A thought experiment prompted by recent threads on education and health care.

[Fear No Evil]

What about the pigs who come to the table strapped with explosives to kill the pigs eating at the table? Should they be waterboarded? Is waterboarding torture to pigs who like rolling around in the mud and water? Should the pigs who blew themselves up or tried to blow themselves up be given civilian trials and lawyers? Would they take food from the table and give it to the terrorist pigs while the civilian pigs die of starvation because they don't want to be accused of being uncivilized?

 

[daishi5]

Say you have a culture where you eat communally around a big table with nice slow food and good conversation. The table and dining manners become the foundation for your culture, the place where stories are told and traditions passed down, where the youth are instructed by their elders and taught community respect.

Not say for some reason, maybe a shortage of potatoes, one of the tribe decides he's going to gorge on the potatoes before anybody else gets a helping.

And let's say that he encourages a few others to do the same, not wanting to be the only one getting the cold stares.

And so, in a short time, in order to get enough calories to stay alive, dinner becomes a massive food fight with everybody stuffing themselves as fast as they can.

This is what I referred to in another thread as a race to the bottom.

It's a free country they have and there is no law against eating as much as you can as fast as you can. It's called there free table competition with the best being the fattest and the less successful dying of starvation.

Some wanted to make laws to keep people from eating fast, but they were called nanny state do goodies and folk of great arrogance, pretending to know what was best for others.

This very sort of thing happened when you let white people loose on Indian land. They, the Indians, forgot to hold title to it in a court house in the capital. They thought of it as their table and they ate slow and easy like.

Some want to make a table for health care and some what to take the science classroom off the table so there's more grits.
------------

Pigs are very successful animals because they are pigs. They will eat huge amounts of almost anything. Runt pigs, however, usually die.

Dinners are successful animals so long as they aren't infected by pigs and they see that all have enough to eat.

What culture do you naturally fit into?

How do pigs protect their rights as pigs.

How do diners save their culture from pigs?

Read some books by Thomas Sowell sometime, I can provide you with some names if you want. He references some communal Jewish settlements which lived just like your example. Oh, and they all had the "everyone gorging themselves" problem.

Also, your example does make a mistaken assumption that if everyone is a polite diner, everyone will be ok. What if you have 2 million diners? And the food on their platter is well beyond their ability to measure easily. They can't tell if the amount is enough for the other ~2 million diners. No matter how much they take, they can't tell how much it affects others, because even a huge amount of overindulgence makes an almost un-measurable difference to their neighbors. That leaves you depending on a communal group to make decisions, but the decisions are still made by individuals who all lack the proper amount of information to make a decision. Of course, then people suggest creating some leading group that will collect this information and make decisions for the good of the group. There was a book published by two soviet economists on their dismal failure to provide this leadership. I can get you the name of the book later, it is enlightening. Too many people assume a state controlled economy failed because of greed and bad leadership. They make a convincing argument that an economy of any decent size is just too complex and too rapid in its changes for any human to manage it with any hope of success.

Then there is the pigs. Oh greedy pigs, they are so greedy that when one of them finds out his neighbor is starving, he offers to go get them more food, if they pay him extra. No pig relies on the benevolence of the baker to get his food, but relies on their mutual self interest. Every pig is seeking out a way to make the other pigs life better, not out of benevolence, but out of a desire to make a profit. In this way even the greediest pigs who play by the rules benefits society as whole.

Or, we could just assume we are all ignorant of which is better and look at the results. China used to be communal, and over 300 Million people lived in extreme poverty. It changed its food production over to greedy owners, and now about 200 million people live in extreme poverty. Those 100 million people difference didn't die, in fact the population increased. The same people, mostly the same government, when they lived as diners they starved, when they let the pigs take over, a lot less people starved.

Your thought experiment is cute, but you need to be very convincing to make me reject something that brought 100 million real life people out of the most destitute living conditions.

 

[Moonbeam]

By frequently putting "the 'other' white meat" on the menu.

Maybe. If the Indians had known their future would they have not killed every white person that landed?

 

[Moonbeam]

But the corporate farms would use too many chemicals or genetically modified crops for the fat pigs likings who will purchase the food nonetheless. The slow farmers seeing that their farming industry is changing... decide to market organically grown local produce. The slow farmers start to do quite well as more of the health conscious pigs buy the locally grown organic produce.

And the corporate farms will go organic and still run them out of business.

 

[Moonbeam]

Irrelevancies like comparing free market principles with potatoes?

Stick with your incense and water bong man.

That said, I like potatoes. Especially if they are mashed with some milk and butter added. But I like bacon more. Mmmmm bacon.

Stay out of threads that ask you to think. There is nothing to gain in announcing to all you're an idiot.

 

[Moonbeam]

Better quote:

If you're not a liberal by 20, you have no heart.
If you're not a conservative by 30, you have no brain.

To the OP:

This works about as well as "barstool economics," in that it doesn't work. I'm a staunch conservative (not a neocon, but a true conservative), and I don't buy what you're spewing.

Regulating how much each diner can eat will only make everyone hungry. Redistribution of wealth has not worked once in recorded history. Why do we assume it will work now?

He says with great confidence. How about the Potlatch?

 

[Moonbeam]

You have simply described the tragedy of the commons. It is a strong effect and is why allowing individuals to always make decisions that affect more than just them is frequently not realistic. You will always have people gaming the system unless you make it prohibitive for them to do so.

Yes, I know what I am describing. What do you suggest in the way of making things prohibitive?

 

[Specop 007]

Stay out of threads that ask you to think. There is nothing to gain in announcing to all you're an idiot.

I have enough intelligence to discuss an issue in its form and not use ridiculous analogies.

If you want to discuss the failings of free markets do so. If you want to discuss potatoes do so.

Dont pretend your somehow enlightened by discussing the free market through potatoes.

 

[Moonbeam]

Moonie discovers "life boat rules" and thinks he's come up with something unique.

I think you are the one who thinks he's come up with something unique. It's obvious I'm addressing the problem of the commons in my own way and showing that the problem is seldom addressed or considered. People believe in the impossible because they don't face the truth.

 

[Moonbeam]

What about the pigs who come to the table strapped with explosives to kill the pigs eating at the table? Should they be waterboarded? Is waterboarding torture to pigs who like rolling around in the mud and water? Should the pigs who blew themselves up or tried to blow themselves up be given civilian trials and lawyers? Would they take food from the table and give it to the terrorist pigs while the civilian pigs die of starvation because they don't want to be accused of being uncivilized?

Start your own thought experiment somewhere else than in mine, please.

 

[daishi5]

Found them:


Heaven on Earth: The rise and fall of Socialism by Joshua Muravchik.
The turning point: Revitalizing the soviet economy by Nikolai Shmelev and Vladimir Popov.

These are primary sources, if you want a basic overview, you can start with Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell.

 

[Moonbeam]

Read some books by Thomas Sowell sometime, I can provide you with some names if you want. He references some communal Jewish settlements which lived just like your example. Oh, and they all had the "everyone gorging themselves" problem.

Also, your example does make a mistaken assumption that if everyone is a polite diner, everyone will be ok. What if you have 2 million diners? And the food on their platter is well beyond their ability to measure easily. They can't tell if the amount is enough for the other ~2 million diners. No matter how much they take, they can't tell how much it affects others, because even a huge amount of overindulgence makes an almost un-measurable difference to their neighbors. That leaves you depending on a communal group to make decisions, but the decisions are still made by individuals who all lack the proper amount of information to make a decision. Of course, then people suggest creating some leading group that will collect this information and make decisions for the good of the group. There was a book published by two soviet economists on their dismal failure to provide this leadership. I can get you the name of the book later, it is enlightening. Too many people assume a state controlled economy failed because of greed and bad leadership. They make a convincing argument that an economy of any decent size is just too complex and too rapid in its changes for any human to manage it with any hope of success.

Then there is the pigs. Oh greedy pigs, they are so greedy that when one of them finds out his neighbor is starving, he offers to go get them more food, if they pay him extra. No pig relies on the benevolence of the baker to get his food, but relies on their mutual self interest. Every pig is seeking out a way to make the other pigs life better, not out of benevolence, but out of a desire to make a profit. In this way even the greediest pigs who play by the rules benefits society as whole.

Or, we could just assume we are all ignorant of which is better and look at the results. China used to be communal, and over 300 Million people lived in extreme poverty. It changed its food production over to greedy owners, and now about 200 million people live in extreme poverty. Those 100 million people difference didn't die, in fact the population increased. The same people, mostly the same government, when they lived as diners they starved, when they let the pigs take over, a lot less people starved.

Your thought experiment is cute, but you need to be very convincing to make me reject something that brought 100 million real life people out of the most destitute living conditions.

China is burring itself in pig shit. The rivers and forests will die and then the sea. The air will kill millions.

 

[Moonbeam]

I have enough intelligence to discuss an issue in its form and not use ridiculous analogies.

If you want to discuss the failings of free markets do so. If you want to discuss potatoes do so.

Dont pretend your somehow enlightened by discussing the free market through potatoes.

Don't pretend I am pretending to be enlightened by discussing the free market through potatoes.

Start your own free market thread.

 

[daishi5]

China is burring itself in pig shit. The rivers and forests will die and then the sea. The air will kill millions.

You guess it will kill millions, I have given you some evidence that it has saved over a hundred million, and if it continues, will save over two hundred million more. Actually the number is much greater, since the total of three hundred million is a rotating number, many of them die only to be replaced by another person who is doomed to the same fate.

Do you have any evidence of any society of diners ever doing better? I have given 3 examples, the soviets, the chinese and the jewish kibbutz(sp?).

 

[Moonbeam]

You guess it will kill millions, I have given you some evidence that it has saved over a hundred million, and if it continues, will save over two hundred million more. Actually the number is much greater, since the total of three hundred million is a rotating number, many of them die only to be replaced by another person who is doomed to the same fate.

Do you have any evidence of any society of diners ever doing better? I have given 3 examples, the soviets, the chinese and the jewish kibbutz(sp?).

6 million years of human evolution based on social cooperation.

Is China on a path to self destruction. Is China worried about sustainability. Have you done any thinking about who is going to feed a few billion more pigs? If China eats fish like the Japanese it will far exceed the world's supply of fish. And then there's India ready to join the guests at the table.

 

[Mursilis]

6 million years of human evolution based on social cooperation.

And competition. You're incredibly naive if you think otherwise.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

And competition. You're incredibly naive if you think otherwise.

I find it amusing that liberals always love to cite Darwin when it comes to evolution VS creation, but they conveniently completely (willfully?) ignore natural selection and survival of the fittest when it comes to economics, social policy, etc.

Competition is inherent in humans and pretty much every cognizant being. Striving to better one's self and one's family is inherent in all of nature. That is why socialism/communism/Marxism/whatever you want to call it are so wrong and such a failure throughout human history. They rob men of their natural desire to better themselves.

 

[daishi5]

6 million years of human evolution based on social cooperation.

Is China on a path to self destruction. Is China worried about sustainability. Have you done any thinking about who is going to feed a few billion more pigs? If China eats fish like the Japanese it will far exceed the world's supply of fish. And then there's India ready to join the guests at the table.

The ideas of Thomas Malthus will never die I see.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Actually moonie has some nice idealism here. I recall the movie 1 million BC. Were a brutal animal like tribe Fed its leader the dominate male first on down the line by hunter status.

The eldest was made an outcase . He was dieing and was found by a more civilized Blond headed tribe . That Fed the old and sick first and the Children/women . Later in the story A great upheaval destroyed the land. The barbarian Chief was earlier gorded and lost his high position , This is the Man who made his eldest an outcast.

The barbarian leader after being gorded was last to eat suddenly . After the upheaval the 2 tribes became 1 and the old barbarian leader and tribe members were shocked at the first meal when they tried to Eat first. But were prevented by the outcast son . Who First fed the Crippled old leader much to his delight and he seen the wisdom of the civilized tribes attributes. Sick first women and children followed by hunters . I think moonie did a good job here.

 

[drebo]

Actually moonie has some nice idealism here. I recall the movie 1 million BC. Were a brutal animal like tribe Fed its leader the dominate male first on down the line by hunter status.

The eldest was made an outcase . He was dieing and was found by a more civilized Blond headed tribe . That Fed the old and sick first and the Children/women . Later in the story A great upheaval destroyed the land. The barbarian Chief was earlier gorded and lost his high position , This is the Man who made his eldest an outcast.

The barbarian leader after being gorded was last to eat suddenly . After the upheaval the 2 tribes became 1 and the old barbarian leader and tribe members were shocked at the first meal when they tried to Eat first. But were prevented by the outcast son . Who First fed the Crippled old leader much to his delight and he seen the wisdom of the civilized tribes attributes. Sick first women and children followed by hunters . I think moonie did a good job here.

There's a big difference between fiction and real-life. In a fictional movie, anything can happen. In real life, we follow more pragmatic ideals.

The reality: hungry hunters don't catch as much, and thus the entire tribe suffers.

 

[sandorski]

It is an interesting Thought Experiment. Unfortunately the usual Ideologically Blind, Knee-Jerk Over Reactors, and Thought Avoiders have filled the thread with nonsense in an attempt to completely avoid the obvious.

That is, the answer to the situation is Regulation. The same solution that's been in use since the first people gathered together to form Tribes, Nations, and Civilizations.

You're welcome.

 

[glenn1]

Let me bring your thought experiment to its logical conclusion. Another more aggressive tribe comes into the area and slaughters most of the members of Moonbeam's tribe and enslaves the rest. The new tribe tells the remaining members to STFU and puts them to work peeling potatoes for their new masters. Moonbeam's civilization comes to an end.

 

[nobodyknows]

Let me bring your thought experiment to its logical conclusion. Another more aggressive tribe comes into the area and slaughters most of the members of Moonbeam's tribe and enslaves the rest. The new tribe tells the remaining members to STFU and puts them to work peeling potatoes for their new masters. Moonbeam's civilization comes to an end.

So you don't think it's possible to be strond and aggressive while having manners and compassion? Why am I not surprised?

 

[Sclamoz]

6 million years of human evolution based on social cooperation.

Is China on a path to self destruction. Is China worried about sustainability. Have you done any thinking about who is going to feed a few billion more pigs? If China eats fish like the Japanese it will far exceed the world's supply of fish. And then there's India ready to join the guests at the table.

I have a modest proposal...

 

[LumbergTech]

Better quote:

If you're not a liberal by 20, you have no heart.
If you're not a conservative by 30, you have no brain.

I much prefer: If you don't realize by 30 that both sides are full of shit and operating on absolutes, you have no brain.