A topic that I believe that has become commonly referenced in today's mainstream media is the recognition that the Republican Party has become a cult.

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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,243
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I think we have a cult believer among us. We already know there are millions of people similarly infected. The typical reaction among liberals is to appeal to reason, to show their cognitive dissonance, etc, all of which we know does not work. It is my intention in starting this thread to explore what is known about cults, what solutions there may be out there to deprogram cult members, and so on, but for me I intend to explore why cult behavior exists and if there are conditions of knowledge regarding the phenomenon that that might make people more impervious or immune to it. I have to go now but I will try later to go back to the link to explore more deeply what I read there.

I once wrote a college paper on religious cults, though it was a long time ago. In those days, parents would hire professional deprogrammers to kidnap their kids from the cult compounds, then deprogram them by using repetition and methods similar to the cults. The idea was they were brainwashed so they brainwashed them back to reality. Sometimes it worked. But American far right conservatism is a mass movement. There is no way to collectively unbrainwash them. We are competing with up to decade of continuous propaganda bombardment which they willingly subject themselves to. And there's 10's of millions of them. So we can't do it one by one.

Reason occasionally works on some people, Occasionally. Unfortunately, it's all we have. But hey, if you or anyone else has any ideas, I'll listen. "Goddammit, I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it'd do any good" said some character in a movie.
 

PumpkinCake

Member
Nov 2, 2023
158
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I once wrote a college paper on religious cults, though it was a long time ago. In those days, parents would hire professional deprogrammers to kidnap their kids from the cult compounds, then deprogram them by using repetition and methods similar to the cults. The idea was they were brainwashed so they brainwashed them back to reality. Sometimes it worked. But American far right conservatism is a mass movement. There is no way to collectively unbrainwash them. We are competing with up to decade of continuous propaganda bombardment which they willingly subject themselves to. And there's 10's of millions of them. So we can't do it one by one.

Reason occasionally works on some people, Occasionally. Unfortunately, it's all we have.

You could say the literal exact same thing about extreme leftists.

Both sides are so bad about this... They pick the worst examples that are an extreme minority, IE "KKK" on the right. "Antifa" on the left.

These groups are like .0001% of the group as a whole, but they do make good talking points.
 

VashHT

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2007
3,351
1,431
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Except the crazy right wingers are a far larger portion. What percentage of republicans think trump did nothing wrong or still believe he actually won the election? It's a lot more than .0001%.
 

nickqt

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2015
8,175
9,158
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As someone who ends up exactly in the middle between right and left, I think both sides are about equal with the % who are crazy extremists.
There is no "exactly in the middle", which means you are 100% full of shit.

The BothSidesDoIt™ nonsense that comes form this hours-old account can be safely ignored if you don't want to be trolled to hell and back.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,733
6,758
126
As someone who ends up exactly in the middle between right and left, I think both sides are about equal with the % who are crazy extremists.
As someone who believes him or herself selves to be in the middle, would you care to describe what you think is wrong on the right? I take it you are against the racism on that side.
 
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PumpkinCake

Member
Nov 2, 2023
158
108
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There is no "exactly in the middle", which means you are 100% full of shit.

The BothSidesDoIt™ nonsense that comes form this hours-old account can be safely ignored if you don't want to be trolled to hell and back.


Just because I'm new doesn't mean my opinion isn't valid
 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
8,318
9,689
136
Just because I'm new doesn't mean my opinion isn't valid

No one is saying your opinion isn't valid, we're just saying there are a lot of warning signs around your account that suggest you're up to something.

-Keep running into timed posting limit, which @DAPUNISHER suggested was a VPN security feature.

-Have basically immediately gone stock, built in a factory conservative with the same trite arguments we've heard a million times before.

-Brand new account that is immediately mixing it up with anyone and everyone.

You're conservative, so you should know better than anyone that trust is earned, not given freely, especially in an online community.

You broadly seem open to discussion and generally roll with the punches, which is nice and something you definitely need on the AT Forums, but you're sort of putting down weird vibes which people need to sort out so just gonna have to deal with our trust issues being valid too.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,243
136
You could say the literal exact same thing about extreme leftists.

Both sides are so bad about this... They pick the worst examples that are an extreme minority, IE "KKK" on the right. "Antifa" on the left.

These groups are like .0001% of the group as a whole, but they do make good talking points.

People on the far left do have some similarities with people on the far right in being reality challenged. With that I agree. But these days the far right is the vast majority of the republican party. While the democrats are split pretty evenly between far left and center left (center left is where the facts and reality align IMO)..

But there's also some differences in the two extremes. The far left isn't so armed and determined to use "second amendment remedies" as the far right. The far left embraces some conspiracy theories on a couple particular issues, but the far right is completely enthralled by them, top to bottom. And while IMO many on the far left have a bigoty problem with Jews, the far right has a bigoty problem with pretty much anyone not straight, white and Christian. And most importantly, the far right believes an election was stolen that wasn't actually stolen, and they supported a president who unleashed a mob on our capital building to disrupt and shut down a Constitutional process. And they still support him and want him back in office. No democracy can survive terribly long if a substantial part of the populace doesn't trust election outcomes and is only willing to accpt and abide by them when their candidate wins. This is unprecedented in American history.

If you can't see that democracy in the United States is on the brink of collapse right now, pretty much because of this, then you just aren't being objective. You are, instead, trying to maintain your "both sides" centrism and hence are unwilling to properly assess the risk of each bloc.

Saying both sides are the same is a lazy way of thinking. Because it's harder to look closely and figure out where they are similar and where they are different. But the differences are important. The political left and the political right are fundamentally different in too many ways to sustain this ":both sides are the same"" assertion. And I say this as someone who is quite critical of the far left, often on this very forum.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,342
32,955
136
You could say the literal exact same thing about extreme leftists.

Both sides are so bad about this... They pick the worst examples that are an extreme minority, IE "KKK" on the right. "Antifa" on the left.

These groups are like .0001% of the group as a whole, but they do make good talking points.
The worst people on the left are anti-fascist. Think about why that statement is a red flag.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,733
6,758
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People on the far left do have some similarities with people on the far right in being reality challenged. With that I agree. But these days the far right is the vast majority of the republican party. While the democrats are split pretty evenly between far left and center left (center left is where the facts and reality align IMO)..

But there's also some differences in the two extremes. The far left isn't so armed and determined to use "second amendment remedies" as the far right. The far left embraces some conspiracy theories on a couple particular issues, but the far right is completely enthralled by them, top to bottom. And while IMO many on the far left has a bigoty problem with Jews, the far right has a bigoty problem with pretty anyone not straight, white and Christian. And most importantly, the far right believes an election was stolen that wasn't actually stolen, and they supported a president who unleashed a mob on our capital building to disrupt and shut down a Constitutional process. And they still support him and want him back in office. No democracy can survive terribly long if a substantial part of the populace doesn't trust election outcomes and is only willing to accpt and abide by them when their candidate wins. This is unprecedented in American history.

If you can't see that democracy in the United States is on the brink of collapse right now, pretty much because of this, then you just aren't being objective. You are, instead, trying to maintain your "both sides" centrism and hence are unwilling to properly assess the risk of each bloc.

Saying both sides are the same is a lazy way of thinking. Because it's harder to look closely and figure out where they are similar and where they are different. But the differences are important. The political left and the political right are fundamentally different in too many ways to sustain this ":both sides are the same"" assertion. And I say this as someone who is quite critical of the far left, often on this very forum.
You are saying, as I read your points, that in fact he is not balanced in the middle, that his inability or refusal to see or admit to that is actually symptomatic of having fallen under cult thinking typical of people who are unwilling to admit that the real danger today to democracy is in fact coming from the right.

I want to look at how the link I posted attempts to explain how people become attracted to and fall into cultist thinking. What are the characteristics that make people susceptible? Since a host of things are mentioned, I think I'll break this down into shorter manageable (for me) post to come: I will begin them with WHY to identify them as followups to this one.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,733
6,758
126
As someone who was raised in a legit cult, you have to want to leave.
Surely this is a very important truth but it does not tell me anything I can use. I need to know what events occurred in your life that may not have occurred in the lives of others that got you to want to leave. If they had happened to others do you think others would have wanted out too? We know that people escape cults on their own or with help with some regularity, but perhaps to the level that membership declines and the cult disappears on its own.

EDIT: I meant to say but perhaps NOT to the level ……….
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,243
136
You could say the literal exact same thing about extreme leftists.

Both sides are so bad about this... They pick the worst examples that are an extreme minority, IE "KKK" on the right. "Antifa" on the left.

These groups are like .0001% of the group as a whole, but they do make good talking points.

Uh, the majority of rank and file republicans believe that Trump won the election in 2020. It's not .00001%. And that is far and away not the only thing they are batshit about.,

But I see that you're determined to keep up your bothsidesarethesame position. They're not, and you're wrong. But you do you.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,733
6,758
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WHY: What is the psychology behind a cult? Experts who study cults suggest the human need for comfort prompts people to seek out others or things to soothe their fears and anxieties. Research suggests that those elements and others have led hundreds of thousands of people to commit to thousands of cults operating around the world.

In my opinion this sounds a lot like fish schooling or animals herding up. Safety in numbers but with the twist that want humans are seeking is psychological in nature beyond a fear of being eaten. I see a component here that tells me that what a person seeks from a group is a sense of identity as in identical, conformist in a way that avoids criticism and scrutiny. Identity as identity, we are the same and thus safe from the ridicule of each other.

So a need for comfort doesn't quite do it for me. A nice sofa is something that gives me comfort. I think the comfort described here is of a psychological nature, the seeking of something that would be a balm to having to re-experience some discomfort one has known in the past. This speaks to me of psychological injury of the kind I generally describe. The point is that you have to have experienced something negative before to have panic attacks or obsessive concerns it may happen again. A characteristic of a cult, then, in my opinion would be filled by people who have been victims of psychological abuse and have been unable to put the issue behind them.

This leads me to the notion that we need to better understand varying degrees of psychological resistance, why some survive victimization better than others, or discover resources that allow them to more successfully cope. One thing that comes to mind, in listening to criminals who have reformed in jail or escaped gangs etc, is that someone in their childhood demonstrated some atypical caring, a loving mother, a best friend,a teacher, a priest, anybody really who may have shown some semblance of love.

This says to me that one possible way to deal with the issues that drive people into cults is hearing some alternative message from the surrounding negative culture that says, YOU ARE OK.

This has to be something more than giving every child a gold star which really says it's OK to be a failure, in my opinion. The problem is that there is so much emotional need in my opinion, real love is hard to find and hard to deliver genuinely.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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Surely this is a very important truth but it does not tell me anything I can use. I need to know what events occurred in your life that may not have occurred in the lives of others that got you to want to leave. If they had happened to others do you think others would have wanted out too? We know that people escape cults on their own or with help with some regularity, but perhaps to the level that membership declines and the cult disappears on its own.
I can't think of anything that happened to me. I just never believed it in the first place. I pretended to believe to make my parents and everyone happy but deep down I knew something was wrong.

I found out later that quite a few of the younger girls were raped by the leader. Some of them left. Some are still in the cult to this day even though the leader died years ago. I don't know if there is anything anyone can do. The best you can do is plant seeds of doubt and hope those seeds take root and grow. Cults train their members to use roundup on any seedlings ASAP though.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,342
32,955
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WHY: What is the psychology behind a cult? Experts who study cults suggest the human need for comfort prompts people to seek out others or things to soothe their fears and anxieties. Research suggests that those elements and others have led hundreds of thousands of people to commit to thousands of cults operating around the world.

In my opinion this sounds a lot like fish schooling or animals herding up. Safety in numbers but with the twist that want humans are seeking is psychological in nature beyond a fear of being eaten. I see a component here that tells me that what a person seeks from a group is a sense of identity as in identical, conformist in a way that avoids criticism and scrutiny. Identity as identity, we are the same and thus safe from the ridicule of each other.

So a need for comfort doesn't quite do it for me. A nice sofa is something that gives me comfort. I think the comfort described here is of a psychological nature, the seeking of something that would be a balm to having to re-experience some discomfort one has known in the past. This speaks to me of psychological injury of the kind I generally describe. The point is that you have to have experienced something negative before to have panic attacks or obsessive concerns it may happen again. A characteristic of a cult, then, in my opinion would be filled by people who have been victims of psychological abuse and have been unable to put the issue behind them.

This leads me to the notion that we need to better understand varying degrees of psychological resistance, why some survive victimization better than others, or discover resources that allow them to more successfully cope. One thing that comes to mind, in listening to criminals who have reformed in jail or escaped gangs etc, is that someone in their childhood demonstrated some atypical caring, a loving mother, a best friend,a teacher, a priest, anybody really who may have shown some semblance of love.

This says to me that one possible way to deal with the issues that drive people into cults is hearing some alternative message from the surrounding negative culture that says, YOU ARE OK.

This has to be something more than giving every child a gold star which really says it's OK to be a failure, in my opinion. The problem is that there is so much emotional need in my opinion, real love is hard to find and hard to deliver genuinely.
It is okay to "be a failure." I put that in quotes because nobody is actually a failure. A person who would classify some else as a failure is a heavily damaged person. What is a success? Elon fucking Musk?

All that matters is if you try your best and do what makes you happy. You know this. You've been railing about competition for years but it seems you've forgotten.

Anyway, regarding the something extra you are looking for in addition to comfort: there is something extremely appealing about feeling like you've discovered a "truth" that very few others know. This is the other catalyst, and you're very familiar with it.
 

PumpkinCake

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Nov 2, 2023
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It is okay to "be a failure." I put that in quotes because nobody is actually a failure. A person who would classify some else as a failure is a heavily damaged person. What is a success? Elon fucking Musk?

All that matters is if you try your best and do what makes you happy. You know this. You've been railing about competition for years but it seems you've forgotten.

Anyway, regarding the something extra you are looking for in addition to comfort: there is something extremely appealing about feeling like you've discovered a "truth" that very few others know. This is the other catalyst, and you're very familiar with it.
“All that matters is if you try your best”

Unfortunately culturally this is rarely taught by parents anymore.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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“All that matters is if you try your best”

Unfortunately culturally this is rarely taught by parents anymore.
Actually, this is being taught more and more often in the US, and is usually derided as "participation trophies" by the less enlightened.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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You could say the literal exact same thing about extreme leftists.

Both sides are so bad about this... They pick the worst examples that are an extreme minority, IE "KKK" on the right. "Antifa" on the left.

These groups are like .0001% of the group as a whole, but they do make good talking points.
Except you are using a false example. Antifa are not part of the "left" they are anarchists. You are falling for a right wing rebranding just like their definition of woke.

Trying finding someone on the left equivalent to MTG, Lauren Bobert, Matt Gaetz, Josh Hawley, Paul Gosar. Not only policy extremists, associate with white nationalists and just horrible human beings.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,780
8,353
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A cult's existence is reliant on the survivability of its leader or so goes the logic as far as that's concerned. However, we have a MAGA cult that can withstand the loss of its leader because this cult is not based on a single religious deity that cannot die.

If Trump is somehow unable to sustain the faith of his followers, they will seek another to replace him. IOW, Trump is not the problem. It's the fact that the base of the Republican party has been conditioned to blindly follow whomever can tell the best fairytales that soothes their troubled souls, that can spin an unending stream of comforting lies of hate and fear, that can fling retributive and spiteful lies at the wink of a racist tinged eye about (what else?) the ungodly foreign invaders and the crime wave they will spread into every corner of America.

Facts and truths are a weak weapon against politically contrived here-say. The GOP relies on this for their very existence.
 

PumpkinCake

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Nov 2, 2023
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Except you are using a false example. Antifa are not part of the "left" they are anarchists. You are falling for a right wing rebranding just like their definition of woke.

Trying finding someone on the left equivalent to MTG, Lauren Bobert, Matt Gaetz, Josh Hawley, Paul Gosar. Not only policy extremists, associate with white nationalists and just horrible human beings.

I still haven't gotten a definition of what a "MAGA" is, but I generally wouldn't consider any extremist segments part of the "right" either. You are falling for the left wing rebranding.

Both the left and right have tons of idiots with dumb opinions that are corrupt. Hell we are finding out now that the biden administration retroactively classified the "stolen classified documents" they found at mar a lago. IE, they weren't classified until AFTER charges were filed.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
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I still haven't gotten a definition of what a "MAGA" is, but I generally wouldn't consider any extremist segments part of the "right" either. You are falling for the left wing rebranding.
MAGA is a diehard Trump supporter.

70% of Republicans believe the 2020 election was stolen. That is an extremist belief that has gone mainstream in the Republican party, and it's just one example of their extremism.

Both the left and right have tons of idiots with dumb opinions that are corrupt. Hell we are finding out now that the biden administration retroactively classified the "stolen classified documents" they found at mar a lago. IE, they weren't classified until AFTER charges were filed.
What, and I can't stress this enough, the FUCK?
 
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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
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Both sides have cult tendencies. As a staunch moderate, the big difference I see between the two from a "cult" perspective is, republicans tend to not care if other republics don't toe the line. IE a repub supports gay marriage, who cares. Whereas democrats tend to get very upset if you don't follow every single party talking point to a T.

I find this an interesting perspective, because as is evident in the replies you received, most Democrats would say the exact opposite. I think it is because the two sides see very different views on what parts of the line are important.

Democrats see their base as being very diverse, both culturally and ethically, which leads to very diverse political view and beliefs. Are you a black gay wiccan? Welcome, have a cookie! They will tolerate a wide range of belief's as long as you are civil to one another about it. This is what the right calls being 'Woke'. But be an asshole to one another and it will not be tolerated.

The Republicans on the other hand see themselves as being guardians of the American culture and do not allow much deviation from what they see as those cultural norms, but they don't really care if you are civil to one another about it or not. As an example, some types of racism is accepted in the GOP because it does not deviate from the cultural norms, so while many Republicans find it objectionable, it is tolerated because it does not interfere with their primary group standards. But be an atheist and they might literally throw stones at you (not an exaggeration. I'm an atheist. It happened).

Your view here tells me that you are way farther along the conservative's side of the spectrum than sitting in the middle. Something you might want to consider.
...I want to even extend that concept by saying that almost all forms of belief are the product of cult like thinking.
Be very carful here. We often use the word 'belief' very loosely, but there is a major difference between believing that the sun will come up tomorrow and that a loving god is going to punish you for masturbating. While we use the same word for both, we mean very different things by it.
I think instead that size and popularity equates to integration via a sense of normalcy and tradition that simply obviates the need for individual control over the personal lives of members. The success and social integration of mainstream religions mean they can drop the behaviors that define a true cult and likely for the sake of being palatable, I would say.
I disagree, all that has really changed is the tools used to exert that control. The need for control has not be obliviated, only thing that really changes is who is doing the enforcing. Fall outside the lines of that normalcy or break those traditions, and society will punish you for it. All that has changed is the scale. You can see this clearly with cults that have reached that middle size where they have more than a few thousand people they start to use a mix of individual and societal pressures to control their members. You can still see that in some of the larger religions as well, the aforementioned Mormons try really hard to exert individual pressure on a local level and are largely successful.
He didn't tell anyone to protest at the capital?
Once again, you are clearly listening more to right wing media then anything else. He literally did tell them to protest, even even suggested it should be violent. Don't take my word for it, go read his speech on January 6th. The transcripts are not hard to find. Look for the official ones written by his administrations. Several times, and again right at the end, he tells them to walk down Pennsylvania avenue and fight for our country.