A sitting Congressman is demanding that the US military hunt down American citizens on American soil..

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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
He said "I never knew you." God is personal. You can't just do "good" without trying your best to determine what "good" means. You have to make some attempt to know him.

If our attempts are sincere he is pleased even with our stumbles.

This did not address what I said, and it also ignored that Jesus had already defined what is "good" earlier in the passage.

12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Getting personal, maybe you should consider asking yourself why you, as a Christian, are capable of looking the other way (and arguing that others do the same) while things are done to others that you would never want done to you.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,005
12,075
146
Really. To focus on just one aspect, why were there no calls for gay marriage or transgender acceptance in the 80s or 90s? Were liberals then not focused on making their lives better?
Was still a strong focus on civil rights for black people, ironically. Gay rights came primarily in the 90's. Can't do everything at once or you get labeled a socialist in America.

Gays/transgendered people also had a very small voice back then, they found it in the 90's.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,005
12,075
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Since Obama, the left has gone farther left than the right has right.
That's kinda like saying 'since being set on fire, you've gone further toward putting yourself out than letting the fire burn'.

For humans, equilibrium between being burnt and not being burnt isn't 50%, just like for (rational) humans, equilibrium between extreme left wing and extreme right wing isn't a gnat's hair left of 'police state'.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
Yeah, and liberals of the 80s and 90s at least paid lip service to the problems of blacks. Now they cheer while black-owned businesses are destroyed by rioters.


Individual incidents don't change the fundamental ideals.



Really. To focus on just one aspect, why were there no calls for gay marriage or transgender acceptance in the 80s or 90s? Were liberals then not focused on making their lives better?

Since Obama, the left has gone farther left than the right has right. I mean they're calling for the abolition of police. A freaking Vox writer had to apologize for pumping the brakes on the notion.

Isn't there a Commandment against bearing false witness?
 
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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
This did not address what I said, and it also ignored that Jesus had already defined what is "good" earlier in the passage.

12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Getting personal, maybe you should consider asking yourself why you, as a Christian, are capable of looking the other way (and arguing that others do the same) while things are done to others that you would never want done to you.

God is personal. You have to make some attempt to know him, personally. You can't skate by on works alone. I'm not even protestant, and this is essentially anti-protestant.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
Was still a strong focus on civil rights for black people, ironically. Gay rights came primarily in the 90's. Can't do everything at once or you get labeled a socialist in America.

Gays/transgendered people also had a very small voice back then, they found it in the 90's.
He's totally lying. The fight for gay rights was alive and well back in the 80s. Back then the primary concern focused on how the President and the govt ignored the AIDS epidemic because it was the "gay disease" and the religious right was happy the gays were dying because it was God's wrath.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
God is personal. You have to make some attempt to know him, personally. You can't skate by on works alone. I'm not even protestant, and this is essentially anti-protestant.
We're not talking about skating by on works alone. We're talking people who believe they don't need any works at all.
Perhaps you misunderstand, but Pascals wager is about faith, not works.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,005
12,075
146
He's totally lying. The fight for gay rights was alive and well back in the 80s. Back then the primary concern focused on how the President and the govt ignored the AIDS epidemic because it was the "gay disease" and the religious right was happy the gays were dying because it was God's wrath.
Fair enough. i was born in '83 (in TX no less) so I missed the boat on much of that.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
He's totally lying. The fight for gay rights was alive and well back in the 80s. Back then the primary concern focused on how the President and the govt ignored the AIDS epidemic because it was the "gay disease" and the religious right was happy the gays were dying because it was God's wrath.

I said gay marriage, and we don't have to even go back to the 80s or 90s. When California tried in 2003 to pass a civil union law, opponents said it opened the door to gay marriage, and Democrats rejected that as a red herring.

"Nobody is talking about gay marriage except the people who are trying to wave it around as a straw man issue." Assemblyman John Longville, Democrat.

Within 5 years suddenly it wasn't a straw man any longer.

So either he was lying, or liberals have moved farther left since then. It's truly hard to imagine transplanting 90s Bill Clinton to today and imagining him as anything other than a crazy right-winger who happened to be in favor of abortion.
 

killster1

Banned
Mar 15, 2007
6,208
475
126
If I searched in the thread about the Jade Helm incident, where conservatives panicked that a routine military training exercise was a cover for a govt coup, will I find your name there?

BTW what I do see, quite clearly in fact, is that Trumpism consists largely of making up self-serving narratives and downright lies in order to rationalize the use of violent govt force against their political opposition.
Case in point: a citizen who was extrajudicially executed by law enforcement cutting off his breathing for 8 minutes deserved it because he was 'resisting.'
Or if rioting and looting happens concurrently with peaceful protesting, and Trumpists disagree with the protesters' speech, then the rationalization is that all of those peaceful protesters are actually rioters and looters and therefore terrorists, and deserve all the police brutality they get, even if not one of the peaceful protesters ever took part in rioting or looting. Don't you know that people are hiring the protesters, you ask without any proof. Or leaving weapons out, you cite as evidence for your rationalizing, while not providing any evidence of such. Or claim you've seen things, but provide no links to videos of these things.
Trumpists will apply any rationalization that is necessary to be able to use govt force to suppress any speech they disagree with, and will even rationalize that they are protecting freedom while doing so.
"Liberalism is a mental disorder", "liberalism is treason," "any speech critical of the President is sedition," and using lawful means to attempt to hold the President accountable to the rule of law is "attempting to overturn an election." Those are just a sampling of the very common narratives used by Trumpists to suppress speech they disagree with, all of which imply the threat of govt force.
And as there appears to be no check whatsoever in this rationalizing by Trumpists, and as the narratives excusing (and often encouraging) govt violence against their fellow Americans get repeated and amplified within their echo chambers, and that in fact this behavior is spurred on by Trump himself, as he tweets that his detractors are "human scum" and worse, it is perfectly reasonable for anyone that is even mildly critical of this administration to assume that this situation will continue to worsen to its logical conclusion.
Your so stupid. I'm suppose to link a video to something I have experienced? Sorry I'm not constantly video taping violence to prove I have experienced it. You sound so silly you want proof of things I have seen and experienced first hand. Police are scared, George Floyd was on meth fentenal and held a gun to a pregnant ladies belly but he did not deserve to be treated like that. But does that give everyone the right to throw bricks at the police? Two wrongs never make a right. The facts are antifa exists. They promote violence they overwhelm the police. Saw this in Portland Oregon. I'm happy for the national guard, I'm happy for the Latin kings in Chicago protecting their neighborhood from looters was fun to see.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Yeah, and liberals of the 80s and 90s at least paid lip service to the problems of blacks. Now they cheer while black-owned businesses are destroyed by rioters.

Individual incidents don't change the fundamental ideals.



Really. To focus on just one aspect, why were there no calls for gay marriage or transgender acceptance in the 80s or 90s? Were liberals then not focused on making their lives better?

Since Obama, the left has gone farther left than the right has right. I mean they're calling for the abolition of police. A freaking Vox writer had to apologize for pumping the brakes on the notion.

I haven't noticed any actual cheering. In case you hadn't noticed, the world is full of people who won't listen until you threaten their money. Tends to tighten them up a bit. Depending on where you look, some of the Cop shop culture in this country is a mess, breeding a lot of resentment in the community. The fact that it's not universal tells us that it doesn't have to be that way. Until that changes, the situation will boil over again & again like it has many times in the past.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,005
12,075
146
They had to suffer because you were scared of being labeled a socialist?
I was somewhere between an infant and a 7 year old in the 80's, so that's not really super applicable. I don't know who was or wasn't calling for gay rights in the 80's, and this has already traveled far enough off topic that i'm not super inclined to continue it (though others will probably call you out on your shit, as usual).

Regardless of the above, I've watched where conservatives were when I was a child, watching Rush Limbaugh's crazy ass with my father, watching conservatives primarily through Obama's administration, and now. It's been a windy road, and there's very little in common between their journey start and current location. I don't think they'll survive to the destination.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
I said gay marriage, and we don't have to even go back to the 80s or 90s. When California tried in 2003 to pass a civil union law, opponents said it opened the door to gay marriage, and Democrats rejected that as a red herring.

"Nobody is talking about gay marriage except the people who are trying to wave it around as a straw man issue." Assemblyman John Longville, Democrat.

Within 5 years suddenly it wasn't a straw man any longer.

So either he was lying, or liberals have moved farther left since then.

And you lie by taking one person's opinion from 30+ years ago and broadbrushing that to mean that it was every Democrats' opinion at that time, and that every Democrat today is responsible for it.

Have you bothered to read anything I've posted here today? Or are you going to keep hypocritically creating false narratives to justify your rationalizations?

In this case, the issue isn't that some Democrats might have once been against same-sex marriage, it's about how you are against same-sex marriage today. Because you see, if they are bad for having once been against it, as you are arguing, then you must be just as bad if not worse for still being against it today. Or did that not occur to you?
 
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IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
68,854
26,646
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I said gay marriage, and we don't have to even go back to the 80s or 90s. When California tried in 2003 to pass a civil union law, opponents said it opened the door to gay marriage, and Democrats rejected that as a red herring.

"Nobody is talking about gay marriage except the people who are trying to wave it around as a straw man issue." Assemblyman John Longville, Democrat.

Within 5 years suddenly it wasn't a straw man any longer.

So either he was lying, or liberals have moved farther left since then. It's truly hard to imagine transplanting 90s Bill Clinton to today and imagining him as anything other than a crazy right-winger who happened to be in favor of abortion.
Civil rights for LGBT people was never a right vs left issue. It was and is an equal rights issue. There is nothing in conservative orthodoxy that would support denying equal rights to LGBT people. The Republican Party threw out conservationism when it discovered that it was easier to win elections based on voter suppression, gerrymandering, and pandering to bigots.

Side-note: Bill Clinton was never a liberal. He was center-right and dragged the Dems to the right. It worked for him but not for America.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
Your so stupid. I'm suppose to link a video to something I have experienced? Sorry I'm not constantly video taping violence to prove I have experienced it. You sound so silly you want proof of things I have seen and experienced first hand. Police are scared, George Floyd was on meth fentenal and held a gun to a pregnant ladies belly but he did not deserve to be treated like that. But does that give everyone the right to throw bricks at the police? Two wrongs never make a right. The facts are antifa exists. They promote violence they overwhelm the police. Saw this in Portland Oregon. I'm happy for the national guard, I'm happy for the Latin kings in Chicago protecting their neighborhood from looters was fun to see.

And the rationalizing false narratives persist. BTW, I live in Portland, OR. Born and raised here, in fact. We all know how Patriot Prayer incited those riots and staged them so as to blame antifa for them. It's why Joey going to be sharing a cell with his buddy Jeremy soon enough.


And no, it is neither stupid nor silly for me to expect some kind of proof or evidence to your words. In fact, I think it would be stupid or silly if I didn't.
 
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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,734
18,004
146
Yeah, and liberals of the 80s and 90s at least paid lip service to the problems of blacks. Now they cheer while black-owned businesses are destroyed by rioters.

Individual incidents don't change the fundamental ideals.



Really. To focus on just one aspect, why were there no calls for gay marriage or transgender acceptance in the 80s or 90s? Were liberals then not focused on making their lives better?

Since Obama, the left has gone farther left than the right has right. I mean they're calling for the abolition of police. A freaking Vox writer had to apologize for pumping the brakes on the notion.
You seem very concerned.
 

ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
37,734
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146
No, not fundamentally. You don't see any difference between the left-wingers during Clinton and those of today?



No, not offhand. But circumstances are different right now. The culture war is at its apogee. At least I hope it is. If Trump wins or Chauvin is acquitted, people should live in fear of what progressives will do.

hold onto your britches, maybe they'll give conservatives a run for their money on the domestic terror front. It's a challenge for sure, but let's see how it plays out.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,303
136
Civil rights for LGBT people was never a right vs left issue. It was and is an equal rights issue. There is nothing in conservative orthodoxy that would support denying equal rights to LGBT people. The Republican Party threw out conservationism when it discovered that it was easier to win elections based on voter suppression, gerrymandering, and pandering to bigots.

Side-note: Bill Clinton was never a liberal. He was center-right and dragged the Dems to the right. It worked for him but not for America.

I disagree with the bolded. Conservatism is defined by different people in different ways, as is often confused as an economic philosophy, but at its core conservatism is about the conservation of the social hierarchy. Deep down in their orthodoxy, conservatives believe that there is a 'natural order' to society that makes people inherently unequal. Thus, I would argue there is everything in conservative orthodoxy that would support denying equal rights to LGBT people. Which is why they do so.
 
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soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
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You are stretching, he didn't say hunt down and kill. You are making things up. You don't know people are hiring some of the protestors? You don't know people are leaving weapons out for them? Not a shred of evidence??? I've seen Antifa members many times destroying things and worse. Guess you only see what you want to see or have not been out much.
How about you link some of it up for us to see. I want to see your proof.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
I was somewhere between an infant and a 7 year old in the 80's, so that's not really super applicable. I don't know who was or wasn't calling for gay rights in the 80's, and this has already traveled far enough off topic that i'm not super inclined to continue it (though others will probably call you out on your shit, as usual).

Regardless of the above, I've watched where conservatives were when I was a child, watching Rush Limbaugh's crazy ass with my father, watching conservatives primarily through Obama's administration, and now. It's been a windy road, and there's very little in common between their journey start and current location. I don't think they'll survive to the destination.

Well, if we're going to get our hits in before we cease with the off-topic stuff, I may as well do mine.

Of course it's a windy road for conservatives. That's how the road looks when you don't have all the answers; when you have principles and fail to meet them, and can only do as best you can. Progressives, by contrast, have the same answers for everything because there are no principles, only the pursuit of power. That's what's so sad about blacks and gays and (soon) transgenders. They're just pawns in the chess game, to be sacrificed when necessary to the agenda. Blacks wallow in poverty in cities overwhelmingly controlled by democrats. No one cares about their conditions until they blow up and present a political opportunity as they do now. That's why it's no surprise to me that you said earlier, "Let's keep the protests going until the election."