A simple point on the economy

[Craig234]

As so often, the options largely being discussed are silly, extreme ends - do nothing, nationalize all the banks.

What's wrong with the following:

Recognize the lack of real competitiveness in the financial industry, where the industry is united to protect its own interests despite 'some' competition, and break up the big players enough to return to 'real' competition, the way that Standard Oil was broken up because it had become too powerful?

Where was any Wall Street firm with the power to compete calling for an end to, say, the credit default swap abuses? Nowhere - all the firms to varying degrees took part. It's not about opposing the basic 'free market' banking system; when's the last time you heard a liberal criticize the local, smaller bank, who provides bread and butter services?

The problem is when the industry is 'too powerful' so that it can become a leech in too many ways, rather than primarily benefits for society.

As I've said before, when you have the financial industry making 30% of the nation's business profits, that's far too high for an 'overhead' industry. It's a big red flag that things are broken and inefficient - just as analagously when you hear of a retailer who pays 30% of his revenue for 'security' or 'protection', it's a big red flag for 'mob extortion', because it's too much to make any economic sense.

I linked it another thread, but again, check out the following interview with former IMF chief economist Simon Johnson, on the Bill Moyers program Friday:

Click

He makes the case that there is a power struggle and either the public or the financial industry is going to get their way, and the price is high for them to.

Frankly, Obama's economic team has me worried that they're not the right people for this battle - from Gietner down, they're part of the 'problem' group.

The question isn't whether their foxes - they are - but rather whether they will now do what's right for the public, or for their old industry.

 

[chess9]

That's a wonderful piece, Craig. Great find. I missed it on tv as I don't watch tv. 🙂

The problem with what he's saying is that our Congress is bought and paid for by Wall Street bankers, hedge fund managers, and stock market people. As he points out, the Obama administration is fully infiltrated with the people who caused the problems we now face. How can we have faith in them?

Having said that, the guy is brilliant and spot on regarding everything he says, except he doesn't commit to the chances of breaking the oligarchy up actually succeeding. 🙂 You are talking about an extremely complex task and something beyond the resources of the FDIC and Treasury at the moment. Also, the costs of such an approach are unknown at this time. They will probably be on the order of 2-3 trillion dollars. Moyers dropped the ball on that issue. He acted more as a cheerleader than a critical thinker I'm afraid.

-Robert

 

[Zebo]

1% owns 90% of wealth in this country and pols DO NOT get elected w/o their support. Largely apolitical, growing profits is only MO, and why no change on the warfare state, the open borders, the outsourcing, the privatization of profits and socialism loses has been consistently anti-proletariat, 99% of us, for at least 40 years. And why I use the term Black Bush when it comes to Obama and don't take too serious politics in general. Not a dimes worth of difference.

 

[sandorski]

yup, good video

 

[Slew Foot]

The foxes have been guarding the henhouse for a while. Every now and then theyll toss you an egg, but theyll demand it back when they run out of meat.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: Zebo
1% owns 90% of wealth in this country and pols DO NOT get elected w/o their support. Largely apolitical, growing profits is only MO, and why no change on the warfare state, the open borders, the outsourcing, the privatization of profits and socialism loses has been consistently anti-proletariat, 99% of us, for at least 40 years. And why I use the term Black Bush when it comes to Obama and don't take too serious politics in general. Not a dimes worth of difference.

LOL, Zebo, you may turn me yet. 🙂 When you think about the Treasury appointments, O's foreign policy, his approach to state secrets, and a few other issues, you start to see that he's going to have to move way left to separate himself from Bush.

-Robert

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: chess9

Originally posted by: Zebo
1% owns 90% of wealth in this country and pols DO NOT get elected w/o their support. Largely apolitical, growing profits is only MO, and why no change on the warfare state, the open borders, the outsourcing, the privatization of profits and socialism loses has been consistently anti-proletariat, 99% of us, for at least 40 years. And why I use the term Black Bush when it comes to Obama and don't take too serious politics in general. Not a dimes worth of difference.

LOL, Zebo, you may turn me yet. 🙂 When you think about the Treasury appointments, O's foreign policy, his approach to state secrets, and a few other issues, you start to see that he's going to have to move way left to separate himself from Bush.

-Robert

We have to redefine terms of debate to get everyone invested in our nation and not at mercy of 1%ers all the time. I am am not smart enough to do it but one way from a economic perpective, no idea how to get powers that be to abide by such an arrangement, is everyone just keeps what's in their possession, take ownership - from a section 8 project to a farm house in Iowa it's all their's now and we start fresh. The empty assets go by auction. All new national bank, all new currency, giving every adult $100,000 and start over over again for trading and afore mentioned auctions. Old Securities bonds paper leans notes, etc are now worthless..


What's a banking thread without Jews?... JK😛

The Jews did this very thing every 7 years for hundreds of years of their existence to prevent what we got now. It works.

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: chess9

Originally posted by: Zebo
1% owns 90% of wealth in this country and pols DO NOT get elected w/o their support. Largely apolitical, growing profits is only MO, and why no change on the warfare state, the open borders, the outsourcing, the privatization of profits and socialism loses has been consistently anti-proletariat, 99% of us, for at least 40 years. And why I use the term Black Bush when it comes to Obama and don't take too serious politics in general. Not a dimes worth of difference.

LOL, Zebo, you may turn me yet. 🙂 When you think about the Treasury appointments, O's foreign policy, his approach to state secrets, and a few other issues, you start to see that he's going to have to move way left to separate himself from Bush.

-Robert

We have to redefine terms of debate to get everyone invested in our nation and not at mercy of 1%ers all the time. I am am not smart enough to do it but one way from a economic perpective, no idea how to get powers that be to abide by such an arrangement, is everyone just keeps what's in their possession, take ownership - from a section 8 project to a farm house in Iowa it's all their's now and we start fresh. The empty assets go by auction. All new national bank, all new currency, giving every adult $100,000 and start over over again for trading and afore mentioned auctions. Old Securities bonds paper leans notes, etc are now worthless..


What's a banking thread without Jews?... JK😛

The Jews did this very thing every 7 years for hundreds of years of their existence to prevent what we got now. It works.

Wow, I was not seeing that Jews coming. You completely blindsided me. And you are completely right. I think I've been coming to this conclusion for quite some time and here is a great historical example of it.

I would fully support such a measure, but the consequences to negligence and laziness need to be real and palatable. I am not very happy about graduating with 1.33:1 debt:income ratio. I'm paying for the extra cash sloshing around in this country (ballooning education costs), and I'll be paying the taxes for the bailouts, and I'll be paying the taxes for the Social Security and Medicare that is going to go bankrupt 30 years before I get a chance at benefiting from it.

At this point, seeing all these future taxes coming, I see little point in pursuing a Masters. I'm studying EE, btw, at one of the top 5. Why would I bother shelling out another who knows how many thousand dollars, when it's going to do nothing for me but delay when I can get married and start a family and push me into a [much higher] tax bracket?

We'd need omniscience before we could decide whether the benefit to the honest, hard working people would outweigh the abuses. What's to keep people from taking out a huge loan on year 5 and not paying it back?

 

[Craig234]

Why is it that the righties are so predictably missing in action on any actually informative info?

They are so ideological that they prefer to go off and sing Putin's praises when he throws them a bone to their ifrology, than to pay attention to the important issues.

Originally posted by: Slew Foot
The foxes have been guarding the henhouse for a while. Every now and then theyll toss you an egg, but theyll demand it back when they run out of meat.

It comes down to who they are representing. The foxes can run the henhouses for their own interests, or they can use their skills to run it in the public interest.

One of the many harms caused by the anti-government ideology is the destructin of a group of people experienced at governing in the public interest; it leaves people painted in a corner where the only people with strong skills in an area are the ones who have backgrounds profiting in that area, not representing the public.

When FDR wanted to curb the abuses of Wall Street, he recruited the public service-minded Joseph Kennedy to be the first head of the SEC. Are there still such people?

It comes down to finding people who will serve the public interest - something that starts at the top, and which was sorely lacking in the 'selected' president George W. Bush, who was put in power by the very interests who know how to get their guy in power, who could fool millions of American voters.

Is Obama going to be on the other side, or just the Democratic version? The jury is out, though there's reason to be more hopeful than with Bush, who didn't even pay lip service.

 

[JMapleton]

Originally posted by: Zebo
We have to redefine terms of debate to get everyone invested in our nation and not at mercy of 1%ers all the time. I am am not smart enough to do it but one way from a economic perpective, no idea how to get powers that be to abide by such an arrangement, is everyone just keeps what's in their possession, take ownership - from a section 8 project to a farm house in Iowa it's all their's now and we start fresh. The empty assets go by auction. All new national bank, all new currency, giving every adult $100,000 and start over over again for trading and afore mentioned auctions. Old Securities bonds paper leans notes, etc are now worthless..


What's a banking thread without Jews?... JK😛

The Jews did this very thing every 7 years for hundreds of years of their existence to prevent what we got now. It works.

You're out of your mind. While I am a free market supporter, the only I only believe there should be a large estate tax for the wealthy only, at least 75% on estates over $5 million with no loopholes.

But to take wealth from people who earned it and give it to joe six pack is ridiculous and unethical. Average people don't have money or wealth these days because they sit on their butt and watch football, and wealthy handle their business and build wealth.

 

[heyheybooboo]

""" ... Being nice to the banks is a big mistake ... """

Amen, Brother.

 

[miketheidiot]

where did this myth come from that rich peopel work hard and poor people don't? Based on what i've seen, 'poor people' jobs are a hell of alot more work then 'rich' jobs.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Craig234
One of the many harms caused by the anti-government ideology is the destructin of a group of people experienced at governing in the public interest; it leaves people painted in a corner where the only people with strong skills in an area are the ones who have backgrounds profiting in that area, not representing the public.

Oh give me a fucking break.

If one wants to help people, one do can do it outside of government. And plenty of them do, and do it well.

Besides, no "anti-government" types have had any political power anyway. Both parties have increased the size of government more so than most people imagine.

 

[JMapleton]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
where did this myth come from that rich peopel work hard and poor people don't? Based on what i've seen, 'poor people' jobs are a hell of alot more work then 'rich' jobs.

Physical labor is not hard, I've done it. Mental work is the most difficult of all.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
where did this myth come from that rich peopel work hard and poor people don't? Based on what i've seen, 'poor people' jobs are a hell of alot more work then 'rich' jobs.

You don't get paid for how much 'work' you do.

You get paid based on the amount of revenue you bring in or control.

A guy mowing lawns has very little effect on the bottom line.

The sales person opening up new accounts and finding new lawns to mow has a much bigger effect.

The guy in charge of all the sales people has an ever bigger effect.

And the guy in charge of the whole operation has an even bigger effect.

The guy at the top could certainly do the job of the guy at the bottom, but the guy at the bottom would most likely fail big time if he tried to run the whole company.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
where did this myth come from that rich peopel work hard and poor people don't? Based on what i've seen, 'poor people' jobs are a hell of alot more work then 'rich' jobs.

You don't get paid for how much 'work' you do.

You get paid based on the amount of revenue you bring in or control.

A guy mowing lawns has very little effect on the bottom line.

The sales person opening up new accounts and finding new lawns to mow has a much bigger effect.

The guy in charge of all the sales people has an ever bigger effect.

And the guy in charge of the whole operation has an even bigger effect.

The guy at the top could certainly do the job of the guy at the bottom, but the guy at the bottom would most likely fail big time if he tried to run the whole company.

What exactly do think the guys at the top have been doing? The guy mowing lawns could have brought down the financial industry for $5/hr.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: JMapleton

Originally posted by: Zebo
We have to redefine terms of debate to get everyone invested in our nation and not at mercy of 1%ers all the time. I am am not smart enough to do it but one way from a economic perpective, no idea how to get powers that be to abide by such an arrangement, is everyone just keeps what's in their possession, take ownership - from a section 8 project to a farm house in Iowa it's all their's now and we start fresh. The empty assets go by auction. All new national bank, all new currency, giving every adult $100,000 and start over over again for trading and afore mentioned auctions. Old Securities bonds paper leans notes, etc are now worthless..


What's a banking thread without Jews?... JK😛

The Jews did this very thing every 7 years for hundreds of years of their existence to prevent what we got now. It works.

You're out of your mind. While I am a free market supporter, the only I only believe there should be a large estate tax for the wealthy only, at least 75% on estates over $5 million with no loopholes.

But to take wealth from people who earned it and give it to joe six pack is ridiculous and unethical. Average people don't have money or wealth these days because they sit on their butt and watch football, and wealthy handle their business and build wealth.

I would not even have taxes till you hit a million. i.e. leisure class or super rich.

Question - What to do about your inheritance tax which a Johnson heir (J&J), who has his stock in a secret Bahamian bank, who pays no capital gains on stock sales nor income tax on dividends since his 'corp' is 'foreign' let alone inheritance which shares are passed to heir out of IRS reach?

These are the people I'm talking about - not your small business owners or Doctors - who are working too fuckin hard for the former and the government to get out of excessive taxation (which they are today IMO)

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
where did this myth come from that rich peopel work hard and poor people don't? Based on what i've seen, 'poor people' jobs are a hell of alot more work then 'rich' jobs.

If you work hard you will be Rewarded. The Rewarded Worked Hard.

Or so the circular mind migh think.

 

[Zebo]

Yeah it's 1/2 bull - I used to work hard came from middle class had to, but as I fostered secondary and tertiary income streams, well I'm good for about 2 hrs a day now then it's time to go to the lake, jog or something.

My dad always told us "pay now or pay later, but you will pay" usually when looking at a 50 year old bagger or something - with the inherent meaning you work your ass off young, save, invest and you won't have to be a wage slave later. I owe everything to him really taught us so much about business and life you might say intellectual inheritance.

 

[TallBill]

Heh, he's really careful about his wording. Keeps tossing in "in my opinion". Well played by Mr. Johnson.

So what does anyone think about a grand scale FDIC intervention that splits these unsuccessful banks up once they ask for more money?

 

[soccerballtux]

Originally posted by: JMapleton

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
where did this myth come from that rich peopel work hard and poor people don't? Based on what i've seen, 'poor people' jobs are a hell of alot more work then 'rich' jobs.

Physical labor is not hard, I've done it. Mental work is the most difficult of all.

I disagree, I've done it too. Struggling through fourier analysis and image processing is at least mentally stimulating; digging trenches for landscaping is anything but.

 

[JMapleton]

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: JMapleton

Originally posted by: Zebo
We have to redefine terms of debate to get everyone invested in our nation and not at mercy of 1%ers all the time. I am am not smart enough to do it but one way from a economic perpective, no idea how to get powers that be to abide by such an arrangement, is everyone just keeps what's in their possession, take ownership - from a section 8 project to a farm house in Iowa it's all their's now and we start fresh. The empty assets go by auction. All new national bank, all new currency, giving every adult $100,000 and start over over again for trading and afore mentioned auctions. Old Securities bonds paper leans notes, etc are now worthless..


What's a banking thread without Jews?... JK😛

The Jews did this very thing every 7 years for hundreds of years of their existence to prevent what we got now. It works.

You're out of your mind. While I am a free market supporter, the only I only believe there should be a large estate tax for the wealthy only, at least 75% on estates over $5 million with no loopholes.

But to take wealth from people who earned it and give it to joe six pack is ridiculous and unethical. Average people don't have money or wealth these days because they sit on their butt and watch football, and wealthy handle their business and build wealth.

I would not even have taxes till you hit a million. i.e. leisure class or super rich.

Question - What to do about your inheritance tax which a Johnson heir (J&J), who has his stock in a secret Bahamian bank, who pays no capital gains on stock sales nor income tax on dividends since his 'corp' is 'foreign' let alone inheritance which shares are passed to heir out of IRS reach?

These are the people I'm talking about - not your small business owners or Doctors - who are working too fuckin hard for the former and the government to get out of excessive taxation (which they are today IMO)

Very few wealthy people hide their money offshore because these days it's nearly impossible to do it and get away with it. You cannot even hide your money in Switzerland anymore without them reporting it to the irs, I've looked into it.

As far as stock holdings, it's very simple to figure out who owns what. If Forbes magazine can figureout ownership of companies and inheritances so can the us government. The government could also do an audit of every publically traded company and require lists of shareholders and simply follow the money. Sort of an invasion of privacy, but it woudl work.

 

[Wheezer]

Originally posted by: JMapleton

Originally posted by: miketheidiot
where did this myth come from that rich peopel work hard and poor people don't? Based on what i've seen, 'poor people' jobs are a hell of alot more work then 'rich' jobs.

Physical labor is not hard, I've done it. Mental work is the most difficult of all.

Really?......go bail hay on a hot summer day for 10-12 hours and when your balls are hanging down to your ankles come back and tell me again how physical labor is not hard.

 

[gingermeggs]

Originally posted by: Craig234
Why is it that the righties are so predictably missing in action on any actually informative info?

Is Obama going to be on the other side, or just the Democratic version? The jury is out, though there's reason to be more hopeful than with Bush, who didn't even pay lip service.

Obama had his Rupert Murdoch interview before pre-selection, he is just the democratic version of the same as the last.
Until people wizen up, round up and physical kill these power drunk slave-masters nothing will change. It's proof in itself that terrorism is a sham, If you where serious about changing the direction of the new world order, you would make a list of the individuals whom hold the financial power over governments and hunt every last one of them into the dirt! and their offspring every man woman and child related to these nepotists.
bin laden would be dead now if he wasn't on the books.
Anyone whom is a threat to this order is either paid off or bumped off. No laws stand in the way of the means and ends of these people, they see themselves as untouchables and above the dumb masses.
Their aim is to stop people from getting out of the gravity of debt and independent localized existence. Money earned by working will never get one into a position of being able to say "no", If people only realized that all they really needed to do always was to say no to consumerism and vote with their dollars.
You see law and bureaucracy all shaped around rubbing out anti-consumerist behaviour, anything that doesn't cost you to participate in, have a law wacked on it and insurance costs- Public liability etc- they rubbed out real culture and replaced it with apathetic, drug addicted, consumer culture of instant gratification, self indulgent turds, whom blow the bucks faster then they earn them. They divided and conquered, now they are losing the plot raiding the public purse. Sometimes you need a dictator, like you need a plumber when the toilets blocked, pity about "good" dictators is they die young and bad ones die old!
Nothing really changes.

 

[gingermeggs]

Originally posted by: JMapleton

Originally posted by: Zebo

Originally posted by: JMapleton

Originally posted by: Zebo
We have to redefine terms of debate to get everyone invested in our nation and not at mercy of 1%ers all the time. I am am not smart enough to do it but one way from a economic perpective, no idea how to get powers that be to abide by such an arrangement, is everyone just keeps what's in their possession, take ownership - from a section 8 project to a farm house in Iowa it's all their's now and we start fresh. The empty assets go by auction. All new national bank, all new currency, giving every adult $100,000 and start over over again for trading and afore mentioned auctions. Old Securities bonds paper leans notes, etc are now worthless..


What's a banking thread without Jews?... JK😛

The Jews did this very thing every 7 years for hundreds of years of their existence to prevent what we got now. It works.

You're out of your mind. While I am a free market supporter, the only I only believe there should be a large estate tax for the wealthy only, at least 75% on estates over $5 million with no loopholes.

But to take wealth from people who earned it and give it to joe six pack is ridiculous and unethical. Average people don't have money or wealth these days because they sit on their butt and watch football, and wealthy handle their business and build wealth.

I would not even have taxes till you hit a million. i.e. leisure class or super rich.

Question - What to do about your inheritance tax which a Johnson heir (J&J), who has his stock in a secret Bahamian bank, who pays no capital gains on stock sales nor income tax on dividends since his 'corp' is 'foreign' let alone inheritance which shares are passed to heir out of IRS reach?

These are the people I'm talking about - not your small business owners or Doctors - who are working too fuckin hard for the former and the government to get out of excessive taxation (which they are today IMO)

Very few wealthy people hide their money offshore because these days it's nearly impossible to do it and get away with it. You cannot even hide your money in Switzerland anymore without them reporting it to the irs, I've looked into it.

As far as stock holdings, it's very simple to figure out who owns what. If Forbes magazine can figureout ownership of companies and inheritances so can the us government. The government could also do an audit of every publically traded company and require lists of shareholders and simply follow the money. Sort of an invasion of privacy, but it woudl work.

Yes they could do that audit....but they won't, because the government official'dom is all on the take!