kylebisme
Diamond Member
- Mar 25, 2000
- 9,396
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Actually, I know very little about the guy, but I'm a fan of the quote. I looked up what you mentioned though, and from that I see you are a dipshit.I see you're a fan of Arthur Schopenhauer.
Actually, I know very little about the guy, but I'm a fan of the quote. I looked up what you mentioned though, and from that I see you are a dipshit.I see you're a fan of Arthur Schopenhauer.
if President Obama is willing to talk to Iran, Syria, North Korea, and Cuba without preconditions, surely Abbas can do the same with Israel.
"The notion that not talking to countries is punishment... is ridiculous. We may not trust them, but we have the obligation to find areas where we can potentially move forward and it's a disgrace that we have not talked to them."
Oh, please. The Israelis have talked, talked, talked and talked some more off and on for over 30 years, nibbling on what little the pals have the whole time. They talk when pressured to do so, settle nothing, because they don't want to settle anything. What is it that the pals have gained from past talks? What have they lost as a consequence of talking, of legitimizing Israeli greed?
Of course they did. They attacked "pre-emptively" in 1967, remember? I'm not really sure that even they believed an attack on them was imminent, but they've since convinced a lot of people that it was...
If the Israelis can't find a way to accept the conditions that Abbas wants, what it means is that they're not done, not content with what they've taken, and intend to take more. Which means that Abbas shouldn't grant them any legitimacy, consent to more Israeli dodging and obfuscation... which is what they've done for over 30 years.
Only the most partisan Israeli fanbois and propagandists can fail to recognize that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------if President Obama is willing to talk to Iran, Syria, North Korea, and Cuba without preconditions, surely Abbas can do the same with Israel.
"The notion that not talking to countries is punishment... is ridiculous. We may not trust them, but we have the obligation to find areas where we can potentially move forward and it's a disgrace that we have not talked to them."
"We may not trust them, but we have the obligation to find areas where we can potentially move forward and it's a disgrace that we have not talked to them."----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To Start out Loki, Israeli is not talking to Hamas, which is more in line with the USA not talking to Iran, Syria, the North Vietnamese, and Cuba. If the USA can talk to their avowed enemies, why can't Israel talk to Hamas?
Then you loki, go on to make two more big distortions. (1) Since we have a almost two decade plus track record of previous Israeli Fatah talks, the Netanyuhu statement of no preconditions is simply a code phrase for lets start out totally fresh and not build on the previous talks, many as recent as 2008. In short we already know what the issues are, now all that is lacking is for both sides to make the concessions to get a just peace. Starting out fresh is absurd, but as all can see, exactly what Israel wants. (2) For 37 years Israel has profited from its own refusal to come to any agreements, as it keeps settling on disputed land. Any real peace talks must break that cycle, making sure neither side profits from delay.
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No, FGD, you may miss the whole point, while Abbas is powerless to make any demands, Israel, has finally totally lost all the moral high ground.
And its now the entire world that has lost all faith in all the Israeli excuses used for the past 37 years, and if Israeli refuses to make a settlement freeze while TALKS on a Viable Palestinian State PROGRESS FORWARD, the same ole same ole Israeli stall tactic
are going to go over like a lead balloon. And Israel will not like the consequences.
Unless I am wrong, the rising tide of Israel receded years ago, and the Israeli falling tide is to the point where its apparently falling fast. Nor is the USA the mid-east decider, its mainly the entire rest of the world that is disgusted with Israeli present politics.
The point being, the world is behind the Abbas position because it makes logical historical sense, and the Israeli position will not fly.
To a certain extent A. Lieberman is about as credible as the Iraqi information minister. Another tough talking vainglorious clown who said Iraq would kick US butt, and the damn fool did not shut up until US tanks rolled into Baghdad, surrounding his radio station among other things, and he finally decided to STFU. He was such a damn clown, that the US did not even try to press criminal charges against him.
The North Koreans have talked, talked, talked and talked some more off and on for over 30 years. They talk when pressured to do so, settle nothing, because they don't want to settle anything. What is it that the West has gained from past talks? What have they lost as a consequence of talking, of legitimizing North Korean greed?
and yet, President Obama would still be willing to talk with North Korea without preconditions.
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To Start out Loki, Israeli is not talking to Hamas, which is more in line with the USA not talking to Iran, Syria, the North Vietnamese, and Cuba. If the USA can talk to their avowed enemies, why can't Israel talk to Hamas?
Then you loki, go on to make two more big distortions. (1) Since we have a almost two decade plus track record of previous Israeli Fatah talks, the Netanyuhu statement of no preconditions is simply a code phrase for lets start out totally fresh and not build on the previous talks, many as recent as 2008. In short we already know what the issues are, now all that is lacking is for both sides to make the concessions to get a just peace. Starting out fresh is absurd, but as all can see, exactly what Israel wants. (2) For 37 years Israel has profited from its own refusal to come to any agreements, as it keeps settling on disputed land. Any real peace talks must break that cycle, making sure neither side profits from delay.
Binding arbitration will only work if all sides are willing to abide.EagleKeeper, all peace negotiations are complicated messy affairs. Some succeed because there enough people of good faith on both sides who want to end the state of conflict. And other do not succeed, often because one side finds a State of conflict far more advantageous than the painful concessions needed to reach a just peace. But the rhetorical questions dialog you spout, is just a smokescreen excuse to cover up the fact that Israeli wants to retain the land it cannot own.
Were it up to me at this point in time, I would have two peace talk negotiations going on at the same time. (1) An Israeli Palestinian set of talks, and if they can ink a deal acceptable to both by 12/31/2012, all well and fine. (2) A set of binding third party arbitration talks, charged with coming up with a fair and final settlement, ready to on 12/31/2012. And should the Palestinian Israeli talks fail, both sides follow the then unknown secret third party binding arbitration plan come 1/1/2013. Both sides can like it or lump it but they follow it anyway.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Binding arbitration will only work if all sides are willing to abide.
That also included the involvement of all parties impacted.
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In one word wrong, a world wide economic embargo is all that is needed to get Israel to abide.
But I will say, its preferable that both sides mutually agree, but we have been there done that and its clear that Israel refuses to make the needed concessions while extending control of disputed territories Israel cannot own.
The time has come to say to Israel, either make an just plan acceptable to both sides or the world will do it for you. 37 years and NO progress is not getting just old, it far beyond the point where it rotten and it reeks.
Because the gauntlet is already thrown down by the bulk of the world, a viable Palestinian State by 2012
Hamas simply will not get what they want in terms of their destroy Israel doctrine. But even Hamas knows they cannot effect their dream scenario.
But FGD, you may be confused here about the real identity of the Israeli people and the Palestinian people. Neither the Palestinian people or the Israeli people can be assumed to be an united single identity. Nor are we in the USA, or for that matter, everywhere else, a unified single mind entity.
In the US we are divided by political parties, we can be divided into Hawks and Doves, conservatives and liberals, or what ever criteria you can imagine. All vying to be in a position where some single criteria achieves a majority position in the government in question. And if the GOP screws up, the dems will win the next election, if the dems screw up, the GOP will win the next election.
Why should Hamas be any different? If the Palestinian people in Gaza, where Hamas is dominant, are offered a chance to form a viable Palestinian State, Hamas will either climb aboard, recognize Israel, or the people of Gaza will simply give Hamas the same ole heave ho the American people gave the GOP in 11/2008. Sadly for Israel and Fatah, its a two edged sword, if Fatah can't deliver a Palestinian State soon, the West Bank may vote out Fatah and replace it with Hamas.
As for Israel, maybe 40% of the Israeli people have always opposed the 60% of the majority hardliners, and if Israeli hardliners refuse to wake up and smell the coffee, it may take some international economic embargoes of Israel to prod the Israeli people to change leadership. The second leading Israeli party Kadima, favors a Palestinian State, and if Netanyuhu stays stuck on stupid, he is likely to be replaced by Kadima.
Because the gauntlet is already thrown down by the bulk of the world, a viable Palestinian State by 2012. And the growing threat is, that Palestinian people will simply declare Statehood and sovereignty over all of East Jerusalem, Gaza, and the West Bank, and if and when the bulk of the UN recognizes the Palestinian state as the only legal entity, Israel as a lone ranger may find itself totally isolated. And the next day, Israel may be forced to withdraw all of its military from that territory or be confronted by the united military might of the entire world.
The old song that sings, "you can't always get what you want." applies especially to Hamas and Israeli hardliners. But it also applies to everyone.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------you've made this assertion a dozen times in this thread. where is it coming from?
The Joker in the deck may be Obama or George Mitchell who may sweeten the pot for Abbas with some unspecified concessions, but still, the major players may not be just the USA, Israel, and the PA, it may be more the international community that gives Israel until no later than 2012, to ink a deal or else regarding a viable Palestinian State.
the only thing google pulls up is saying Israel saying that it's not going to happen by 2012, no mass outcries from the "international community" (whatever the f that means) demanding a Palestinian state by 2012 or else.Or you can also do what I have already did, search on google.