A Wave Of Desalination Proposals

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
UPDATE: 9/5
Company to let Water Authority visit desalination site
http://www.nctimes.com/article...ies/21_31_519_1_04.txt

UPDATE: 7/28

Board to hear competing desalination plans
http://www.montereyherald.com/...ereyherald/9261747.htm


Given all of the fresh water problems in the southwest (Lake Mead having dropped 75', Colorado River being siphoned off, etc.) I'm surprised desalination plants haven't gotten more support.

Besides, wouldn't it help to keep the ocean levels down once the polar caps all melt?? ;)


http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=10370

A few hundred yards from the Pacific Ocean, at the end of a labyrinth of blue pipes and filters, Peter MacLaggan fills a plastic cup with water. This, he hopes, is his company's future.

It's purified seawater, stripped of its salts and ready for the tap. MacLaggan's firm, Poseidon Resources, is one of a handful of private companies that want to sell Californians tens of millions of gallons a day of desalinated water just like it.

Their sea-to-tap schemes reflect the state's renewed interest in ocean desalination, which planners say could provide more than 1.5 million Californians with drinking water by 2030.

Though there remain financial and environmental obstacles to desalination, more than 20 desalting proposals are now under consideration on the California coast. Most are from public agencies, including the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, the city of Santa Cruz and the Municipal Water District of Orange County.

But the most ambitious and potentially controversial are from the private sector, which, with the help of public subsidies, wants to play a major role in developing a new water supply for the state a responsibility borne largely by the government for the past century.

Poseidon, a small, privately held company based in Connecticut, proposes to build the biggest ocean desalination plants in the Western Hemisphere on the Southern California coast, one in Huntington Beach and one in Carlsbad. Each would be capable of producing 50 million gallons of drinking water a day.

To the north, California-American Water Co., a private utility owned by a German conglomerate, is proposing a 9-million-gallon desalination facility at Moss Landing on Monterey Bay, while a consortium of private engineering companies is floating plans for a 5-million-gallon desalination plant on the shores of Morro Bay.

The private plans have stirred concerns among some public officials and advocacy groups, who worry that a public resource, seawater, will be exploited for private profit and sold to the highest bidder. They further warn that multinational companies could try to use international trade agreements to get around local and state environmental regulation.

Proponents say the public's interests would be protected by long-term contracts with private water companies. They note that private water utilities have operated in California since its infancy and today provide about a fifth of the state's drinking water. And they argue that in an era of government budget cuts and monster deficits, it makes sense for private investors to shoulder the financial risks of getting new technology up and running.

"We need to get creative," said MacLaggan, a senior vice president of Poseidon who joined the company three years ago and previously worked in water supply planning for the San Diego County Water Authority. "I don't think you can say [that] because it's private, it's bad. If we're meeting [quality and quantity] specifications for the life of a contract, it doesn't matter how you get the water there."

Behind MacLaggan hummed the small reverse osmosis demonstration project Poseidon has run in Carlsbad for the last year next to the Encina power station.

A mini-version of what Poseidon proposes to do, the operation takes seawater from the power plant's cooling stream and pumps it under high pressure through a series of sand filters and synthetic membranes laced with billions of holes a fraction of the width of a human hair. The holes are big enough for a water molecule to slip through, but not salts or contaminants. The whole process takes about 20 minutes. Then carbon dioxide and minute amounts of lime are added to counter the water's corrosiveness.

MacLaggan gives a visitor the plastic cup. The contents are clear and flavorless, save for a mild mineral aftertaste.

Advances in desalting technology, pressure on Southern California to reduce its take of Colorado River water and the demands of an ever expanding population have turned the state's gaze to the sea.

"This is a potentially limitless supply of water," observed Charles Keene, executive officer of the state Water Desalination Task Force, which concluded last year that desalination could play a meaningful, if limited, role in meeting California's water needs. The task force acknowledged that private desalination operations raised "unique issues," but did not discount private involvement.

"You may be able to say that, philosophically, [seawater] is a public resource and should not be exploited for profit," Keene said. "But if you want to look at it pragmatically, at water shortages in the future, and say, 'I don't have the financing to bring in additional supplies,' you may wish to look at partnering with private agencies that could amass financing."

Despite a drop in desalination costs over the last decade, desalinated seawater remains at least twice as expensive as conventional water supplies in Southern California.

To develop the market, the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California, the region's largest water supplier, plans to offer subsidies to member agencies. The public water districts could use the money to offset the costs of producing desalinated water themselves or to buy water from a private producer.

A national alliance of water agencies, which includes the MWD and the parent company of California-American, is also lobbying for congressional authorization of hundreds of millions of dollars in federal energy grants to offset production costs.

Poseidon is counting on the MWD subsidies to make its water more attractive to public clients. It also needs approval from local authorities and the state Coastal Commission, neither of which is proving an easy sell.

In January, the San Diego County Water Authority broke off talks with Poseidon over the Carlsbad proposal, saying it objected to a noncompetitive clause that would have barred the authority from developing a desalination plant with any other firm at the Encina site.

And in December, the Huntington Beach City Council voted down the company's proposal to build a $240-million desalination plant next to the AES power station there. The council maintained that Poseidon had not adequately addressed the possible environmental impacts of a coastal desalting operation.

Environmentalists say the plants will promote population growth by creating another water source, threaten marine life with high-salinity discharges and consume large amounts of energy. Poseidon says it can deal with the environmental issues and will keep pushing both projects. But it still has to overcome the skepticism of the Coastal Commission.

In a draft report last year, the commission staff outlined a potential clash between the private sale of purified seawater and the state's Coastal Act, which considers ocean water a public resource to be protected. The document also pointed to several publicized cases in which multinational companies pursuing projects in the U.S. or elsewhere had filed claims under international trade treaties challenging government decisions they said hurt their business.

"Right now we're just asking questions. Right now we don't have the answers," said Tom Luster, an environmental scientist and lead staffer on the report.

Poseidon, formed in 1994 by a group of investors with backgrounds in energy and water development, could contract with international companies to help develop its California projects.

But MacLaggan scoffed at the trade arguments. "It's just ludicrous that we'll be able to say we're a multinational corporation and don't have to comply with the laws of the United States," he said.

The Coastal Commission concerns echo a worldwide debate over the privatization of public services, particularly water utilities.

"When private corporations get in the business, it's in their best interest to sell more [water] and to then even create the problem of demand that needs the technological answer," maintained Maude Barlow of the Council of Canadians, an public interest group that campaigns against privatization. "They're only in it to make money."

But water is already a commodity, argued Adrian Moore, vice president of the Reason Foundation, a think tank in Los Angeles.

"It is a thing we buy now. It's not something we're given for free. We have just as much of a right to food, and we don't believe government should be in the food business," Moore said.

But what would protect the economic interest of the public agencies buying Poseidon water?

"If Poseidon is going to venture their capital and we agree to buy water at a certain rate and define what the rules of the game are, I don't see the risk," said John Schatz, general manager of the Santa Margarita Water District. The agency has a tentative agreement to buy half the output of the Huntington Beach plant.

Still, other officials say they sense public unease with private water development.

"I think the public is very uncomfortable with the privatization of something as essential as water, especially after the energy crisis and [how] we saw the manipulation of energy," said Huntington Beach Councilwoman Debbie Cook, who voted against the Poseidon project and was a member of the state Water Desalination Task Force.

In Florida, where Poseidon developed a 25-million-gallon-a-day desalination facility for the Tampa Bay Water Authority, the public agency bought out the company's interest after two bankruptcy filings one by Poseidon's original design and construction partner and the second by the parent of the firm that Poseidon then lined up to construct the plant.

"On the front end [Poseidon] brought business acumen and permitting expertise that helped make it possible," said Jerry Maxwell, the Tampa water agency's general manager. "I'm grateful for that contribution. I think at the end we found [that] some things they attempted to do, we were in a better position to do."

The largest seawater desalination facility built to date in the U.S., the Tampa plant began producing water a year ago but has experienced ongoing start-up problems with clogged filters.

Within the water industry, it was seen as a groundbreaking development that would throw open the U.S. market for private desalination efforts.

"The private sector thought they were going to open the market in five years," said Virginia Grebbien, general manager of the Orange County Water District and a former Poseidon executive. "I think it's a 30-year process. I think the public is more willing to trust the public sector to be good stewards."
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
hmmm


http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/8755248.htm

Posted on Tue, May. 25, 2004


SANTA CRUZ, Calif. (AP) - The City Council is considering a $100 million program to expand and update the water system, including a desalting plant, a proposal that would boost monthly residential water bills an average $5 a month starting in June.

Rates would more than double in five years if the plan is approved.

The council's advisory Water Commission urges passage of the package, which includes a $42 million desalination plant to add millions of gallons to the city's supply during droughts.

But Water Department director Bill Kocher said none of the proposals would increase average daily water supplies in "wet years." Instead, he said, the desalination plant, would shore up supplies during drought years and fixing leaking pipes and mains would put an end to system problems.

"If we don't do these things, then even in nondrought years we will be rationing," Kocher said.

The City Council will consider the proposal and rate increases on June 8.

The average monthly residential water bill is $21, and that could increase to $26 in June. The average would rise annually to an estimated $47 monthly by 2009. The water district has 90,000 customers in the city and nearby unincorporated areas.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
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I stopped reading when it said people were concerned about companies exploitating a public resource, seawater. The anti-corporate, pro big government views in this country are just bloody insane.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
Originally posted by: conjur
Yeah...like the Colorado River and Lake Mead are not public resources???

Maybe you need to study geography a little more but lake mead and the colorado river are fresh water resources and NOT SEAWATER. If you think seawater is such a vast resource go drink some!
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,197
4
76
Originally posted by: conjur
Given all of the fresh water problems in the southwest (Lake Mead having dropped 75', Colorado River being siphoned off, etc.) I'm surprised desalination plants haven't gotten more support.

Besides, wouldn't it help to keep the ocean levels down once the polar caps all melt?? ;)

There are environmental problems with it is why. The salt doesn't just disappear and you can't just dump it back into the ocean.
 

gsaldivar

Diamond Member
Apr 30, 2001
8,691
1
81
Desalination is nothing new. Despite millions of public dollars of research and development, it's never been shown to be a cost-effective source of fresh water.

Private corporations are willing to have a go at it... why shouldn't we let them? :thumbsup::D
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: Strk
Originally posted by: conjur
Given all of the fresh water problems in the southwest (Lake Mead having dropped 75', Colorado River being siphoned off, etc.) I'm surprised desalination plants haven't gotten more support.

Besides, wouldn't it help to keep the ocean levels down once the polar caps all melt?? ;)

There are environmental problems with it is why. The salt doesn't just disappear and you can't just dump it back into the ocean.

Why not? Put it on a supertanker and spread it over 10,000 miles.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,784
6,343
126
Desalination is the future. Though I wonder why no one hasn't developed a near energy free system?(perhaps someone has, I dunno) In such a system a clear dome would float on sea water using trapped solar energy to evaporate the water then condensing it(perhaps by pumping cooler sea water through the dome) back into salt-free fresh water. Perhaps this type of system can't produce the quantity that a filtration system can(most likely can't).

A great thing with desalinization is that I can see a future where Sea Water is pumped deep into the Prairie regions where it could be used(after desalinization) as irrigation during dry years preventing crop failures.

To cut costs, waste energy(as mentioned in article) could help in the process. Many Industries exhaust steam and hot gases, garbage dumps produce large amounts of Methane(some is used to heat Green Houses up here in BC, Canada), and even the Sour Gas that is simply burnt off from working Oil Wells could provide lots of near Free energy.

The whole Public vs Private issue is certainly important, but as long as Governments have the gonads to step in and smack a few heads around when necessary things should be ok.
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
Originally posted by: Strk
Originally posted by: conjur
Given all of the fresh water problems in the southwest (Lake Mead having dropped 75', Colorado River being siphoned off, etc.) I'm surprised desalination plants haven't gotten more support.

Besides, wouldn't it help to keep the ocean levels down once the polar caps all melt?? ;)

There are environmental problems with it is why. The salt doesn't just disappear and you can't just dump it back into the ocean.

Yea salt just doesn't disappear, people put it on their food. The amount of salt from a 50mgd facility produced from sea water wouldnt' even come close to equaling the amount of salt produced from the Great Salt Lake in utah and currently in your kitchen cabinet labeled Morton Salt.
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
desalinated seawater remains at least twice as expensive as conventional water supplies in Southern California
Nobody will voluntarily pay twice as much for their water. The only way desalinated seawater will become "successful" in the present market is with a 100% goverment subsidy...a complete boondoggle.

boondoggle: An unnecessary or wasteful project or activity

this is an effort by private business to suck taxpayer dollars through a goverment subsidy. usually the way this works, is somebody promises to pay off a politician (campaign contributions, a seat on the board after they retire from goverment, you know the drill), in exchange for getting legislation passed with "mandates" that desalination be "explored" or desalinated water become a "percentage" of the water budget.

taxpayers pay goverment....goverment pays for boondoggle...boondoggle diverts some cash back to politician....

it helps if the boondoogle sounds "enviromentally friendly" if your after liberal politicians for support...
it helps if the boondoogle sounds "strong on defense" if your after a conservative politician for support.

it seems to me, that the market place will take care of all of this without the meddling of politicians.
when conventional water supplies become pricier, people will conserve water, and alternative sources of water will be developed by the market place, at the right time, at the right price. Until then, just cut down on watering your lawn, and filling your swimming pool. "water intensive" industries are already leaving that area of the country anyhow!
 

gsaldivar

Diamond Member
Apr 30, 2001
8,691
1
81
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
"...the market place will take care of all of this without the meddling of politicians.
when conventional water supplies become pricier, people will conserve water, and alternative sources of water will be developed by the market place, at the right time, at the right price. Until then, just cut down on watering your lawn, and filling your swimming pool. "water intensive" industries are already leaving that area of the country anyhow!"

Well said!

:beer::D
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Watering lawns and filling swimming pools are not the key problems behind the drying of Lake Mead and the siphoning of water off of the Colorado River.

Economies of scale and competition will lower the cost of desalinated water even further.

Hybrids were quite expensive when they first came out.
 

heartsurgeon

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2001
4,260
0
0
Watering lawns and filling swimming pools are not the key problems behind the drying of Lake Mead and the siphoning of water off of the Colorado River
Are you saying that conservation is not a "key" to protecting limiting water resources? Swimming pools and lawn water consume enormous amounts of water, while being entirely discretionary sources of water utilization. Gee, I'm for conservation. I think it is key to many problems..not to mention it lowers prices through market forces (lower demand). Subsidizing the price of any service or good, increases it's usage, the exact opposite of what is needed in the south-western U.S.

besides...desalination uses power....oops..so you subsidize the production of desalinated water (wasting taxpayer dollars), that keeps water artificially "low", which does nothing to decrease consumption, meanwhile, the desalination plants are consuming gobs of power...which will push the cost of energy up.....

meanwhile, the money that was spent of desalination plants, isn't available to spend on something else..like health care, or education, or anything else.

i suppose the answer is to just raise taxes more...oh, i get it!

you drive the companies and people out of California with increased taxes....and water consumption drops!!!

i was wrong!! this is a GREAT idea!!!
 

zephyrprime

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2001
7,512
2
81
There's plenty of water in the united states. Just don't live in the southwest because that's about the only place that lacks water.
 

Zephyr106

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
1,309
0
0
Originally posted by: zephyrprime
There's plenty of water in the united states. Just don't live in the southwest because that's about the only place that lacks water.

And coupled with melting polar and Greenland ice caps, and that new documentary showing tidal waves engulfing cities, we should be just fine with finding water.

Zephyr
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: zephyrprime
There's plenty of water in the united states. Just don't live in the southwest because that's about the only place that lacks water.

Not true, we are sucking down the Lakes here in the Southeast too.

In fact to try and not drain it down so bad they are now dumping the sewage (all 85 millions gallons a day) right back into the lake (Lake Lanier) that we get our drinking water, isn't that special, drinking everyone's sh1t & piss.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: heartsurgeon
Watering lawns and filling swimming pools are not the key problems behind the drying of Lake Mead and the siphoning of water off of the Colorado River
Are you saying that conservation is not a "key" to protecting limiting water resources? Swimming pools and lawn water consume enormous amounts of water, while being entirely discretionary sources of water utilization. Gee, I'm for conservation. I think it is key to many problems..not to mention it lowers prices through market forces (lower demand). Subsidizing the price of any service or good, increases it's usage, the exact opposite of what is needed in the south-western U.S.

besides...desalination uses power....oops..so you subsidize the production of desalinated water (wasting taxpayer dollars), that keeps water artificially "low", which does nothing to decrease consumption, meanwhile, the desalination plants are consuming gobs of power...which will push the cost of energy up.....

meanwhile, the money that was spent of desalination plants, isn't available to spend on something else..like health care, or education, or anything else.

i suppose the answer is to just raise taxes more...oh, i get it!

you drive the companies and people out of California with increased taxes....and water consumption drops!!!

i was wrong!! this is a GREAT idea!!!

I'm saying the amount of water used to fill swimming pools and water lawns doesn't compare to that for daily consumption as drinking water, toilets, for manufacturing, offices, etc. There are already rules in place in many cities for restrictions on lawn watering and car washing, etc. Some places are banning lawns in favor of native vegetation. Hotels/Casinos in Vegas are pulling up huge amounts of sod and replacing it with native landscaping.
 

Genesys

Golden Member
Nov 10, 2003
1,536
0
0
Originally posted by: YellowRose
Well here in El Paso Texas we are building the worlds largest inland desalination plant.

really? i live in texas and i havent heard anything about such a thing. i figure that since texans are so fricken proud of their state, this would be big news!
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: zephyrprime
There's plenty of water in the united states. Just don't live in the southwest because that's about the only place that lacks water.

Not true, we are sucking down the Lakes here in the Southeast too.

In fact to try and not drain it down so bad they are now dumping the sewage (all 85 millions gallons a day) right back into the lake (Lake Lanier) that we get our drinking water, isn't that special, drinking everyone's sh1t & piss.

NO, you mean ATLANTA is sucking down all the water. We've sued Georgia so many times it isn't even funny anymore. You all keep stealing water.