A8N-VM CSM equivalents with dual video outputs?

[renethx]

If you plan to buy two identical LCDs (I strongly recommend to do so for a true productive environment), but if you get one LCD right away and buy another later, say half a year later, some caution is required. LCD will become darker and darker as you use it. After half a year, brightness of the old LCD will be noticeably different from that of the new LCD. It's kind of ugly. You need to adjust brightness. You'd better buy both at the same time (similar to dual RAM).

 

[dingetje]

yeah seems like an extra videocard is the only way to go if you want 2 crt's (you could then disable the onboard 6200 to save memory and just connect 2 crts to the extra gfxcard..

im waiting for my msi k8ngm2-fid

 

[renethx]

Finally I got my MSI K8NGM2-FID and it's already up and running perfectly. (I cloned the entire system drive from my AN8 system.) Look and feeling of the board are really good. I tried to connect one LCD to the video card's VGA port (GF 6200 TC and GF 6600) and one to the motherboard's VGA port. (My LCDs are analog only.) No problem, everything works as if both were connected to the video card. But brightness, contrast and color tone are noticeably different between the 6150 controller and the 6200 TC/6600 controller. These are adjustable in nView, but connecting both to the video card is certainly better.

I found that DVI connector on the board is acutally DVI-D. This is different from the figure in the manual. Did you find the manual? If not, download it from here. Enjoy it!

 

[dingetje]

thanks for letting us know.
dont forget to change your sig ehehe

 

[mset]

Originally posted by: renethx
Finally I got my MSI K8NGM2-FID and it's already up and running perfectly.. These are adjustable in nView, but connecting both to the video card is certainly better.

OK - nice to hear that your setup is working smoothly out of the box. It sure helps me to hear that too.

I found that DVI connector on the board is acutally DVI-D. This is different from the figure in the manual. Did you find the manual? If not, download it from here. Enjoy it!

Hmmm... that's interesting, I'll remember that.

You were the first to post with the correct information about these cards and their ability to run two monitors or not. Someone has since suggested to me that it is something in the RAMDAC (maybe that we need dual RAMDACs to run true dual head?). Whatever it is, I will be choosing a mobo/video card combo in the next little while. Maybe I'll post here for a final review after I have all my components picked out.

Looks like the MSI card is a great option for me, something that will keep me going for at least a couple of years. It also seems that a 6200 TC video card will be best for me.

There are some folks at sudhian.com who are also helping me. Amazing how people will take the time to help someone they don't know

 

[bengalih]

FYI, I'm trying to pull it all together here:

6150 Board Shootout

 

[renethx]

mset,

You may need another considertion. Many users of LCD with DVI say that DVI offers a substantially better and sharper picture than VGA. If this is true and if you connect one LCD to the VGA port and the other LCD to the DVI port on the back panel of the motherboard in future, the image quality might be substantially different between two LCDs. Maybe you'd better continue to use the video card instead of onboard video. If this is the case, there is no reason to buy now a video card with a VGA connector and a DVI connector. Buy a video card with two DVI connectors like these. For the time being, use two dongles to connect CRTs. Once you buy LCDs, you will be in a pure digital environment. The card with two DVIs is available only with 6600 or higher, but this could be a good investment. But if you never use onboard video now or in future, there may not be a good reason to buy a GeForce 6150 board!? It depends on what features you want. If you want SATAII, Gb NIC, 1394, HD audio and HDTV out, MSI 6150 is still the best board. If you prefer overclockbility, there is a better choice. Or if you just want to run Athlon 64 in dual monitors with minimum configurations, there is a much cheaper board. So you have returned to the starting point! One thing very clear is that you will have to buy a video card with dual DVI outs. Just my 2 cents.

 

[mset]

lol.. renethx, you sound like the voices running through my head for the past week or two. Figuring this out with no tech knowledge whatsoever has been a challenge, but I am learning a hell of a lot about computers.

I have arrived at the same point you are at. Yes, there are features on the MSI board that I might want in the future, so that may be a reason to get it now, in particular Firewire. I have no interest in overclockability (a hiss of indrawn breath from the enthusiasts here ....!!). But the more I think about it, the more I think that you are right and that I should just get a dual DVI-I video card.

However, there is one out for me. The K8NGM2-FID has a DVI-I out on it, right? So what happens if I bite the bullet and run only my one big CRT out of the VGA (or DVI-I) out for the next few months and then buy two LCDs after that. I can then drive one LCD with the onboard GPU and drive the other board with a cheaper video card, one that has a DVI-I out. I found an article at xbitlabs which stated specifically that the onboard graphics card is not disabled when you plug a PCI-e video card into a 6150-based mobo. This might be a solution.

At any rate, it's amazing that you would think of this then actually take the time to write it all out for me a week after the thread slowed down. Thank you. I am checking out the 6150 Board Shootout too.

Please post here or PM me with any thoughts that come into your head - they are all welcome, no matter how trivial they may seem to you.

 

[mset]

And by the way, here's another thing I found on the 6150 Shootout thread. What is this all about?

"One other thing that might be important for folks who plan to leave their systems on all the time is that the Asus [A8N-VM CSM] is the only one w/ ECC memory support. Unfortunately, the [K8NGM2-FID] doesn't or I'd get that 😛"

So... I leave my computer on 24/7. Does this mean that I can't do that if I am running the MSI 6150 board?? I find it very hard to believe - I can leave my 4 year old computer on 24/7 with no problems!

 

[renethx]

Originally posted by: mset

So... I leave my computer on 24/7. Does this mean that I can't do that if I am running the MSI 6150 board?? I find it very hard to believe - I can leave my 4 year old computer on 24/7 with no problems!

ECC = error correcting code. ECC memory is used mostly for mission critical applications and business class servers, where memory errors can lead to serious problems.

"A memory error in a calculation could cause the wrong value to go into a bank check. In a server, a memory error could force a system hang and bring down all LAN-resident client systems with subsequent loss of productivity."

Howerver if you use the system privately, you don't have to worry about it. In fact almost all desktop computers use non-ECC memory.

"The statistical probability of memory failures in a modern office desktop computer is now estimated at about one error every few months."

(Citations from "Upgrading and Repairing PCs, 11th Edition")

 

[mset]

ok - thanks for the clarification re: ECC. For a minute I was thinking 'Geez!! You must be kidding me - I can leave my clunker on 24/7 but not my new rig?'

 

[imported_kenyee]

mset:
ECC is only if you use it as a web/file server or something else where you don't want any data corruption at all (memory bit rot). You might notice an app crash occasionally if it does happen and you don't have ECC.

As for your answer, in your quest for a dual LCD monitor, the MSI or Asus will work fine as long as your LCD monitor *also* has a VGA input (it converts analog to digital internally). It's not quite as sharp as pure DVI, but I haven't noticed much of a difference and I've been running my Planar 1280x1024 LCD for years now...

 

[mset]

Originally posted by: kenyee
mset:
ECC is only if you use it as a web/file server or something else where you don't want any data corruption at all (memory bit rot). You might notice an app crash occasionally if it does happen and you don't have ECC.

Hey kenyee

Ok, thanks. As a newb, it does occur to me that ideally I would want to have 0 data corruption too, but I realize that you are talking about enterprise-level conditions where downtime and data corruption can be disastrous. It makes me wonder how many of the small troubles I have encountered with my own machine are due to this kind of data corruption...

As for your answer, in your quest for a dual LCD monitor, the MSI or Asus will work fine as long as your LCD monitor *also* has a VGA input (it converts analog to digital internally). It's not quite as sharp as pure DVI, but I haven't noticed much of a difference and I've been running my Planar 1280x1024 LCD for years now...

renethx also mentioned the difference in video quality between the two outputs in question; I guess I'll just have to find a way to experiment around a bit to see if it matters that much to me. Thanks for posting.

 

[imported_egarrard]

Originally posted by: renethx
mset,

You may need another considertion. If you never use onboard video now or in future, there may not be a good reason to buy a GeForce 6150 board!? It depends on what features you want. If you want SATAII, Gb NIC, 1394, HD audio and HDTV out, MSI 6150 is still the best board. If you prefer overclockbility, there is a better choice. Or if you just want to run Athlon 64 in dual monitors with minimum configurations, there is a much cheaper board. So you have returned to the starting point! One thing very clear is that you will have to buy a video card with dual DVI outs. Just my 2 cents.

There is yet another consideration...

With the change-over that we are in the middle of, of going from analog television to digital, and with the reality of DRM, the 6150 boards with DVI-I out will be an advantage. The new standard is to require a complete digital signal path. I think even Vista is going to require it for some functions. If you are going to possibly want to set up a HTPC/PVR box, then you will need the DVI-I outputs. I think that is one of the main driving forces behind these boards. They were meant to be HTPC boards.

If mset decides at some point (or his girlfriend/wife decides for him) that he needs a HTPC to run High-Def video, he will be already set up, short of plopping in an HD tuner card. He'll still be able to use this motherboard later when he upgrades.

That's my reasoning behind building a system with the MSI board. When the time comes that they drop the analog TV, I don't want to have to rush out an spend $500 or so to get a TV that will work. My computer will take up the slack for a while.

There might be cheaper options for now, but the 6150 boards represent a good investment into the future. The price differential isn't so great as to justify going cheap at all.

Hope this helped with the discussion!

 

[renethx]

mset,

Are you going to keep your 4 year old PC? If so, you will want a KVM switch to run both PCs with one set of keyboard/mouse/dual LCD.

 

[mset]

Originally posted by: renethx
mset,

Are you going to keep your 4 year old PC? If so, you will want a KVM switch to run both PCs with one set of keyboard/mouse/dual LCD.

..... really!!??

You mean I can keep my current machine for email/surfing and make my new machine dedicated for my work only and run both of them at the same time from the same keyboard mouse and drive the same two monitors?

renethx, you have just created another xx hours of work for me... and I can't thank you enough. I have been wondering about how I could do this. Since I only have one high speed connection to the 'Net, and since I need it for both machines, I was imagining having a hub of some sort and then plugging two computers into it and having them both connected to the net at the same time, but I hadn't considered the possibility of running both from the same keyboard/mouse!!

And I certainly didn't think I could run both into the same two monitors!!

(but let's see.. if I want to do that I need to at least upgrade the video card in the old machine so that it will drive two monitors...not that I strictly need two monitors for the mail/surfing computer, but it might be nice)

I had this vision of unplugging and plugging every day....

Off to Google 'KVM switch'.. right now.

 

[renethx]

Originally posted by: mset
..... really!!??

You mean I can keep my current machine for email/surfing and make my new machine dedicated for my work only and run both of them at the same time from the same keyboard mouse and drive the same two monitors?

Yes, you can. This is exactly the configuration of my three systems: all three are controlled by one set of kbd/mouse/dual LCD. You'd better think about this possibility before you go ahead.

To make your work less pain, I will explain details. Kbd/mouse are connected to KVM via either USB or PS/2. In my experience PS/2 is much trouble free than USB. At least my USB KVM does not work in BIOS Setup of MSI board. So if you search for KVM with connection to 2 pcs and 2 moniotors and with PS/2 (search here), only two models will be hitted, here. (I am pretty sure that these are the only models available in the consumer-level market.) As you can see from the specs, LKV-DM02SK accepts analog signal only and LDV-DM02ESK accepts digital signal only. There are several possible combinations. But one thing clear is that you can't mix digital and analog. So the possiblity of using both VGA connector and DVI connector on MSI board is excluded.

KVM switch can be used for ten years or more. So the digital KVM LDV-DM02ESK may be better for future proof, though you can't use it until you buy digital LCDs. Then you buy a nVIDIA PCI-e video card with a DVI out (GeForce 6200 TC, $50) and use DVI onboard, or buy a video card with dual DVI outs (XFX GeForce 6600 GDDR2, $120) for better image quality. If your old pc does not have a DVI-out, you also need to buy a AGP video card with a DVI-out (GeForce FX5200 or Radeon 9200, $40) for single monitor or a AGP card with dual DVI outs (GeForce 6600, $120) for dual monitor.

If you go for the analog KVM LKV-DM02SK ($80 cheaper than the digital model), then the situation is simpler. You can buy any nVIDIA PCI-e video card (e.g. GeForce 6200 TC, $50) as you can use VGA port onboard, or you can buy a PCI-e video card with dual DVI outs (XFX GeForce 6600 GDDR2, $120) if it makes a sense for you. Your old pc has a VGA connector, so you don't need to buy a AGP card if single monitor is enough. Or you can buy an AGP card with dual heads (GeForce FX5200 or Radeon 9200, $40) for dual monitor. Morever a LCD with analog port only is about $50 less than a LCD with both analog and digital. In total, analog solution will save a few hundred dollars. But three years later, these analog devices will be mostly obsolete. But at the same time DVI devices pricier today will be at the same prices as today's analog devices.

I feel that analog solution is better at this time. Your total cost will be 2 x $200 (analog 17" LCD), 1 x $50 (PCI-e GF6200 TC card with dual heads), 1 x $40 (AGP GF FX5200 card with dual heads), $95 (analog KVM) = $585. Or buy digital LCDs (2 x $250) and a PCI-E card with dual DVI heads ($120) instead for mild future proof (total $755).

Switching Audio too? Some KVM models (Belkin Omniview, Iogear) come also with audio switch. IMO this is a really bad idea. You can't hear any sound from the PC not in use, that may be a critical warning sound! You'd better use an audio mixer like Rolls MX42, or buy a cheap speaker.

Selecting LCDs. You should choose LCDs with black color and thin frame. This is not because it is stylish but your eyes will be less distracted by the center frame.

You can use a router to not only connect two PCs but also share Internet connection. Again Gigabit router (like D-Link DGL-4100) is recommended for future proof. (I am using this model.) Just connect two (or more) PCs to LAN ports of the router and connect an ADSL/cable modem to the WAN port of the router, and you are done.

BTW a DVI out on a video card is called DVI-A; it automatically senses the connected device and sends analog or digital signal according to the device. DVI on MSI board is not DVI-A (lacks RAMDAC).

 

[mset]

Originally posted by: renethx
You can use a router to not only connect two PCs but also share Internet connection. Again Gigabit router (like D-Link DGL-4100) is recommended for future proof. (I am using this model.) Just connect two (or more) PCs to LAN ports of the router and connect an ADSL/cable modem to the WAN port of the router, and you are done.

BTW a DVI out on a video card is called DVI-A; it automatically senses the connected device and sends analog or digital signal according to the device. DVI on MSI board is not DVI-A (lacks RAMDAC).

Wow. Thanks so much for taking the time to put this together, I really appreciate it. It is going to help me in a big way. That is a comprehensive guide for KVM.

I may go with the analog KVM switch since system speed is so much more important to me than video quality. I can always upgrade in a few years. I have a feeling that I am going to turn into a bit of a gear-head after all of this, which isn't a bad habit to have, better than some other habits!

So - now I know that I will have to get a mobo with that feature I have been seeing, Gigabit LAN.

Re: DVI-A... man oh man!! I have seen:

VGA, D-COM, D-SUB, DVI-D, DVI-I, RGB, all used to describe a video output, but I have never in the past month seen DVI-A!! Are you saying that the MSI mobo lacks a RAMDAC?

Back to the drawing board. I thought all video cards had to have a RAMDAC. I understand that this doesn't change the basic plan, but its good to know. I guess if there is a dongle (convertor) between the DVI out and the CRT, then the signal will get converted even if the output is not DVI-A, right?

Anyway, it doesn't matter. I am not planning to use the DVI output from a mobo to drive a monitor, I will be using the D-COM port for that and I will drive the other monitor from the DVI-I out of a video card; either that or I will have dula DVI-I outs on a video card and use them.

 

[renethx]

Some correction is needed. DVI-I = DVI-D (digital) + DVI-A (analog). GeForce 6150 has RAMDAC, but it is clearly not used for DVI port.

Originally posted by: mset
I guess if there is a dongle (convertor) between the DVI out and the CRT, then the signal will get converted even if the output is not DVI-A, right?

This is incorrect if a dongle means like this. A true digital-analog converter costs around $400! Digital signal must be converted to analog within a video card before it outpouts from either VGA or DVI-I to connect to CRT, where DAC(Digital-to-Analog Converter) plays a role. RAM = random access memory.

 

[renethx]

Finally I got two LCDs with DVI input and tested them with MSI K8NGM2-FID. I connected two analog LCDs to the video card and two digital LCDs to the onboard DVI and VGA ports. This quadruple display setting works beatifully. I found that the image quality between LCD connected to the onboard DVI and that to the onboard VGA is very small, mostly negligible. But you need to note that this configuration (one LCD connected to the onboard DVI and the other connected to the onboard VGA) is incompatible with a KVM switch.

I also got a dual-head DVI PS/2 KVM switch from Linkskey. This KVM is very disappointing. The biggest problem is that my Logitech MX1000 SetPoint driver is lost each time I switch between computers. Actually SetPoint is loaded by pressing the keys Scroll Lock + Scroll Lock + End, but it is too annoying to be practical. I suspect that the same problem exists in the dual-head VGA PS/2 KVM switch. Also this KVM is not stable in general. I advise to stay away from Linkskey (or StarTech) dual-head PS/2 KVMs.

 

[mset]

Originally posted by: renethx
I connected two analog LCDs to the video card and two digital LCDs to the onboard DVI and VGA ports. This quadruple display setting works beatifully.

Hi again

I missed this addition to the thread. So you got 4 monitors working on that set-up! That's great. But tell me... this means that the two onboard ports (DVI and D-SUB) will work simulatneously, right? That is a little different from what we thought by reading the manual, right? I think when we were talking about it, we thought that the two ports on the onboard video card would not drive monitors at the same time, that it was one or the other.

I have decided to go with a card with dual DVI-I outs but I am very curious about whether your MSI mobo was able to drive two monitors simultaneously from the onboard ports, since someone I know wants me to set up a dual monitor for her, but she does not have the budget for a dual head DVI-I card.

 

[renethx]

Originally posted by: mset
So you got 4 monitors working on that set-up! That's great. But tell me... this means that the two onboard ports (DVI and D-SUB) will work simulatneously, right? That is a little different from what we thought by reading the manual, right? I think when we were talking about it, we thought that the two ports on the onboard video card would not drive monitors at the same time, that it was one or the other.

The onboard DVI and the onboard VGA work simulatneously, just like any other dual-head video card. I confirmed it with my MSI board. The only difference from a dual-head video card is that the onboard DVI is digital signal only. On the other hand many say that the onboard VGA and the onboard TV-out do not work simultaneously. (I haven't tried it.) Perhaps you are confusing the two cases.