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A very useful background on Afghanistan

There's no earth-shattering 'why we should not follow Obama's policy in expanding the war in Afghanistan' info in this article, though the author clearly believes we should not. But there is some history that's very useful in helping people understand how manipulated and falsified the 'popular history' can be, that shows them some new views.

I think it's a very useful article just for that - for helping people to learn to question that maybe policies like knee-jerk opposition to leftist government isn't always right. There are many other examples - from our opposing democracy or freedom in places from Iran to Chile to Nicaragua to Venezuela to Vietnam and more - but this is one example.

I previously posted a anrticle by the same author on the same general topic, that seemed well received; this one seems even better to me.

The author has a tendency, it seems to me, to partially minimize the flaws on the left, but his information is so useful, it's very worthwhile anyway.

LinkHopefully people will find it useful.

 
I would love to see his sources for this article. I have studied Afghanistan extensively as the sole object of a few research essays over the last 3 years and have always seen, represented, and come to the conclusion because of that research that the CIA did not become involved in Afghanistan until the Soviets did. (As a way to help attack the Soviet Union, in fact every 1 million poured into Afghanistan destroyed 10 million worth of Soviet Machinery.) The Soviets in turn invaded due to attacks coming from Afghanistan.

I mean yeah, it was a clusterfuck all around on both sides, but out of the hundreds of research items I've studied this is the first time I've ever seen anyone try and state CIA involvement pre-Soviet invasion. There was just nothing really there and the Domino theory didn't apply.

He also ignores the roles Pakistan played in this. It sounds a lot more like someone with a bunch of "ideas" of what happened rather than any concrete, documented facts of what happened.


Skimming his biography explains a little better. He is definably an cynic towards American Culture, again I would love to see his sources for this since it is the first time I've ever seen this notion applied while ignoring the massive role the ISI and Pakistan played. (Besides a token "Pakistan helped set up Taliban"


If people want an example of why knee jerk reactions are not the best answer look at the Truman Plan, The Marshall Plan and the Establishment of Nato. All knee jerk reactions that solidified the Cold War. Afghanistan is an example of a global clusterfuck involving the U.S, USSR and Pakistan as the key players. The US was not in there before the Soviets though. As far as anyone can tell Afghanistan was not on any agencies list of operations anywhere. Even in as simple as an observation and research capacity until the Soviets came in.
 
Please stop saying as if North Vietnam had anything to do with democracy and freedom. Since my family is from South Vietnam, I have to say the North Vietnamese were the aggressor, they deserved to die invading South Vietnam. If they didn't die, they would had killed many South Vietnamese, which actually did happen.
 
Originally posted by: Pocatello
Please stop saying as if North Vietnam had anything to do with democracy and freedom. Since my family is from South Vietnam, I have to say the North Vietnamese were the aggressor, they deserved to die invading South Vietnam. If they didn't die, they would had killed many South Vietnamese, which actually did happen.

Sorry, but I will say that the roots of North Vietnam lay in freedom from the people being colonized.

Ho Chi Minh had pursued that end since he wrote to President Wilson around 1920, and after the Japanese colonizers, who had replaced the French colonizers, were thrown out by the allies in WWII, he tried to ask the US to help them not get re-colonized by the French; the US responded by supporting its ally France to re-colonize them and even paid up to 90% of the French war costs. The US split the nation in half and agreed to have elections to re-unify it, and then blocked the elecitons because Ho Chi Minh would win.

The US was the support that kept Diem in power, who had some brutal policies.

North Vietnam did monstrous things in its war, but it can hardly be said that Vietnam's cause for freedom from colonization was not just and was not about freedom.

Your parents being from South Vietnam can both inform and bias their views. It's a little like asking a Southerner in the US to describe the Civil War after it ended.

Some peasants faced two of the world's most powerful militaries (France and US) in its fight for independance. Yes, they did terrible things to win. They shouldn't have had to.

I'm not saying by any means the regime that ended up in place by the end of the war was any example of something good - but it could have been a lot better had it been the regime that asked for US help after WWII, when Ho Chi Minh created a declaration of independance modelled on the US, when the US could have sided on the side of freedom.
 
Originally posted by: RichardE
I would love to see his sources for this article. I have studied Afghanistan extensively as the sole object of a few research essays over the last 3 years and have always seen, represented, and come to the conclusion because of that research that the CIA did not become involved in Afghanistan until the Soviets did. (As a way to help attack the Soviet Union, in fact every 1 million poured into Afghanistan destroyed 10 million worth of Soviet Machinery.) The Soviets in turn invaded due to attacks coming from Afghanistan.

I mean yeah, it was a clusterfuck all around on both sides, but out of the hundreds of research items I've studied this is the first time I've ever seen anyone try and state CIA involvement pre-Soviet invasion. There was just nothing really there and the Domino theory didn't apply.

He also ignores the roles Pakistan played in this. It sounds a lot more like someone with a bunch of "ideas" of what happened rather than any concrete, documented facts of what happened.


Skimming his biography explains a little better. He is definably an cynic towards American Culture, again I would love to see his sources for this since it is the first time I've ever seen this notion applied while ignoring the massive role the ISI and Pakistan played. (Besides a token "Pakistan helped set up Taliban"


If people want an example of why knee jerk reactions are not the best answer look at the Truman Plan, The Marshall Plan and the Establishment of Nato. All knee jerk reactions that solidified the Cold War. Afghanistan is an example of a global clusterfuck involving the U.S, USSR and Pakistan as the key players. The US was not in there before the Soviets though. As far as anyone can tell Afghanistan was not on any agencies list of operations anywhere. Even in as simple as an observation and research capacity until the Soviets came in.

Fair enough. I've had the same desire with him at times. As I said, I find his info to have the useful far outweigh the questionable or the things I don't agree with.

I'm not that familiar with your particular question, but I have seen Carter's National Security Advisor claim that they took measures to draw the USSR into Afghanistan, implying involvement, which would likely be CIA involvement, before the USSR accepted the request to come help. How ironic it is that the government of Afghanistan battling the forces of religious fanatics got no help from the US, and had to turn to the USSR.

We don't seem to learn the lessons too well. (For examples, immediately following that we got close to Saddam with his terrible atrocities because he was Iran's enemy).

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to play strange bedfellows for empire.

Edit: you call him a 'cynic about American culture', but I'd say if so, he also deserves the description of astute observer of American culture with books like 'Superpatriot'.

In it, he goes through some of the same questions I've looked at on what 'real' patriotism means, and he's similarly found a cultural existence of 'faux patriotism'.

I've diacussed similar issues here such as why the 'my country right or wrong' is wrong and harmful to the country - then again, my sig recently had Robert Kennedy:

The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country.
- Robert Kennedy
 
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: RichardE
I would love to see his sources for this article. I have studied Afghanistan extensively as the sole object of a few research essays over the last 3 years and have always seen, represented, and come to the conclusion because of that research that the CIA did not become involved in Afghanistan until the Soviets did. (As a way to help attack the Soviet Union, in fact every 1 million poured into Afghanistan destroyed 10 million worth of Soviet Machinery.) The Soviets in turn invaded due to attacks coming from Afghanistan.

I mean yeah, it was a clusterfuck all around on both sides, but out of the hundreds of research items I've studied this is the first time I've ever seen anyone try and state CIA involvement pre-Soviet invasion. There was just nothing really there and the Domino theory didn't apply.

He also ignores the roles Pakistan played in this. It sounds a lot more like someone with a bunch of "ideas" of what happened rather than any concrete, documented facts of what happened.


Skimming his biography explains a little better. He is definably an cynic towards American Culture, again I would love to see his sources for this since it is the first time I've ever seen this notion applied while ignoring the massive role the ISI and Pakistan played. (Besides a token "Pakistan helped set up Taliban"


If people want an example of why knee jerk reactions are not the best answer look at the Truman Plan, The Marshall Plan and the Establishment of Nato. All knee jerk reactions that solidified the Cold War. Afghanistan is an example of a global clusterfuck involving the U.S, USSR and Pakistan as the key players. The US was not in there before the Soviets though. As far as anyone can tell Afghanistan was not on any agencies list of operations anywhere. Even in as simple as an observation and research capacity until the Soviets came in.

Fair enough. I've had the same desire with him at times. As I said, I find his info to have the useful far outweigh the questionable or the things I don't agree with.

I'm not that familiar with your particular question, but I have seen Carter's National Security Advisor claim that they took measures to draw the USSR into Afghanistan, implying involvement, which would likely be CIA involvement, before the USSR accepted the request to come help. How ironic it is that the government of Afghanistan battling the forces of religious fanatics got no help from the US, and had to turn to the USSR.

We don't seem to learn the lessons too well. (For examples, immediately following that we got close to Saddam with his terrible atrocities because he was Iran's enemy).

Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to play strange bedfellows for empire.

Edit: you call him a 'cynic about American culture', but I'd say if so, he also deserves the description of astute observer of American culture with books like 'Superpatriot'.

In it, he goes through some of the same questions I've looked at on what 'real' patriotism means, and he's similarly found a cultural existence of 'faux patriotism'.

I've diacussed similar issues here such as why the 'my country right or wrong' is wrong and harmful to the country - then again, my sig recently had Robert Kennedy:

The sharpest criticism often goes hand in hand with the deepest idealism and love of country.
- Robert Kennedy

Yeah, I agree with you in regards to how flimsy our ideals are. We almost went to WW3 over Iran right after WW2 (Soviet tanks were in Iran, and the US stated at the time that if the Soviets stayed that the first shots of WW3 would be fired.) But, than again World super powers have been meddling in the Balkans, Middle East and Africa for a good thousand plus years at least. I would have to read more of him as I am sure you have to really give a valid opinion on him, as such my knowledge of him is this article and his wiki biographies. Not even sure why I posted besides as someone who has studied the Afghanistain issue in depth his article reaked of conspiracy bs for the most part when ignoring major major factors of what has occurred in Afghanistan.

Not sure about the Carter thing being real, since Carter was very against any US involvement in Afghanistan and fought the CIA which wanted to go in there after the Soviets. It took concessions from Pakistan to actually get the Administration to want to go into Afghanistan, the administration was the biggest roadblock keeping the CIA from going into Afghanistan.

That is not to say the complete disregard for the culture of the Afghanistan people by the CIA was despicable, and there turning what the Soviets were doing (a secularizing of a future Islamic state) into a simple "fuck the Afghanistan were going after the Soviets" was really what destroyed about hope of secularization. Not to mention the complete abandonment of the secular warlords in the power vacuum that followed withdrawal when the Taliban came rolling in after the Soviets left. ( Not until Clinton came to power was Afghanistan back on the operative directive in any capacity at all which is a whole other issue of clusterfuckness with how Clinton dealt with it)

It was a major major clusterfuck, but this persons view of it is incorrect.
 
I fail to see the logic in RichardE's statement that " It was a major major clusterfuck, but this persons view of it is incorrect."

On what grounds is he incorrect? Micheal Parenti version strikes me as historically accurate even though its not the politically correct version. What use is there in someone claiming to be a scholar of the politically correct version if they ignore alternate explanations, and then dismiss them out of hand.

As much as we rail against both the Taliban, terrorists, and the general mess the entire region is now in, a trip to the nearest mirror will show us who created most of the problems in the first place.

As our own CIA cheerfully trained terrorists to oust the Soviet Union from Afghanistan in the 1980's, those same tactics are now being effectively used against the USA all over the world.

As for the goals Parenti cites, namely oil and fossil fuels, and the pipeline routes used to transport them, after a 30 plus year CIA effort to shape them to US interests, that is an unreached goal now even more distant than when we started.

What will never be known, is what would have happened if we had not meddled in the affairs of others? But its quite apparent that we can cause much misery and political instability for a remarkably low investment of seed money and effort. But then, when our initial intent is not realized, its costs trillions of dollar to even partly mitigate those effects.

And the other question becomes, how many clusterfucks will it take for us to learn that the enemy of our enemy is not necessarily going to be a long term friend?
 
Originally posted by: RichardE
I would love to see his sources for this article. I have studied Afghanistan extensively as the sole object of a few research essays over the last 3 years and have always seen, represented, and come to the conclusion because of that research that the CIA did not become involved in Afghanistan until the Soviets did. (As a way to help attack the Soviet Union, in fact every 1 million poured into Afghanistan destroyed 10 million worth of Soviet Machinery.) The Soviets in turn invaded due to attacks coming from Afghanistan.

I mean yeah, it was a clusterfuck all around on both sides, but out of the hundreds of research items I've studied this is the first time I've ever seen anyone try and state CIA involvement pre-Soviet invasion. There was just nothing really there and the Domino theory didn't apply.

He also ignores the roles Pakistan played in this. It sounds a lot more like someone with a bunch of "ideas" of what happened rather than any concrete, documented facts of what happened.


Skimming his biography explains a little better. He is definably an cynic towards American Culture, again I would love to see his sources for this since it is the first time I've ever seen this notion applied while ignoring the massive role the ISI and Pakistan played. (Besides a token "Pakistan helped set up Taliban"


If people want an example of why knee jerk reactions are not the best answer look at the Truman Plan, The Marshall Plan and the Establishment of Nato. All knee jerk reactions that solidified the Cold War. Afghanistan is an example of a global clusterfuck involving the U.S, USSR and Pakistan as the key players. The US was not in there before the Soviets though. As far as anyone can tell Afghanistan was not on any agencies list of operations anywhere. Even in as simple as an observation and research capacity until the Soviets came in.

Please list the works you cited in your research. Just 20 or so would be fine, just copy and paste your bibliography. Three minutes of work.

My point is you claim to have a life experience for every fucking topic ever posted in P&N, and even other forums. I remember when I first joined I laughed out loud as you described having a racist gf (Obama was running), because it was such an obvious made up story. Then an Israel thread happened and you talked about sipping coffee on the gaza strip. Then some Russia issue came up and you claimed to have loved visiting Moscow. Yet you have posted about still taking tests in college, the whole sham provides a funny side story to all the partisanship I read in P&N.

Your facts sound awfull similiar to shit said in the movie "Charlie Wilson's War" (the 1 million to 10 million rings a bell).

You can add valuable input without pretending to have been on the scenes for every current event posted here, or continue to make up shit as people snicker in the background.



*edited out the fact that I would trust the author after reading the article

 
Hrm well, RichardE's post annoyed me so I had to respond to that before reading the article. Now after reading the article I see the author's only citation is:

"a report in the San Francisco Chronicle (17 November 2001) noted that under the Taraki regime Kabul had been "a cosmopolitan city"."

So a grand total of three words were cited (this includes 'a'), and the citation is from the San Francisco Chronicle.

Thanks for linking a psuedo-blog.

*edit* oh Jesus craig you linked a gold mine of looney articles. This guy is a NUT:

He hates mother Teresa: http://www.michaelparenti.org/motherteresa.html

The corporate press loves the KKK (because the KKK are pro-capitalism LOL LOL): http://www.michaelparenti.org/KozyWithKlan.html

Oh man, this site is going to provide some fun reading when I got time, bookmarked, thanks again craig!
 
Originally posted by: CLite
Hrm well, RichardE's post annoyed me so I had to respond to that before reading the article. Now after reading the article I see the author's only citation is:

"a report in the San Francisco Chronicle (17 November 2001) noted that under the Taraki regime Kabul had been "a cosmopolitan city"."

So a grand total of three words were cited (this includes 'a'), and the citation is from the San Francisco Chronicle.

Thanks for linking a psuedo-blog.

*edit* oh Jesus craig you linked a gold mine of looney articles. This guy is a NUT:

He hates mother Teresa: http://www.michaelparenti.org/motherteresa.html

The corporate press loves the KKK (because the KKK are pro-capitalism LOL LOL): http://www.michaelparenti.org/KozyWithKlan.html

Oh man, this site is going to provide some fun reading when I got time, bookmarked, thanks again craig!

Funny. Penn and Teller ripped into Mother Teresa, and much of what they said agrees with the blog. There are no saints.
 
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Pocatello
Please stop saying as if North Vietnam had anything to do with democracy and freedom. Since my family is from South Vietnam, I have to say the North Vietnamese were the aggressor, they deserved to die invading South Vietnam. If they didn't die, they would had killed many South Vietnamese, which actually did happen.

Sorry, but I will say that the roots of North Vietnam lay in freedom from the people being colonized.

Ho Chi Minh had pursued that end since he wrote to President Wilson around 1920, and after the Japanese colonizers, who had replaced the French colonizers, were thrown out by the allies in WWII, he tried to ask the US to help them not get re-colonized by the French; the US responded by supporting its ally France to re-colonize them and even paid up to 90% of the French war costs. The US split the nation in half and agreed to have elections to re-unify it, and then blocked the elecitons because Ho Chi Minh would win.

The US was the support that kept Diem in power, who had some brutal policies.

North Vietnam did monstrous things in its war, but it can hardly be said that Vietnam's cause for freedom from colonization was not just and was not about freedom.

Your parents being from South Vietnam can both inform and bias their views. It's a little like asking a Southerner in the US to describe the Civil War after it ended.

Some peasants faced two of the world's most powerful militaries (France and US) in its fight for independance. Yes, they did terrible things to win. They shouldn't have had to.

I'm not saying by any means the regime that ended up in place by the end of the war was any example of something good - but it could have been a lot better had it been the regime that asked for US help after WWII, when Ho Chi Minh created a declaration of independance modelled on the US, when the US could have sided on the side of freedom.

being vietnamese myself, and my family are south vietnamese and escaped during the final days of the war, i have to say that craig's description is the big picture summary of the vietnam war. our parents have alot of bias, and while the north/ viet cong were complete assholes, the south government had alot of policies that did not garner popular support among the main populous.

the vietnam war was a really bad situation of failed us foreign policy and my family suffered alot during it 🙁. luckily my parents made it here so i can nef on P&N 🙂
 
Originally posted by: fleshconsumed
Originally posted by: CLite
Hrm well, RichardE's post annoyed me so I had to respond to that before reading the article. Now after reading the article I see the author's only citation is:

"a report in the San Francisco Chronicle (17 November 2001) noted that under the Taraki regime Kabul had been "a cosmopolitan city"."

So a grand total of three words were cited (this includes 'a'), and the citation is from the San Francisco Chronicle.

Thanks for linking a psuedo-blog.

*edit* oh Jesus craig you linked a gold mine of looney articles. This guy is a NUT:

He hates mother Teresa: http://www.michaelparenti.org/motherteresa.html

The corporate press loves the KKK (because the KKK are pro-capitalism LOL LOL): http://www.michaelparenti.org/KozyWithKlan.html

Oh man, this site is going to provide some fun reading when I got time, bookmarked, thanks again craig!

Funny. Penn and Teller ripped into Mother Teresa, and much of what they said agrees with the blog. There are no saints.

Ok I wasn't trying to defend Mother Teresa, I was just including the blog articles that stuck out to me. You have to admit the site is pretty hillarious.

 
Originally posted by: CLite
Hrm well, RichardE's post annoyed me so I had to respond to that before reading the article. Now after reading the article I see the author's only citation is:

"a report in the San Francisco Chronicle (17 November 2001) noted that under the Taraki regime Kabul had been "a cosmopolitan city"."

So a grand total of three words were cited (this includes 'a'), and the citation is from the San Francisco Chronicle.

Thanks for linking a psuedo-blog.

*edit* oh Jesus craig you linked a gold mine of looney articles. This guy is a NUT:

He hates mother Teresa: http://www.michaelparenti.org/motherteresa.html

The corporate press loves the KKK (because the KKK are pro-capitalism LOL LOL): http://www.michaelparenti.org/KozyWithKlan.html

Oh man, this site is going to provide some fun reading when I got time, bookmarked, thanks again craig!

Sure, I will when I get home. It's not life experience, its actually taking the time to learn about an issue when you encounter it instead of taking a partisan hack shit job like you do. I don't know nearly as much outside of the middle east and Euro/American history as the rest of the world. I couldn't tell you anything about Asia, Australia or Africa.

If you take two weeks of your lifes "free time" to research a subject you can learn a lot about it, add that to a poli sci mjaor (though that is changing after this year) and the fact I've lived in Israel and have traveled around Europe not to mention that I am politically active in Canada and participate in any active think group, focus group and policy group I can get on as well as having to deal with the general American politics as an effect of living in Canada. It adds a lot of "offhand knowledge". Everyone on this board who posts intelligently has some sort of "specialty". LegendKiller and Finance, a number of military individuals and there experience with that, Snowman and his side of the Palestinian Conflict, Craig and his ability to see usually a full spectrum, Mag and his ability to humanize Muslims, just because you lack to ability to actually excel in some area of knowledge doesn't mean everyone else in the world does.

Hell even McOwen has a special ability to put dots together (though he than usually flies off the entire board into coocoo land).


I love how you ranted on me before actually reading the guys info and finding out that yeah, he doesn't know what he is talking about. The only real "distinct" thing you have shown so far is a complete lack of comprehension on any topic you really touch.
 
Originally posted by: RichardE
Sure, I will when I get home. It's not life experience, its actually taking the time to learn about an issue when you encounter it instead of taking a partisan hack shit job like you do. I don't know nearly as much outside of the middle east and Euro/American history as the rest of the world. I couldn't tell you anything about Asia, Australia or Africa.

If you take two weeks of your lifes "free time" to research a subject you can learn a lot about it, add that to a poli sci mjaor (though that is changing after this year) and the fact I've lived in Israel and have traveled around Europe not to mention that I am politically active in Canada and participate in any active think group, focus group and policy group I can get on as well as having to deal with the general American politics as an effect of living in Canada. It adds a lot of "offhand knowledge". Everyone on this board who posts intelligently has some sort of "specialty". LegendKiller and Finance, a number of military individuals and there experience with that, Snowman and his side of the Palestinian Conflict, Craig and his ability to see usually a full spectrum, Mag and his ability to humanize Muslims, just because you lack to ability to actually excel in some area of knowledge doesn't mean everyone else in the world does.

Hell even McOwen has a special ability to put dots together (though he than usually flies off the entire board into coocoo land).


I love how you ranted on me before actually reading the guys info and finding out that yeah, he doesn't know what he is talking about. The only real "distinct" thing you have shown so far is a complete lack of comprehension on any topic you really touch.

I ranted on you not because I'm a partisan hack. Even If you agreed with the guy and listed your life experiences I would of still ranted. Every fucking thread you include some personal reference which is almost certaintly made up. I don't care what your view is, but claiming to have visited the gaza strip or Moscow or been dating a racist gf when racism was being discussed is getting fucking old.

I don't jump into issues spouting off like I know everything, I just discuss my point of view. That is what goes on in P&N, you are the only one to try to add a dimension of being personally involved with every topic you post in.





 
Originally posted by: CLite
Originally posted by: RichardE
Sure, I will when I get home. It's not life experience, its actually taking the time to learn about an issue when you encounter it instead of taking a partisan hack shit job like you do. I don't know nearly as much outside of the middle east and Euro/American history as the rest of the world. I couldn't tell you anything about Asia, Australia or Africa.

If you take two weeks of your lifes "free time" to research a subject you can learn a lot about it, add that to a poli sci mjaor (though that is changing after this year) and the fact I've lived in Israel and have traveled around Europe not to mention that I am politically active in Canada and participate in any active think group, focus group and policy group I can get on as well as having to deal with the general American politics as an effect of living in Canada. It adds a lot of "offhand knowledge". Everyone on this board who posts intelligently has some sort of "specialty". LegendKiller and Finance, a number of military individuals and there experience with that, Snowman and his side of the Palestinian Conflict, Craig and his ability to see usually a full spectrum, Mag and his ability to humanize Muslims, just because you lack to ability to actually excel in some area of knowledge doesn't mean everyone else in the world does.

Hell even McOwen has a special ability to put dots together (though he than usually flies off the entire board into coocoo land).


I love how you ranted on me before actually reading the guys info and finding out that yeah, he doesn't know what he is talking about. The only real "distinct" thing you have shown so far is a complete lack of comprehension on any topic you really touch.

I ranted on you not because I'm a partisan hack. Even If you agreed with the guy and listed your life experiences I would of still ranted. Every fucking thread you include some personal reference which is almost certaintly made up. I don't care what your view is, but claiming to have visited the gaza strip or Moscow or been dating a racist gf when racism was being discussed is getting fucking old.

I don't jump into issues spouting off like I know everything, I just discuss my point of view. That is what goes on in P&N, you are the only one to try to add a dimension of being personally involved with every topic you post in.

You think its hard to visit Moscow when you backpack through Europe? This isn't 1960 anymore.

You think its hard to visit the Gaza strip when you lived in Israel?

You think its hard to believe an American Woman who voted pro-prop 8 is racist towards Barack Obama (which was not an uncommon thing..) ?

You think writing a research essay on Afghanistan as a poli sci major is unusual? 😕

Go live life and you can have your own experiences as well, I can gurantee there are people probally even in this thread who far outshine my experiences in life. I know at least one who just got back from Sudan and because of that I am planning a trip there this summer with a student group. Will you call me out on that after I visit Sudan and try to visit the Darfur region?

It's called living life to its fullest.

 
Originally posted by: RichardE

You think its hard to visit Moscow when you backpack through Europe? This isn't 1960 anymore.

You think its hard to visit the Gaza strip when you lived in Israel?

You think its hard to believe an American Woman who voted pro-prop 8 is racist towards Barack Obama (which was not an uncommon thing..) ?

Go live life and you can have your own experiences as well, I can gurantee there are people probally even in this thread who far outshine my experiences in life. I know at least one who just got back from Sudan and because of that I am planning a trip there this summer with a student group. Will you call me out on that after I visit Sudan and try to visit the Darfur region?

It's called living life to its fullest.

Thank you for the inspiration to go live my life, it's all I was waiting on.

Personally I've traveled Europe, a friend from Bucknell lived in Belgium his whole life his father was in the NATO airforce. I spent 6 months study abroad in Melbourne University, been to South Africa when I was younger for a Safari. I do plenty of trips to midwest national parks, and to top it all off go sailing in the BVI's around tortolla whenever I can scrap up enough money.

However, the difference Richard is that you try to include personal references in every thread. It gets to the point of silliness, and I don't have a personal beef against you. It's just having been active in P&N for the last 8-10 months its just something I've noticed every time I've seen you post and it built up into my rant today. I don't really disagree with your points of view very often to be perfectly honest.

If you really do have the references and your paper I'd be interested in reading it, my friend from Belgium is involved in government war games now (poli sci major) and his GF is editor of a progressive pakistani blog "CHUP", so I talk with them every once and a while about politics.

However, my vibe is to call bullshit on half your posts, if I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time.







 
Originally posted by: CLite
Originally posted by: RichardE

You think its hard to visit Moscow when you backpack through Europe? This isn't 1960 anymore.

You think its hard to visit the Gaza strip when you lived in Israel?

You think its hard to believe an American Woman who voted pro-prop 8 is racist towards Barack Obama (which was not an uncommon thing..) ?

Go live life and you can have your own experiences as well, I can gurantee there are people probally even in this thread who far outshine my experiences in life. I know at least one who just got back from Sudan and because of that I am planning a trip there this summer with a student group. Will you call me out on that after I visit Sudan and try to visit the Darfur region?

It's called living life to its fullest.

Thank you for the inspiration to go live my life, it's all I was waiting on.

Personally I've traveled Europe, a friend from Bucknell lived in Belgium his whole life his father was in the NATO airforce. I spent 6 months study abroad in Melbourne University, been to South Africa when I was younger for a Safari. I do plenty of trips to midwest national parks, and to top it all off go sailing in the BVI's around tortolla whenever I can scrap up enough money.

However, the difference Richard is that you try to include personal references in every thread. It gets to the point of silliness, and I don't have a personal beef against you. It's just having been active in P&N for the last 8-10 months its just something I've noticed every time I've seen you post and it built up into my rant today. I don't really disagree with your points of view very often to be perfectly honest.

If you really do have the references and your paper I'd be interested in reading it, my friend from Belgium is involved in government war games now (poli sci major) and his GF is editor of a progressive pakistani blog "CHUP", so I talk with them every once and a while about politics.

However, my vibe is to call bullshit on half your posts, if I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time.

Ah, well that makes more sense than. Yeah, its a fault I have, I always feel the need to substantiate my posts or claims with why I think/feel that way. It's going to really blow your mind if I decide to switch to a science major and start posting in science related threads like that 😉

And kudos to going to South Africa, its on my "list of things I want to do in life".
 
Originally posted by: CLite
Hrm well, RichardE's post annoyed me so I had to respond to that before reading the article. Now after reading the article I see the author's only citation is:

"a report in the San Francisco Chronicle (17 November 2001) noted that under the Taraki regime Kabul had been "a cosmopolitan city"."

So a grand total of three words were cited (this includes 'a'), and the citation is from the San Francisco Chronicle.

Thanks for linking a psuedo-blog.

*edit* oh Jesus craig you linked a gold mine of looney articles. This guy is a NUT:

He hates mother Teresa: http://www.michaelparenti.org/motherteresa.html

The corporate press loves the KKK (because the KKK are pro-capitalism LOL LOL): http://www.michaelparenti.org/KozyWithKlan.html

Oh man, this site is going to provide some fun reading when I got time, bookmarked, thanks again craig!

That's really weak criticism of this article. He's a major left-wing author for many years, and this is a 'commentary', not a book. Commentaries do't commonly use 'citations'.

The one he used for the Chronicle was not as you imply some proof that his info was baseless with only three words credited; rather, it was simply a stylistic choice he made that when he ventured into a somewhat subjective area, the nature of Afghanistan's culture at the time under the left government, an area he's especially vulnerable to charges of that 'just being his opinion, and biased because he's a leftist', he chose to mention the opinion cited in that article as well summarizing the culture.

That doesn't porove anything wrong with him or his article. Most of the article is simply filled with verifiable facts you can confirm. If you want citations, read his books.

As for the broader criticism - some may be legitimate - as I said repeatedly now, I think the useful far outweighs the questionable.

You cite his article on the KKK and the media - how accurate is *your* commentary? Not very.

First, his article was more broadly on the media's coverage of right-wing figures and groups compared to left-wing figures and groups, not only the KKK< which was just an example, in contrast to your statement that it was the entire theme of the article. Second, had he said what you claimed, I'd agree with you - but he didn't. Instead, his point seemed to me to well and accurately capture the bias in the media, and why - not claiming it was 'intentional'.

That's the point with cultural bias - you may not recognize it even when it's pointed out. You think today's opinions on equal black rights and the criticisms of past racism would have been heard very well by people a century ago, that they'd have said "wow now that you mention it, you're right'. Of course not.

He doesn't say there's some pro-KKK conspicary in the media; he points out how the media *thinks* it's being fair in its coverage, but how the effect of their practices is to help the right-wing figures and groups. I happen to think he's hit on a right-on, important point about our 'political culture', that our coverage tends to have a gray area on the edge that gives credibitlity to people by including them, because they aren't banished to the 'too far out to be covered' realm.

When's the last time you saw a race issue covered in the mainstream media where 'one side' given coverage for their iew to be heard and considered was the 'pro-racist' side?

That 'side' has been 'deemed unacceptable' with both the right and left denouncing it, so it's not heard, even though people vaguely suspect it exists.

Similarly, the 'socialist' view, for example, is virtually never heard, similarly banished as 'outside the realm of legitimate discussion'.

But in contrast to the treatment of racism, take the coverage of anti-gay religious leaders; they are given more respectful coverage of their views as 'one side of the issue'.

People who want to deny equal marital rights to gays are given more credibility, while people who would want to deny equal marital rights to blacks are not given coverage.

His point is simply to note the effect that the 'assumptions' in media coverage that divide these issues can be wrong.

Look for the claim the media "loves" the KKK - which you falsely accuse him of, as you are guilty of the inaccuracy you accuse him of, and you don't find it.

Rather, you find him pointing out how the game is played, how there is a 'range' of acceptable views for public debate defind by the fringes, so that when the media covers a group like the KKK and other far-right gorups and figures, even critically, it makes 'lesser' right-wing figures like George. W. Bush (or Reagan) seem 'moderate' and 'well within the range of discussion'; contrast Reagan's coverage later to his coverage in his 1976 run, when he was widely discussed as a 'radical right-winger too far out for national office'.

Similarly, it was in no cmall part the real leftists of the 30's who gave FDR 'cover' that he was the 'moderate' as he implemented massive new program less than the leftists wanted.

That's Parenti's point, and he's right on. In contrast to your claim of the media 'loving the KKK", here's how his article concludes:

Of course, the media do not see it that way. They believe they just go out and get the story. Were they to join in the battle against racism, they would, by their view, be guilty of ?advocacy journalism.? So instead of exposing hate groups the press gives exposure .to. hate groups. It?s called ?objectivity.?

The media "believe they just go out and get the story". They believe that - nothing about their 'loving the KKK', about their intentionally furthering right-wing interests.

He points out that they have the effect of helping the right with the assumptions they make, the choices who gets coverage, not the intent.

Yes, he does suggest that the corporatists who run the media are less threatened by the right-wing groups because they're not a threat to 'free market capitalism', but he doesn't come close to any suggestion that the reporters go out thinking 'let's be soft on the right-wing groups today', rather he's discussing how the 'assumptions' who gets what kind of coverage are influenced.

He's right on as well about the excesses of the use of 'objectivity' causing the media at times to cover discredited views in ways that give them more credibility.

And theyr'e selective about it, in no small part it seems due to a vaguely defined set of assumptions ranging from personal views to the marketplace democgraphics to a 'herd mentality' where the media tends to say the same thing the rest of the media said and perpetuate its assumptions - which is why you see Reagan as 'right-wing nut' one moment and 'conservative statesman' the next, Al Gore as 'compulsive liar' one minute and 'champion for the planet' the next.

His larger theme points out the way the coverage has long been 'leaning right', and cites several examples you don't refute.

You should consider his points and rebute them if you can - your post shows a gross lack of reading comprehension as you misrepresent his statements in your 'summary'.

As far as Mother Theresa - is this your first exposure to the 'other side of the story'? As another poster noted, Christopher Histchens and others have long made those points.

My first reaction sounded a bit like yours - 'there goes Hitchens looking for the 'man bites dog' angle to grab coverage, while he cynically attacks an innocent woman', but as it turns out, there is a lot to the 'rest of the story' that has led many to view the previous coverage of Mother Theresa to be a media creation that resulted in her name becoming the words used to exemplify the height of 'public service', as in 'she's no Mother Theresa, she takes a salary for her work'. Again, you did not actually disporve any of his points.

 
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Pocatello
Please stop saying as if North Vietnam had anything to do with democracy and freedom. Since my family is from South Vietnam, I have to say the North Vietnamese were the aggressor, they deserved to die invading South Vietnam. If they didn't die, they would had killed many South Vietnamese, which actually did happen.

Sorry, but I will say that the roots of North Vietnam lay in freedom from the people being colonized.

Ho Chi Minh had pursued that end since he wrote to President Wilson around 1920, and after the Japanese colonizers, who had replaced the French colonizers, were thrown out by the allies in WWII, he tried to ask the US to help them not get re-colonized by the French; the US responded by supporting its ally France to re-colonize them and even paid up to 90% of the French war costs. The US split the nation in half and agreed to have elections to re-unify it, and then blocked the elecitons because Ho Chi Minh would win.

The US was the support that kept Diem in power, who had some brutal policies.

North Vietnam did monstrous things in its war, but it can hardly be said that Vietnam's cause for freedom from colonization was not just and was not about freedom.

Your parents being from South Vietnam can both inform and bias their views. It's a little like asking a Southerner in the US to describe the Civil War after it ended.

Some peasants faced two of the world's most powerful militaries (France and US) in its fight for independance. Yes, they did terrible things to win. They shouldn't have had to.

I'm not saying by any means the regime that ended up in place by the end of the war was any example of something good - but it could have been a lot better had it been the regime that asked for US help after WWII, when Ho Chi Minh created a declaration of independance modelled on the US, when the US could have sided on the side of freedom.

Hitler won the election fair and square too, he had the backing of the whole country. The North Vietnamese Army was anything but a peasant army, thanks to the Chinese and the Russians. During the siege of Diem Bien Phu, they had more artillery than the French. It had some of the most advanced weapons at the time, all they were lacking were strategic bombers. By 1970, it was no longer a guerrilla war, since most of the Vietcongs had been killed in the Tet Offensive. By 1972, it was a full invasion. North Vietnam was an independent country wanted to invade South Vietnam. They won, it doesn't make them the good guys.
 
Originally posted by: Pocatello
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Pocatello
Please stop saying as if North Vietnam had anything to do with democracy and freedom. Since my family is from South Vietnam, I have to say the North Vietnamese were the aggressor, they deserved to die invading South Vietnam. If they didn't die, they would had killed many South Vietnamese, which actually did happen.

Sorry, but I will say that the roots of North Vietnam lay in freedom from the people being colonized.

Ho Chi Minh had pursued that end since he wrote to President Wilson around 1920, and after the Japanese colonizers, who had replaced the French colonizers, were thrown out by the allies in WWII, he tried to ask the US to help them not get re-colonized by the French; the US responded by supporting its ally France to re-colonize them and even paid up to 90% of the French war costs. The US split the nation in half and agreed to have elections to re-unify it, and then blocked the elecitons because Ho Chi Minh would win.

The US was the support that kept Diem in power, who had some brutal policies.

North Vietnam did monstrous things in its war, but it can hardly be said that Vietnam's cause for freedom from colonization was not just and was not about freedom.

Your parents being from South Vietnam can both inform and bias their views. It's a little like asking a Southerner in the US to describe the Civil War after it ended.

Some peasants faced two of the world's most powerful militaries (France and US) in its fight for independance. Yes, they did terrible things to win. They shouldn't have had to.

I'm not saying by any means the regime that ended up in place by the end of the war was any example of something good - but it could have been a lot better had it been the regime that asked for US help after WWII, when Ho Chi Minh created a declaration of independance modelled on the US, when the US could have sided on the side of freedom.

The North Vietnamese Army was anything but a peasant army, thanks to the Chinese and the Russians. During the siege of Diem Bien Phu, they had more artillery than the French. It had some of the most advanced weapons at the time, all they were lacking were strategic bombers. By 1970, it was no longer a guerrilla war, since most of the Vietcongs had been killed in the Tet Offensive. By 1972, it was a full invasion. North Vietnam was an independent country wanted to invade South Vietnam.

Your clarification on the armaments is well taken; my phrase referred to the source of the people who did the fighting, it was a peasant nation, albeit with outside arms aid.

However, on your last sentence, it was little more an 'independant nation' of the North invading the South, than Lincoln was an 'independant nation' invading the Confederacy.

The south had been formed only in the 50's, in what was much more a theft of the South from the broader country of Vietnam, much as the Soviets 'stole' East Germany.

If a foreign power came in and declared part of the US to be its own nation, and the rest of the US invaded it to take it back, that's not exactly an 'independant nation' invading.

Indeed, the terms of the split in the first place had the US promise to support national elections for a government over the re-unified Vietnam - a promise the US did not keep.

Edit for your edit:

Hitler won the election fair and square too, he had the backing of the whole country.

You're on the wrong direction here. While your history of Histler's rise to power is inaccurate, that doesn't affect the principle you raise, so let's put that aside.

On the principle, are you saying democracy is bad because a Hitler can be elected?

You really don't understand the reason why democracy is a good system, if you think that any 'bad' result in an election means democracy is bad.

No one claims that Democracy always picks a great leader, that you might not sometimes get a better, say, king that you would have a president.

The point of democracy is the people's right to have that power to choose, even if they choose badly - and oh by the way, the fact they have the power tends to mean that the people in the running are more receptive to the public's agenda rather than the agenda of an oligarchy, however imperfectly.

So your point is really misguided and illogical - the US promotes democracy for sound reasons, and for selfish reasons we were the enemy of democracy when convenient.
 
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Pocatello
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Pocatello
Please stop saying as if North Vietnam had anything to do with democracy and freedom. Since my family is from South Vietnam, I have to say the North Vietnamese were the aggressor, they deserved to die invading South Vietnam. If they didn't die, they would had killed many South Vietnamese, which actually did happen.

Sorry, but I will say that the roots of North Vietnam lay in freedom from the people being colonized.

Ho Chi Minh had pursued that end since he wrote to President Wilson around 1920, and after the Japanese colonizers, who had replaced the French colonizers, were thrown out by the allies in WWII, he tried to ask the US to help them not get re-colonized by the French; the US responded by supporting its ally France to re-colonize them and even paid up to 90% of the French war costs. The US split the nation in half and agreed to have elections to re-unify it, and then blocked the elecitons because Ho Chi Minh would win.

The US was the support that kept Diem in power, who had some brutal policies.

North Vietnam did monstrous things in its war, but it can hardly be said that Vietnam's cause for freedom from colonization was not just and was not about freedom.

Your parents being from South Vietnam can both inform and bias their views. It's a little like asking a Southerner in the US to describe the Civil War after it ended.

Some peasants faced two of the world's most powerful militaries (France and US) in its fight for independance. Yes, they did terrible things to win. They shouldn't have had to.

I'm not saying by any means the regime that ended up in place by the end of the war was any example of something good - but it could have been a lot better had it been the regime that asked for US help after WWII, when Ho Chi Minh created a declaration of independance modelled on the US, when the US could have sided on the side of freedom.

The North Vietnamese Army was anything but a peasant army, thanks to the Chinese and the Russians. During the siege of Diem Bien Phu, they had more artillery than the French. It had some of the most advanced weapons at the time, all they were lacking were strategic bombers. By 1970, it was no longer a guerrilla war, since most of the Vietcongs had been killed in the Tet Offensive. By 1972, it was a full invasion. North Vietnam was an independent country wanted to invade South Vietnam.

Your clarification on the armaments is well taken; my phrase referred to the source of the people who did the fighting, it was a peasant nation, albeit with outside arms aid.

However, on your last sentence, it was little more an 'independant nation' of the North invading the South, than Lincoln was an 'independant nation' invading the Confederacy.

The south had been formed only in the 50's, in what was much more a theft of the South from the broader country of Vietnam, much as the Soviets 'stole' East Germany.

If a foreign power came in and declared part of the US to be its own nation, and the rest of the US invaded it to take it back, that's not exactly an 'independant nation' invading.

Indeed, the terms of the split in the first place had the US promise to support national elections for a government over the re-unified Vietnam - a promise the US did not keep.

North Vietnam had agree in a peace treaty in Paris not to invade South Vietnam. Reunification would be sought through peaceful mean. "Theft of South Vietnam", according to the North Vietnamese. Ho Chi Minh would never hold a fair election in the North. Vietnam has never had a fair election, under anybody.
 
Originally posted by: Pocatello
North Vietnam had agree in a peace treaty in Paris not to invade South Vietnam. Reunification would be sought through peaceful mean. "Theft of South Vietnam", according to the North Vietnamese.

That treaty also required the election for a government of re-unified Vietnam be held, and so Ho Chi Minh had every right to expect those elections.

When South Vietnam, backed by the US, refused to hold the elections because they expected not to win, that was the break in the treaty.

The 'peaceful means' were refused by South Vietnam and the US, not the North.

After the Geneva Conference (1954), which divided Vietnam at the 17th parallel, Ho became the first president of the independent republic of North Vietnam. The accord also provided for elections to be held in 1956, aimed at reuniting North and South Vietnam; however, South Vietnam, backed by the United States, refused to hold the elections. The reason was generally held to be that Ho's popularity would have led to reunification under Communist rule.
 
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