will still be munching mushrooms when it happens.-- you see thats the difference between you and I...I`m Israeli and your Palestinian. You cannot even control your own duly elected government - the terrorist group Hamas!! As long as hamas has these words in their charter--Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." -- now lets see the UN or the palestinian people do anything about this....

God people this cannot be made up!!

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Abbas needs to hold out, keep talking, until after the US elections. Whatever friends he might have in the US are powerless to do much for him until then, given AIPAC influence.

After that, we'll see.

What would a "just peace" look like, JEDIYoda, w/o a settlement freeze and a rollback of some existing settlements, anyway?

Yeah, Abbas needs to get his continous payday while pretending to be something he's absolutely not.

He has no role at all to play here, there is nothing he can do WHAT SO FUCKING EVER because he doesn't have ANYTHING to do with any Palestinian government.

Without Hamas, there are no grounds for any peace talks, NONE WHAT SO FUCKING EVER and this Obama ploy is cute but entirely meaningless.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Well JediY you are munching Mushrooms at unprecedented rates.

All of Netanyuhu's delusions are invested in the USA bailing his ass out no matter what, and Obama has so many ways of pulling the rug out on that delusion.

Then you say, "Secondly ther Arabs as a whole are not capable of doing anything to Israel other than talking tough." When all the Arab States have to do is cease co-operating with the Israeli embargo. Its not an act of war, they are free and sorveign nations with no love of Israel.

Then you go on to bleat, "There is nothing the US will lose if this so called settlement does not happen!!
How do you know what the will of our allies is? Behind your back our allies really don`t care that much...."

Earth to JediY, we and our allies are now facing a choice, support 5.6 million bat shit greedy Israeli Jews or lose the support of 275 million Arabs with oil while mid-east peace, Western diplomacy credibility, and humanity hang in the balance.

I suppose you think the UN, the USA, the EU, and the Russians have ALL been pressuring Israel to extend the settlement freeze because they don't care?????????????

Maybe its time for you to realize Israel lost all of its credibility at Annapolis, and the only way to restore Israeli reality after 43 years is for the world to say onto Israel, get back to the table with a full settlement freeze or else.

The or else can start small and keep escalating until Israel gets the message.

The other thing your mushroom munching has failed to address, is how many nations still support Israel? Its still zero or have you failed to notice?

Why should the USA support Israel when Israel keeps insulting US foreign policy every step of the way?

Point granted Obama may not be ready to accept a UN declared Israeli State quite YET, but lots of lesser multiple ways to send the US message to Israel that they better get their ass back to the table with full settlement freeze in advance, get things settled within a year, and failing that Israel almost certainly can't count on a US veto of a UN declared Palestinian state.

After 43 years of Israeli bullshit, there has to come a point where all bad things come to an end. And you,JEDIY, will still be munching mushrooms when it happens.

The EU is NOT involved in this, nor is the UK or even the UN, this is a US effort to get peace talks with a clown and the Israeli government started and while the clown is funny, all that can happens is that he clowns around some more, Abbas has NO AUTHORITY in the Palestinian state.

Obama is ready to do nothing, Abbas CAN'T do anything and Israel is kinda confused, what is the offer on the table? THERE IS NONE!

Meanwhile, Israel just bought 20 F35's with acknowledgement from the Obama administration.

You are not on Obamas side if you are against Israel and Abbas side doesn't even exist.

 

[Jhhnn]

What would a "just peace" look like, JEDIYoda, w/o a settlement freeze and a rollback of some existing settlements, anyway?

Define a "just" peace..............

First off, I need to apologize for mis-quoting you- your terms were "just settlement" rather than "just peace", but the question remains valid.

They're your terms, not mine, so parroting them back to me is extremely dishonest, being deliberately obtuse. I can't define what you mean. You have to do that to engage in meaningful discussion at all. Otherwise, it's just weaselism wrapped in emotionally appealing rhetoric.

 

[EagleKeeper]

First off, I need to apologize for mis-quoting you- your terms were "just settlement" rather than "just peace", but the question remains valid.

They're your terms, not mine, so parroting them back to me is extremely dishonest, being deliberately obtuse. I can't define what you mean. You have to do that to engage in meaningful discussion at all. Otherwise, it's just weaselism wrapped in emotionally appealing rhetoric.

Just peace is a phrase that LL has been spouting for multiple years.

It boils down to that Israel gives to the Pals everything and the Pals might give up something to Israel. But other Pal groups and their sponsors are under no obligation to honor any agreement that any Pal group may make with Israel. However, Israel MUST honor everything agreed to across the board.

That is the LL definition of JUST Peace.

 

[Lemon law]

Yeah, Abbas needs to get his continous payday while pretending to be something he's absolutely not.

He has no role at all to play here, there is nothing he can do WHAT SO FUCKING EVER because he doesn't have ANYTHING to do with any Palestinian government.

Without Hamas, there are no grounds for any peace talks, NONE WHAT SO FUCKING EVER and this Obama ploy is cute but entirely meaningless.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is in fact incorrect but oh well.

But the JOS argument thesis seems to be that one must be a established leader of a existing government to do anything.

So I ask you JOS, what elective office did Gandhi hold in the Indian government when he faced down the mighty British empire holding only a hand held spinning wheel? Or George Washington or Nelson Mendella.

As once again, JOS runs through one bogus argument after another trying to justify what can't be justified.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Lemon law states -- what elective office did Gandhi hold in the Indian government when he faced down the mighty British empire holding only a hand held spinning wheel? Or George Washington or Nelson Mendella.

Whata a freaking tool you are of Hamas.....
Did Hamas recruit you? Ohh yeah I remember now..they bought your parents their condo on the mediterranean Sea......

hahahah now you have crassed the line even for yourself....comparing Abbas to Ghandi...hahahaaa...we wont even mention your abuse of the two other people....George Washington or Nelson Mendella.....rofl....

 

[Jhhnn]

Just peace is a phrase that LL has been spouting for multiple years.

It boils down to that Israel gives to the Pals everything and the Pals might give up something to Israel. But other Pal groups and their sponsors are under no obligation to honor any agreement that any Pal group may make with Israel. However, Israel MUST honor everything agreed to across the board.

That is the LL definition of JUST Peace.

Please don't engage in your own version of dishonesty, CC. If Israel and her supporters want peace, or settlement, or whatever you want to call it, then they need to define their own terms for negotiation to proceed at all. Obviously, a permanent end to Israeli settlement would be a necessary part of it, as would be the necessary evacuation of some settlements.

Yet Israel refuses to acknowledge that as necessary, indicating that they aren't really seeking any accord at all. As I've offered, they're not done yet, and clearly intend to settle on more disputed territory. Otherwise, they'd declare a permanent freeze so as to be honest, create an environment where meaningful compromise can occur.

The entire Hamas vs Fatah line of reasoning is merely simulated rationality. Nobody has disputed the idea that both the Bush Admin and the Israelis openly supported and encouraged Fatah's revolt against the duly elected Hamas govt. They installed the Fatah govt in the West Bank, plain and simple. But now their own supporters claim that govt to be illegitimate, therefore lacking authority to negotiate.

Can't have it both ways... it's like disclaiming one's own illegitimate children, even in the face of DNA confimation.

 

[lothar]

The other thing to point out is that Abbas now threatens to resign from Palestinian leadership. After all, he is a very old man at 76, and even if he has dedicated much of his life to non violence, he has delivered doddly squat to the Palestinians.

But if nothing else, Abbas has younger deputies who have done much to replace Arifat corruption with competent leadership. But in the last few years some diplomacy has occurred with a possible reunification of Hamas and Fatah, or maybe the Palestinians will find a Palestinian Gandhi, or Palestinian leadership may shift east to Turkey and Lebanon. As for Egypt and Jordon who are still being bribed by the US to support Israeli
Palestinian embargo policies, Jordon and Egypt may simply end all Israeli embargo co-operation and wholeheartedly support a Palestinian state that would provide a buffer state between them and Israel. And then Egypt and Jordon could make a fortune in cross border trade as a viable Palestinian trade develops.

He can resign if he wants. Even if he were to call a Palestinian presidential election today, he'd lose(and so would his designated "Fatah" successor) to a Hamas candidate.
Abbas is pretty much powerless. He's only still there because we've been funding his special Presidential Guard to the tunes of tens of millions of dollars. He got a free ride in the last election because Hamas failed to nominate/endorse a candidate.

After seeing your last paragraph, I have to agree with JEDIYoda for the first time ever.
That's some serious shrooms you got there.
Puff, puff, pass?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is in fact incorrect but oh well.

But the JOS argument thesis seems to be that one must be a established leader of a existing government to do anything.

So I ask you JOS, what elective office did Gandhi hold in the Indian government when he faced down the mighty British empire holding only a hand held spinning wheel? Or George Washington or Nelson Mendella.

As once again, JOS runs through one bogus argument after another trying to justify what can't be justified.

What can PLO do? PLO isn't at war with Israel, Hamas is and every single time PLO tries to gain strength Hamas and the Palestinians shun them and kill off a few of them.

WHAT can PLO do? What do they have to offer? They sure as hell don't represent any Palestinians any more than the WBC represents you.

Irrelevant bullsheit and false analogies don't help either, wise and beautiful woman.

 

[Lemon law]

I also want to point out that the Brits have a phrase to describe the JOS thesis of, "Meanwhile, Israel just bought 20 F35's with acknowledgement from the Obama administration"

That old wisdom is "its like carrying coal to Newcastle."

Its not a matter of military Israeli hegemony, which is totally dwarfed by the Arsenals of the US, the EU, the Russians, and the Chinese, and instead its all about Israeli moral behavior that can't be sustained as Israeli behavior is called increasingly into question.

Israel is simply becoming a threat to world peace and mid-east stability.

 

[EagleKeeper]

How is Israel a threat to world peace?

 

[Lemon law]

How is Israel a threat to world peace?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because no mid-east problems can be addressed or solved while Israelis a constant irritant in the mid-east. Long past the time that Israeli survival is assured due to military hegemony, Israel does nothing but make 275 million of its neighbors hate their guts, rather than do a damn thing to make friends or peace.

Israel pissed away any chances to make peace at Annapolis and instead again opted for GREED.

Its a very poor long term Israeli strategy, but the force in Some Israeli pigs is strong.

Unlike you Common Courtesy I search for win win strategies, but in the fullness of time, if you think Israel will pig it all, you may live to see the day when the last Israeli is driven into the sea. Even if you don't live to see that day does it matter if its bound to happen unless Israel starts being a mid-east partner rather than a pig.

A Palestinian State would do much to defuse mid-east tensions, failing that Israeli will simply become more isolated.

 

[EagleKeeper]

You are talking about mid-East peace, not world peace.

World peace impacts will also require all the Arab and Muslim nations to accept Israel as a legitamte state. Which many do not.

There would have been peace in the Mid East had the Arabs checked their egos at the door.

And there still can; IF the Arab nations will stop encouraging terrorism against Israel.
without Israel getting peace; the Pal issue is a second hand potatoes.

The Arab countries are not concerned about the Pals; that is an excuse to show against their own ego loss when the Arab ight could not squashed the little infant Jewish bug