Abbas nixes direct Israeli talks without Israeli concessions.

[kylebisme]

How can an Israeli Jew write a book claiming that the "idea of the Jews as a single people or race is a myth, a fiction"?

Note the word I underlined in what you quoted, as that is the answer to your question. In other words, there are many Jews in the world, of a wide variety of backgrounds, arguably a richer diversity than any other ethnic grouping.

At least now that I know you don't belive in Jews I can see things from your viewpoint. So, from your point of view, since there are no Jews there was no Holocaust.

Rather, I don't believe in the mythological notion of Jews being "a single people or race" which the Nazis used to justify systematically murdering Jews by the millions. On the other hand, as to you seem intent on denying the diversity in backgrounds amongst Jewish people to brand them all "a single people or race", much like Hitler did, and you continue to slander me for not sharing in that racist ideology.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Note the word I underlined in what you quoted, as that is the answer to your question. In other words, there are many Jews in the world, of a wide variety of backgrounds, arguably a richer diversity than any other ethnic grouping.


Rather, I don't believe in the mythological notion of Jews being "a single people or race" which the Nazis used to justify systematically murdering Jews by the millions. On the other hand, as to you seem intent on denying the diversity in backgrounds amongst Jewish people to brand them all "a single people or race", much like Hitler did, and you continue to slander me for not sharing in that racist ideology.

I`m sorry to disappoint you but it is NOt a racist idea.....
It`s the truth!!

 

[Freshgeardude]

Rather, I call both you and LL out on your misrepresentations of reality, and anyone else I see doing the same, and am always happy to cite sources which actually substantiate what I say.

LOL bull fucking shit. You never post sources. you post these random posts on some random website thats on the corner of the internet.

I can post 20 different websites that will say exactly what I say.


Go check the bottom of any wikipedia page i post.

 

[NoWhereM]

Note the word I underlined in what you quoted, as that is the answer to your question. In other words, there are many Jews in the world, of a wide variety of backgrounds, arguably a richer diversity than any other ethnic grouping.

What I quoted had words underlined, the link to "The Invention of the Jewish People". That doesn't answer my question about how a jew can write a book about the myth, the fiction, of the jewish people.

Yes, other races can become jewish by converting, but you can't convert to Judaism if it doesn't exist. As far as I can tell you have a bit of problem with your world view that you might try to reconcile.

Rather, I don't believe in the mythological notion of Jews being "a single people or race" which the Nazis used to justify systematically murdering Jews by the millions. On the other hand, as to you seem intent on denying the diversity in backgrounds amongst Jewish people to brand them all "a single people or race", much like Hitler did, and you continue to slander me for not sharing in that racist ideology.

So believing that the jewish people written about in the the history books of numerous ancient civilizations exist means I'm a racist? I'll have to puzzle over that one for a while.

 

[Jhhnn]

I can post 20 different websites that will say exactly what I say.

Then do so.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Then do so.

I have. fucking idiot

 

[kylebisme]

What I quoted had words underlined...

No, nothing in what you've quoted here has any words underlined, and your post just gets more delusional from there, so I'm not going to bother addressing it.

 

[NoWhereM]

...there are many Jews in the world, of a wide variety of backgrounds, arguably a richer diversity than any other ethnic grouping.

...I don't believe in the mythological notion of Jews being "a single people or race"

No, you belive in The Invention of the Jewish People.

... Shlomo Sand of Tel Aviv University in Israel argues in his book The Invention of the Jewish People, translated into English last year, that most modern Jews do not descend from the ancient Land of Israel but from groups that took on Jewish identities long afterward.

Such notions, however, clash with several recent studies suggesting that Jewishness, including the Ashkenazi version, has deep genetic roots. In what its authors claim is the most comprehensive study thus far, a team led by geneticist Harry Ostrer of the New York University School of Medicine concludes today that all three Jewish groups—Middle Eastern, Sephardic, and Ashkenazi—share genomewide genetic markers that distinguish them from other worldwide populations.

It must be humiliating for the man to have scientific studies disproving his hypothesis discussed on his book's Wiki page. Anyone bothering to read that page wouldn't bother reading his book let alone purchase it.

 

[Lemon law]

In terms of life in Gaza, which some Israelis have likened to the Warsaw ghetto, here is a link from the NYT that may make an interesting read regarding the future of Hamas and Fatah.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/14/world/middleeast/14gaza.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

 

[kylebisme]

No, you belive in The Invention of the Jewish People.

If you check the paragraph right after the one you quoted, you'll find the second sentence says:

However, geneticist Noah Rosenberg of the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, says that although the study "does not appear to support" the Khazar hypothesis, it "doesn't entirely eliminate it either.

And if you follow the link to the source cited for that quote, you'll find the concluding paragraph:

The study does not address the status of groups whose claim to Jewishness has been controversial, such as Ethiopian Jews, the Lemba from southern Africa, and several groups from India and China. But given the findings of a common genetic origin plus a complex history of admixture, geneticist David Goldstein of Duke University in Durham, North Carolina, says that neither of the "extreme models"—those that see Jewishness as entirely cultural or entirely genetic—"are correct." Rather, Goldstein says, "Jewish genetic history is a complicated mixture of both genetic continuity from an ancestral population and extensive admixture."

Which is exactly what Shlomo Sand documents from a historical perspective, as I've explained previously.

It must be humiliating for the man to have scientific studies disproving his hypothesis discussed on his book's Wiki page. Anyone bothering to read that page wouldn't bother reading his book let alone purchase it.

Rather, it's annoying to ignorant racists editing Wiki to misrepresent the genetic and historical evidence, but one has to expect they'd be compelled to do so in rejection of Sand's book. On the other hand, you can find a refutation of such racism at the Wiki page on scientific racism, notably:

Furthermore, according to John Efron of Indiana University, the late 19th century also witnessed "the scientizing of anti-Jewish prejudice," stigmatizing Jews with male menstruation, pathological hysteria, and nymphomania. At the same time, several Jews, such as Joseph Jacobs or Samuel Weissenberg, also endorsed the same pseudo-scientific theories, convinced that the Jews formed a distinct race. Chaim Zhitlovsky also attempted to define Yiddishkayt (Ashkenazi Jewishness) by turning to contemporary racial theory.

Hopefully you don't go edit that to perpetuate your racist ideology.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Well maybe ole EagleKeeper hit the crux of the matter with, "When did the Palestinians want a state and "peace"?
Only after they realized that they could not steal it from the Jews."

Well maybe two versions of revisionist history here. Is it a matter that the poorly armed Palestinians tried to steal from Israel, or is it a matter of the Palestinians realizing they could never steal back what Israel stole from them?

As we ask what came first, the chicken or the egg, we still have to realize it was the surrounding Arab States with armies and not the Palestinians that attacked Israel in 1948.

Lordie, it really strange how mid-east logic works out, the lying liars who dish out the propaganda, and the sucking suckers who unquestioning eat up the bullshit like its fine aged taste good shit.

What ever happened to being able to look at the merits and demerits of both sides?

Funny that the Palestinians and their decendents that supported the Arab armies in attempts to exterminate the Jews are the ones that are screaming for a Palestinian state.

Remember that many left to other Arab countries on the promise/assumption that they would be able to come back once the Jews were destroyed and they would have the original Arab section of Palestine plus the Jewish section (Isreal).

That sounds like pre-planned theft / land grab.

After 30 years, it seemed such ideals did not work out, then terrorist actions over the past 40 years have not worked out; so they come crying for sympathy and mea-culpa. And still when Isreal has given land for peace back to the Palestinians; the Palestinians keep with the terrorist patterns.

So how much peace do the Palestinians really want?
Isreal is not going to let a hostile state grown on its borders.
Remove the hostility and let there be peace.

 

[EagleKeeper]

In terms of life in Gaza, which some Israelis have likened to the Warsaw ghetto, here is a link from the NYT that may make an interesting read regarding the future of Hamas and Fatah.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/14/world/middleeast/14gaza.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

“All the land is ours. We should turn the Jews into refugees and then let the international community take care of them.”

Above is from a Hamas leader in Gaza

And you expect Israel to bend over for this?

 

[kylebisme]

Funny that the Palestinians and their decendents that supported the Arab armies in attempts to exterminate the Jews are the ones that are screaming for a Palestinian state.

Spouting lies to deny peoples rights isn't funny at all.

Remember that many left to other Arab countries on the promise/assumption that they would be able to come back once the Jews were destroyed and they would have the original Arab section of Palestine plus the Jewish section (Isreal).

One can't rightly remember what never happened.

That sounds like pre-planned theft / land grab.

The theft/land grab started in November 1947, when Jewish militias and terrorist groups started ethnically cleansing Palestinians from across both sides of the UN partition plan, displacing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians before the Arab states sent their armies in to stop the madness. As for pre-planning, early Zionist leaders had their sights set on a much larger chunk of land, though of course others have been less covetous.

After 30 years, it seemed such ideals did not work out...

Israelis continuing to colonize the West Bank while blaming their victims is what has been working out for 42 years now, with people like yourself cheering it on.

Remove the hostility and let there be peace.

Exactly, which is why I support a two-state solution on the basis of international law. Why don't you?

 

[NoWhereM]

Hopefully you don't go edit that to perpetuate your racist ideology.

I see you have a new signiture:

Truth is an unwelcome entity. It is disturbing. It is off limits. Those who speak it run the risk of being branded “anti-American,” “anti-semite” or “conspiracy theorist.” - Paul Craig Roberts

To sum up your argument, the Palestinian people simply want to live in peace in their ancestrial homeland. The Jews in Israel, who are not a race but a religious group, are zionists or the decendants of zionists who have conspired to create a Jewish homeland that historically never existed. You are not a racist or an anti-semite, but my belief in an historical Jewish people who lived thousands of years ago in the land you call Palestine is racist and not supported either by genetics or history.


Editing to add I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[kylebisme]

I see you have a new signiture:

Yeah, I stumbled across someone else mentioning Paul Craig Roberts and it reminded me of the article I quoted it from, and I decided I liked that quote better than the old one.

By the way, if someone Zionist in this thread would have had a quote from a bigot like Winston Churchill in his signature, but not a quote expressing any bigotry towards Arabs at all, would you have attacked the Zionist for it like you did me?

To sum up your argument, the Palestinian people simply want to live in peace in their ancestrial homeland.

Yeah, most of them anyway.

The Jews in Israel, who are not a race but a religious group, are zionists or the decendants of zionists who have conspired to create a Jewish homeland that historically never existed.

Jews are an ethnic group, many of whom aren't religious at all but only culturally Jewish. Also, while most Jews are Zionists, the vast majority of Zionists aren't Jews, but rather Christians, and it was such Christians and corporate factcats who came up with the scheme to colonize Palestine with Jews way back when hardly a Jew in the world had an interest in anything of the sort.

You are not a racist or an anti-semite...

Not by any stretch.

...but my belief in an historical Jewish people who lived thousands of years ago in the land you call Palestine is racist and not supported either by genetics or history.

No, it's supported by history, many Jews have some lineage to the people who lived thousands of years ago in the lands I call Israel and Palestine when speaking of the present. However, Palestinians share that history in the region, being largely descended from people who lived in the region since pre-Biblical times, many of their ancestors having been Jews themselves. So, the historical argument doesn't hold any watter.

 

[NoWhereM]

Yeah, I stumbled across someone else mentioning Paul Craig Roberts and it reminded me of the article I quoted it from, and I decided I liked that quote better than the old one.

By the way, if someone Zionist in this thread would have had a quote from a bigot like Winston Churchill in his signature, but not a quote expressing any bigotry towards Arabs at all, would you have attacked the Zionist for it like you did me?


Yeah, most of them anyway.


Jews are an ethnic group, many of whom aren't religious at all but only culturally Jewish. Also, while most Jews are Zionists, the vast majority of Zionists aren't Jews, but rather Christians, and it was such Christians and corporate factcats who came up with the scheme to colonize Palestine with Jews way back when hardly a Jew in the world had an interest in anything of the sort.


Not by any stretch.


No, it's supported by history, many Jews have some lineage to the people who lived thousands of years ago in the lands I call Israel and Palestine when speaking of the present. However, Palestinians share that history in the region, being largely descended from people who lived in the region since pre-Biblical times, many of their ancestors having been Jews themselves. So, the historical argument doesn't hold any watter.

To answer your one question, before this thread I had no idea who the person you were quoting was, though I now know he was a favorite of both Wagner and Hitler. Do you find it odd, though, that after reading only a couple of your posts I would suspect you were quoting an anti-semite?

Regarding the portion I bolded, you can't have it both ways. What I belive is either a "racist ideology" as you called it before, or it isn't.

 

[kylebisme]

Do you find it odd, though, that after reading only a couple of your posts I would suspect you were quoting an anti-semite?

Yes, particularly odd as I'm no bigot by any strech, and I didn't even know he was a bigot myself. Granted, there was a lot of bigotry back in his day, so I'm not shocked to find out he was one. That said, I'm still curious as to if you would attack a Zionist for quoting a non-bigoted comment from Winston Churchill in his signature?

Regarding the portion I bolded, you can't have it both ways.

What you bolded is me stating the fact that many Jews and Palestinians have some lineage to the people who lived thousands of years ago in what is now Israel and Palestine, and I don't want it any other way. You on the other hand have been claimimg Jews constitute a single race who have greater right to the land than the Palestinians who've been living there throughout history, which is absurdly racist.

By the way, I'm curious as to how you choose divide humanity into separate races exactly. Do you simply consider us all either Jews or goyim, or what system of categorization do you use?

 

[Jhhnn]

That's all you've got, NoWhereM? trying to paint Kylebisme with the anti semite brush because he quoted Schopenhauer?

Even a blind squirrel finds a few acorns, which what can be said about that quote from Schopenhauer. It has absolutely nothing to do with antisemitism, but you already knew that...

Here- I'll run it past you again, and you can explain how it's anti semitic in the slightest-

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

Tell us, O great replacement for IHV...

 

[NoWhereM]

That's all you've got, NoWhereM? trying to paint Kylebisme with the anti semite brush because he quoted Schopenhauer?

Even a blind squirrel finds a few acorns, which what can be said about that quote from Schopenhauer. It has absolutely nothing to do with antisemitism, but you already knew that...

Here- I'll run it past you again, and you can explain how it's anti semitic in the slightest-

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

Tell us, O great replacement for IHV...

Nuts!

Of course Israel can continue to thumb their nose at that obligation as long as US veto power over the UNSC is exploited to protect them form sanctions and embargoes, but that can only last so long, just like it only lasted so long with apartheid South Africa.

They most certainly were, as Zionists are the ones who make the choice to come to Palestine and colonize the land out from under the people there. Palestinians did nothing to provoke that.

There's nothing to support your claim of "jews bought the land legally from the british" in anything you quoted, and what land Zionists did buy from the Ottomans and such was a small fraction compared to what they've stolen.

So as I sad; Zionists were the instgators, as they are the ones who made the choice to come to Palestine and colonize the land out from under the people there. Palestinians did nothing to provoke that.

Zionists were the instigators, as they are the ones who made the choice to come to Palestine and colonize the land out from under the people there. That's a fact, proven by the documentation of Zionists scheming up the plan on their own all the way back in the 1800s, the Blackstone Memorial being a notable example.

There's nothing in what you quoted to support your claim of Zionists buying land from the British, and the fact that "Palestinian Arabs saw this rapid influx of Jewish immigrants as a threat to their homeland and their identity as a people" attest to the fact that Zionists were the instigated the conflict by scheming to colonize the region out from under the people living there.

Tell me, do you also claim that Native Americans instigated the conflict with European colonists, or do you simply hold different standards for Jewish colonists?

Rather, I don't believe in the mythological notion of Jews being "a single people or race" which the Nazis used to justify systematically murdering Jews by the millions. On the other hand, as to you seem intent on denying the diversity in backgrounds amongst Jewish people to brand them all "a single people or race", much like Hitler did, and you continue to slander me for not sharing in that racist ideology.

The theft/land grab started in November 1947, when Jewish militias and terrorist groups started ethnically cleansing Palestinians from across both sides of the UN partition plan, displacing hundreds of thousands of Palestinians before the Arab states sent their armies in to stop the madness. As for pre-planning, early Zionist leaders had their sights set on a much larger chunk of land, though of course others have been less covetous.

Jews are an ethnic group, many of whom aren't religious at all but only culturally Jewish. Also, while most Jews are Zionists, the vast majority of Zionists aren't Jews, but rather Christians, and it was such Christians and corporate factcats who came up with the scheme to colonize Palestine with Jews way back when hardly a Jew in the world had an interest in anything of the sort.

No, it's supported by history, many Jews have some lineage to the people who lived thousands of years ago in the lands I call Israel and Palestine when speaking of the present. However, Palestinians share that history in the region, being largely descended from people who lived in the region since pre-Biblical times, many of their ancestors having been Jews themselves. So, the historical argument doesn't hold any watter.

By the way, I'm curious as to how you choose divide humanity into separate races exactly. Do you simply consider us all either Jews or goyim, or what system of categorization do you use?

 

[NoWhereM]

You on the other hand have been claimimg Jews constitute a single race who have greater right to the land than the Palestinians who've been living there throughout history, which is absurdly racist.

I don't want to review all my posts, please point out the post in which I said that.

By the way, I'm curious as to how you choose divide humanity into separate races exactly. Do you simply consider us all either Jews or goyim, or what system of categorization do you use?

I didn't know you could divide humanity into either Jews or goyim. I'll have to look into that.

 

[Lemon law]

In termsof a settlement freeze, the question is Israel even holding up on their own pledges.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/15/world/middleeast/15settlements.html?ref=middleeast

 

[EagleKeeper]

In termsof a settlement freeze, the question is Israel even holding up on their own pledges.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/15/world/middleeast/15settlements.html?ref=middleeast

These projects were authorized and/or started well before the Freeze went into effect.

New projects have not been - per the Freeze.

 

[Lemon law]

These projects were authorized and/or started well before the Freeze went into effect.

New projects have not been - per the Freeze.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As the article pointed out, many of these project were rushed to being authorized in anticipation of a freeze, and when they go ahead in spite of a settlement freeze, its not accurate to call it a settlement freeze.

A true settlement freeze would be NO added Israeli settlements at all in disputed territory.

 

[Jhhnn]

These projects were authorized and/or started well before the Freeze went into effect.

New projects have not been - per the Freeze.

And it seems likely that a whole shitpile of future projects are ready and waiting to be "authorized"when the current "freeze" ends... so that settlement will continue during the next "freeze"...

Same old story, same old song and da-a-a-ance...

 

[kylebisme]

I don't want to review all my posts, please point out the post in which I said that.

You've implied it with ridiculous arguments like this:

It's obvious that you don't even realize that the earliest possible concept of a Palestinian people traces back to 1834.

As if the fact that the term "Palestinian" didn't come into use until recently does anything to change the fact that the people commonly called Palestinians today are largely descended from people who've in the region since pre-Biblical times.

I didn't know you could divide humanity into either Jews or goyim. I'll have to look into that.

Yeah, "goyim" means "non-Jew". So, while you consider Jews to be a single race, but your racist ideology isn't as simple as considering everyone else the other race; what list of other races do you use to distinguish between the rest of humanity?