A8N-SLI Deluxe, CPU and 2GB RAM

[Emultra]

I have the board above, and 1GB RAM.

I could easily buy another GB, and I want to in fact.

The problem is that my A64 3200+ Winchester will do something with the DDR speed or something if I have more than 1024MB RAM.

My questions:

1. How many Mhz can the A8N-SLI Deluxe support in case of a CPU upgrade, and will it support the upcoming Dual Core Athlon64's?

2. Will another pair of Corsair ValueSelect 1024MB RAM (2x512) fit well with my current pair, to make 4x512MB RAM, and will it still be Dual Channel?

 

[Regulator07]

i def think you are in the wrong forum
but to answer your question, a8n-sli deluxe will support dual core and by MHz i assume you me HT which it supports 1000 (that is not processor speed in case you are wondering)
also, if you upgrade to 4 sticks x 512, you will still have dual channel but the memory will run at ddr333 and it might (not positive) also run at 2T (although i think the venice core helped something with 4 sticks, either 1T or it can run at ddr400). hope that helps

 

[Emultra]

Yeah, the DDR400 to DDR333 is what I am worried about.

Will the new dual cores fix that, and maintain full speed?

 

[Gamingphreek]

The revision E cores (ie Venice, San Diego and beyond) do not have the DDR400 to DDR333 problem. As for all banks full, it will run at 2T but with the A64 on die memory controller the performance difference is negligible.

-Kevin

 

[Emultra]

I'm not familiar with this "T" concept.

Will it always run at 2T, even with a dual core CPU?

The reason that I'm contemplating upgrading is that Battlefield 2 already seems to appreciate more than 1GB, and future games probably will as well. Might as well get some more, but if the added latency (if that is what it is?) is worse than having less memory...?

 

[Gamingphreek]

2T refers to when the data is transmitted. You know that a clock looks like a little wave ~~~~~~~ (you get the picture)

At 1T the data is transmitted at the rise and the fall of the clock ~=~=~=~=

At 2T the data is only transmitted at the rise of the clock ~-~-~-~-

The largest performance hit i have seen running on an A64 is in veyr memory intensive calculations which induced a ~5% performance loss. By no means should that hold you back from buying another gig of RAM.

Unless AMD makes some major modifications to their memory controller it is going to do this regardless. IIRC the only memory controller that will sometimes allow this is the Intel 955X. Sometimes it will allow for 1T with banks loaded.

If you are playing BF2 then i would definitely recommend getting another gig based on Acanthus's results. The performance decrease, if any will be matched and exceeded, even when there is one in some less strenuous games, you MIGHT loses a frame or 2; no big deal. In conclusion 2Gig i most definitely going to be better than having 1Gig, the latency delta is next to nothing.

-Kevin

 

[Emultra]

Okay, so the 2T thing is acceptable, but what about the lowering from DDR400 to DDR333? Is that the bandwidth? Does it have a greater impact?

 

[Gamingphreek]

Yes it would have a noticable impact. However you might have missed this, but the Venice, San Diego, all Dual Core chips, and Rev E Opterons do not have this problem. Wincehsters, Claw and Sledgehammers, and Newcastle do suffer from this.

Really there is no reason to get anything but a Venice or above.

-Kevin

 

[imported_humey]

DDR does it on rise and fall anyhow, the 1T part could be two things, it could be CL value of ram where my Corsair 3200XL (2,5,5,5) does 1T at 400mhz but my NF2 mobo only supports down to 2T (new DFI NF4 can do 1T although not offically supported by AMD)

Or it could be the 1T concerning the commands per clock CPC (the reason amds beat faster intels) AMD by default are 1T CPC, and some peeps use modded bioses with 2T CPC to try get better FSB than their current overclock but lose performance over 1T so need get a good 15mhz fsb increase to come even.

EDIT

""Command Per Clock:

Back in the days of the KT266A chipset, I remember being able to go through the usual memory timing adjustments, along with one extra option--command timing. The choices were either 1T or 2T. As chipsets developed, I noticed that this option gradually disappeared. To my surprise, this latency still exists. It's in that nForce2 motherboard you have right now.

This command timing has a new name, labeled as Command Per Clock (CPC). Basically, with it ON, it'll default to 1T. With CPC OFF, the latency is set to 2T. Many AMD users have debated over the issue of whether to keep it ON or OFF. Naturally, enthusiasts would want it set to ON. Systems benefit more from having lower timings. However, the downside to keeping CPC on at is that it hinders overclocking, especially with 512MB double sided memory modules. Why, you ask? The Northbridge controller has issues with reading the memory ranks correctly.

When you have 2x256MB modules, the system will read each as 2 ranks. With 2 sticks in the DIMM slots, it will be read as 4 ranks. When you have 2x512MB modules, the system will read each as 4 ranks (due to the double sided memory). With 2 sticks installed, it will be read as 8 ranks. This is where the Northbridge errors. In order to still function correctly with 2x512MB modules, CPC has to be turned off so the command latency is 2T.""

I have never had a mobo where you can turn it on or off, you need flash bios with normal to turn on if off or modded bios to turn off if on and all are on by default in AMD mobos.

 

[Gamingphreek]

The 2T and 1T are command rate, not CAS (Column Address Strobe) latency.

I thought it works as i said, but i could be wrong.

Almost all BIOS' allow you to select between 1T and 2T latencies. However in the AXP days this was referred to as CPC and in order to disable it you had to use a modded BIOS which disabled it. You want it back on you had to flash back to the other BIOS.

-Kevin

 

[Ackmed]

Thats the exact reason I upgraded. I had a A8N-SLI, with 2x512. I wanted 2gig for BF2. So I got some Mushkin Redline PC4000, but I needed a new mobo to run it properly, as the A8N doesnt have enough volts. So I got a new mobo, and then a new CPU.. what a vicious cycle. It just sucks I cant run 1T with 4x512.

 

[Concillian]

Originally posted by: Emultra
Okay, so the 2T thing is acceptable, but what about the lowering from DDR400 to DDR333? Is that the bandwidth? Does it have a greater impact?

Some impact but you probably will not notice the performance hit compared to the performance advantage of having 2GB. The thing about memory speeds is that they get blown a little out of proportion, hyped up if you will. Realistically there are few real world apps that will really give a very noticeable difference between 333MHz at 2T command rate vs. 400 MHz 1T command rate. I cannot tell any difference using apps I use everyday, though benchmark programs make the difference look enormous and totally unacceptable.

I did some tests with BFV at a video card limited resolution (the res I actually played at) with different memory speeds:

RAM speed / Multiplier / CPU speed / AVG FPS / MIN FPS

Dual Channel:
200 / 6 / 1200 / 61.3 / 38
150 / 8 / 1200 / 60.4 / 36
100 / 12 / 1200 / 57.8 / 36

Single Channel:
200 / 6 / 1200 / 61.4 / 39
100 / 12 / 1200 / 56.4 / 35

for reference, full speed CPU was:
200 / 11 / 2200 / 64.5 / 38

This was an AXP, I used 1200 MHz because it was something where CPU speed could be kept constant and in 1:1 ratio and I could benchmark DDR200 (PC1600) up to DDR400 (PC3200)

You can see that there was not a huge difference. A difference, yes, but nothing killer. If you're needing more than 1GB, the performance hit from running DDR333 vs. DDR400 is going to be less significant than the performance advantage of 2GB over 1GB.

Obviously those are BFV numbers and not directly transferable to BF2, but it gives some idea of what kind of performance differences we're talking about.

 

[Emultra]

humey: my A8N-SLI Deluxe is an nForce4 board, not nForce2.

I'd rather not upgrade my mobo as I just recently did that. I can tolerate upgrading my CPU, though, and if I buy the extra 1GB now and stick with the DDR333 and 2T, I will get the DDR400 later when I get a new CPU.

Though, in my clone thread (this one but in another forum section) a guy said he got 4x512, but switched to 2x1024 because the 2T was "intolerable"...

 

[MTDEW]

if you upgrade to 4 sticks x 512, you will still have dual channel but the memory will run at ddr333

Theres the part i dont get at all.

If you stick in 4 sticks x 512 then manually set the ram to 200mhz in the bios.

When you boot the post screen says
DDR 333 Dual Channel , 128bit Memory Clock is : 200MHz

I dont get it, 200mhz is DDR333 not DDR400?

 

[imported_humey]

Emultra, YES i know u got NF4 but i have NF2, wtf would you want ddr 333 for the NF4 runs only amd 64s which all are 200/400fsb, and most hit at least 300/600fsb if you get good overclockers ram, a fsb of 166/333 would be a waste on that mobo.

 

[Concillian]

Originally posted by: humey
Emultra, YES i know u got NF4 but i have NF2, wtf would you want ddr 333 for the NF4 runs only amd 64s which all are 200/400fsb, and most hit at least 300/600fsb if you get good overclockers ram, a fsb of 166/333 would be a waste on that mobo.

Methinks you do not understand the issue.

A64 Winchester cores will not support 4 sticks of dual sided 512MB RAM at 200 MHz. If you put the RAM in the motherboard, it will automatically clock it down to 166MHz by using a different RAM divider.

This has nothing to do with the motherboard, but the memory controller on the A64 that AMD continues to refine in each new core.

If you try to run such memory at high speed you will get the same issue that you would if you were overclocking the RAM too high, because essentially you are overclocking the RAM controller beyond it's capability if you use 4x512MB at 200 MHz.

He's not asking because he WANTS to run PC2700, he's asking because that's what will happen when he installes the second pair of 512MB sticks.

 

[imported_humey]

Anyhow who cares this is the f00king wrong section. LOL 😛

I only answered at 1st as i thopugh he was going to ask what GPIU to match with his hardware. 😕

Some MOD should move this to correct thread, and if i need know anything about amd64's i have other mods in my irc channel that i would turn to before anyone else online as they have owned all version of mobos and cpus and 1 of them worked for AMD.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Thats the exact reason I upgraded. I had a A8N-SLI, with 2x512. I wanted 2gig for BF2. So I got some Mushkin Redline PC4000, but I needed a new mobo to run it properly, as the A8N doesnt have enough volts. So I got a new mobo, and then a new CPU.. what a vicious cycle. It just sucks I cant run 1T with 4x512.

What do you mean your motherboard doesn't have enough volts?? You mean it doesn't have a wide range of voltages for overclocking.

Anyhow who cares this is the f00king wrong section. LOL

Well, it seems someone is afraid to admit that they were wrong.

We dont need a professional to tell us what is going on. Myself and a few others have gone into more depth than was necessary to explain this issue.

Though, in my clone thread (this one but in another forum section) a guy said he got 4x512, but switched to 2x1024 because the 2T was "intolerable"...

Tell the guy he has no clue what he is talking about.

-Kevin

 

[Emultra]

I think I'll order another Corsair ValueSelect 2x512 then ($130 maybe), along with Battlefield 2 and a pre-ordered Zalman AJ-something passive cooler to replace the Deluxe chipset fan. 🙂

 

[imported_humey]

Sh1t i was drunk last night when i tried to answer this, i made few boobs and typos.

Im told the NF4 should run 4 sticks of ram no probs obv make all the same, and put this in correct section next time.

And yes i was talking about 1T and 2T in correct way but then due to the drinkl got mixes up with ram timmins of 1 and 2 CL being CAS. lol

I know the NF2 mobos inside out and every mod to them, but i dont want a NF4 yet so i only know what my buddies on irc tell me, but they are experts and not one is under 45years old, seem to have unlimited AXX to new parts and very understanding wifes.

 

[Emultra]

I guess I could also go the 2x1024MB route. It's more expensive (especially here), but more future proof since I'll be able to upgrade further later on, if I want to.

I don't know.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Thats the exact reason I upgraded. I had a A8N-SLI, with 2x512. I wanted 2gig for BF2. So I got some Mushkin Redline PC4000, but I needed a new mobo to run it properly, as the A8N doesnt have enough volts. So I got a new mobo, and then a new CPU.. what a vicious cycle. It just sucks I cant run 1T with 4x512.

What do you mean your motherboard doesn't have enough volts?? You mean it doesn't have a wide range of voltages for overclocking.

No I dont mean that. I mean it doesnt support a high enough voltage for my ram. It only went up to 3.0v, I need at least 3.3v.

 

[Gamingphreek]

That is OCed RAM. IIRC JEDEC spec is 2.5V. That RAM is already OCed because it is above JEDEC spec.

You could still run it, but it might not be stable at its stock speed, or you might not be able to OC it.

-Kevin

 

[Ackmed]

I know about standards. The FACT is, it will NOT run without the volts I need, at the specs its rated for, which is Cas2 2-2-5, even at 3200 speeds. Which is why I sold my A8N, and got the DFI.