A Sensible Approach to Reducing Gun Violence

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
I’ve been asked by a number of people to lay out my own suggestions for how to deal with the gun violence problem in the United States. After much consideration, here they are. They include original ideas of my own, as well as ideas and suggestions culled from many hours of research and discussion.

A few caveats before we begin. First, I’m not a lawyer or a constitutional scholar, just an opinionated layman, so I’m sure some of these suggestions are probably infeasible or unrealistic. Second, I want to say in advance that while I am in favor of reducing gun violence, this does not represent any sort of an endorsement on my part of the premise put forward by some that gun violence is increasing or becoming an “epidemic” of some sort, based on high-profile mass shooting events. Third, the absence of any provision or idea on this list may or may not indicate that I don’t support it.

For greater clarify, I’ve divided my recommendations into three sections: firearms, gunowners and society. They are not listed in any particular order.


Firearms

F1. Make illegal all weapons, weapon systems and devices that enable “bump firing” of semi-automatic rifles that use a loophole to allow them to operate in a fully automatic mode despite not being covered by the restrictions of the National Firearms Act.

F2. Impose a magazine capacity limit, which should be somewhere in the range of 20 to 30 cartridges. Guns with 100-cartridge magazines are unnecessary and make it difficult to take down a criminal intent on mayhem. Conversely, many firearms are designed with magazines with more than 10 cartridges as standard equipment; a 10-cartridge magazine is not “high capacity”.

F3. Eliminate all laws that prohibit specific firearms of any general legally-allowed class based on manufacturer names or model numbers, or hand-picked “features”, until and unless specific evidence can be provided to show that the weapons covered under these provisions are responsible for a disproportionate amount of violence.

F4. Research and implement features that improve the traceability of firearms and spent ammunition without impeding their effectiveness.


Gunowners

G1. Eliminate the “gun show loophole”, which is really more accurately called the “private sales loophole”. Any transfers of firearms should require the same background check that an FFL must carry out. An exemption could be made for transfers between immediate family members.

G2. Institute mandatory safety and handling training as a condition of firearm ownership. Training should be provided by the government, paid for by a tax on firearms and/or ammunition. Periodic recertification, such as every three years, should be required. Federal oversight should be instituted to prevent abuses of the system, such as allowing people to skip the training, or using the requirement as an excuse to make gun ownership difficult or impossible.

G3. Institute additional training and safety requirements for concealed carry.

G4. Impose a loss of the right to use firearms for any alcohol- or drug-related conviction that would result in the suspension of a driving license.

G5. Pass legislation prohibiting the publication of any personal information about gun owners as a result of adherence to the background check or training provisions.

G6. Prohibit gun ownership by those with serious mental health issues. (I realize this is particularly swampy ground, and the devil would be in the details, but something must be done in this area.)

G7. Require gunowners who live with juveniles to keep all firearms locked up or out of reach. Hold them criminally responsible for violence committed by such juveniles unless they can show that a reasonable effort was made to avoid access that the juvenile was able to circumvent.

G8. Mandate that gunowners report all thefts of firearms, and that law enforcement officials take such reports seriously (you’d be surprised.)


Society

S1. Implement mandatory basic firearm awareness safety training in all elementary schools, explaining the basic dangers of firearms, what to do when a child encounters one, and what not to do.

S2. Increase training for teachers, day school providers, health care workers and others in places that experience a disproportionate number of mass shootings on how to deal with these attacks.

S3. Taken directly from President Obama: “Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.” Increase education about how to handle firearms in the same way that we encourage responsibility when it comes to drinking or handling babies.

S4. Implement fair market gun and ammunition buyback programs to allow those who no longer want to own firearms or ammo an alternative to selling them on the open market.

S5. End the “War on Certain Types of Drugs”, which is responsible for a large proportion of gun violence, and takes up space in detention facilities that would be better used for violent offenders.

S6. Impose mandatory reporting by mental health professionals of patients who pose a risk to themselves or others, and confiscation of firearms from these individuals until the threat has passed. To prevent abuse, this should require a court order.

S7. Severely restrict the acceptability of “stand your ground” laws outside the home, where they appear to be an open invitation to abuse and unprovable self-defense claims. Institute limitations on the ability of criminals who invade homes to sue homeowners who defend themselves.

S8. Substantially increase funding for studies of mental health and suicide prevention. Increase in-paitent and out-patient facilities where necessary.

S9. Devote significantly more resources to anti-gang campaigns. Education, counselling, facilities. Much of our gun violence is in the inner cities.

S10. Pass laws mandating maximum response times for emergency calls (under normal circumstances) in all areas where personal protection firearms are either prohibited or for which it is extremely difficult to obtain permits. If individuals are not allowed to protect themselves, the police must be made accountable for doing so.

S11. Toughen sentences for offenders who use guns in violent crime. Severaly stiffen requirements for early release of violent convicts.

S12. Increase funding to combat illegal weapon trafficking into the United States.

Re-opened at request of OP.

Perknose
Forum Director
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
The private sales loophole I support being closed. Otherwise I am not sure how the rest of your points reduces gun violence. Either a person is going to use a gun in a violent manner or they arent. A law means nothing to them. And safety classes wont do squat.

I think your society section has a lot of valid points. But I dont like your stand your ground change. People defending themselves shouldnt have to think is defending my life legal?
Also stand your ground isnt being used in a lot of cases to justify murder. I can only think of one high profile stand your ground case in this country right now. It is used hundreds maybe thousands of times a year and rarely is it controversial.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
These all make sense but the NRA and their supporters believe these types of common sense restrictions are unconstitutional restrictions on the right to bear arms.
 

WackyDan

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2004
4,794
68
91
Bump firing does not make a semi-auto fire in automatic mode. Nor has there been any indication or report that a firearm with one of those devices has been used to perpetuate a crime or mass shooting. Have you ever fired one? Not very useful... fun yes, but not practical. My experience is when you take one of those things and use it on a firearm you get jams. Jammed my MAC-11, Jammed my AR-15. About the only thing it didn't jam between my firearms and my friend's firearms was the AK.

So what is your point other than being part of the problem with that suggestion?

NO to federalization... The reasons should be obvious as to why any training and so forth be done at no higher than the state level.

Buy back program? Have had one for years... It's called visiting your local gun dealer and having them make you an offer on your used firearm. - no different than what we do when we trade up our cars. I don't know of any area that doesn't have a dealer that specializes in used firearms. You are going to lose money. The gov't need not be involved in this type of program.

If you want to resolve many of the gun issues today, you have some good ideas, but until you allow the police and the feds to go into the inner city and bust heads, you are not going to get much of anywhere... See link below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooa98FHuaU0
 

nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
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G8. Mandate that gunowners report all thefts of firearms, and that law enforcement officials take such reports seriously (you’d be surprised.)

Does this actually accomplish anything? I would think that due to the easy access of firearms and shear volume of firearms available that if a criminal really wants to get gun he is not going to have to resort to stealing it.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
LOL! Bump firing...really? That list is like the gun grabbers wet dream. NO, NO COMPROMISE.

You lost all credibility with that right there, everything else can be discarded because you clearly have zero clue about what you're talking about.
 
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nehalem256

Lifer
Apr 13, 2012
15,669
8
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S4. Implement fair market gun and ammunition buyback programs to allow those who no longer want to own firearms or ammo an alternative to selling them on the open market.

I don't see what this is suppose to practically accomplish. Are there large numbers of gun owners who want to get rid of their firearms and ammo? In fact isn't the opposite true with near record numbers of gun and ammo sales recently.

How will this make us safer?

S5. End the “War on Certain Types of Drugs”, which is responsible for a large proportion of gun violence, and takes up space in detention facilities that would be better used for violent offenders.

S9. Devote significantly more resources to anti-gang campaigns. Education, counselling, facilities. Much of our gun violence is in the inner cities.

S12. Increase funding to combat illegal weapon trafficking into the United States.

How will this prevent a future mass shooting? It seems that gangs shoot each other.

I am not aware of a gang going into a shopping mall and shooting up the place.

S7. Severely restrict the acceptability of “stand your ground” laws outside the home, where they appear to be an open invitation to abuse and unprovable self-defense claims. Institute limitations on the ability of criminals who invade homes to sue homeowners who defend themselves.

If you invade someone's house and get shot you should have zero ability to sue the homeowner.

S8. Substantially increase funding for studies of mental health and suicide prevention. Increase in-paitent and out-patient facilities where necessary.

While suicide prevention may be a laudable goal I do not really see it being tied to reducing gun violence.

It seems this is similar to the gang problem. What people really want is to prevent violence against other innocent people.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
1
0
You lost all credibility with that right there, everything else can be discarded because you clearly have zero clue about what you're talking about.

The thread title has the word "sensible" in it. That means it was not directed at people like you.

Bump firing does not make a semi-auto fire in automatic mode. Nor has there been any indication or report that a firearm with one of those devices has been used to perpetuate a crime or mass shooting. Have you ever fired one? Not very useful... fun yes, but not practical. My experience is when you take one of those things and use it on a firearm you get jams. Jammed my MAC-11, Jammed my AR-15. About the only thing it didn't jam between my firearms and my friend's firearms was the AK.

So what is your point other than being part of the problem with that suggestion?

My point is that either we have special laws for weapons capable of fully automatic firing, or we don't. A device that allows a semi-auto to operate in a way that is in effect fully auto is a loophole that should be closed. Either that, or get rid of the restrictions on full auto entirely.

Watch this, and then tell me how that is functionally different from full auto?
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
F1. Make illegal all weapons, weapon systems and devices that enable “bump firing” of semi-automatic rifles that use a loophole to allow them to operate in a fully automatic mode despite not being covered by the restrictions of the National Firearms Act.
Must be because of all those bump-fire massacres I've been hearing about. Crappy proposal #1.

F2. Impose a magazine capacity limit, which should be somewhere in the range of 20 to 30 cartridges. Guns with 100-cartridge magazines are unnecessary and make it difficult to take down a criminal intent on mayhem. Conversely, many firearms are designed with magazines with more than 10 cartridges as standard equipment; a 10-cartridge magazine is not “high capacity”.
Despite the DOJ finding a dubious, almost non-existent connection between magazine capacity and gun crime. A overwhelming majority of gun crime is committed using handguns with less than 10 total shots being fired. Crappy proposal #2.

G2. Institute mandatory safety and handling training as a condition of firearm ownership. Training should be provided by the government, paid for by a tax on firearms and/or ammunition. Periodic recertification, such as every three years, should be required. Federal oversight should be instituted to prevent abuses of the system, such as allowing people to skip the training, or using the requirement as an excuse to make gun ownership difficult or impossible.
Just another hoop for legal gun owners to jump though, which isn't going to affect gun crime rates whatsoever. Crappy proposal #3.

G3. Institute additional training and safety requirements for concealed carry.
Already exists in my state. No need for Federal legislation concerning this, unless the Feds are ready to issue national concealed carry permits (which they are not). Neither crappy nor uncrappy proposal #4.

G4. Impose a loss of the right to use firearms for any alcohol- or drug-related conviction that would result in the suspension of a driving license.
So a little bad luck at a DUI checkpoint, or an eight of marijuana in your glovebox (which is becoming legal in more states every year) is enough to disqualify you from being able to protect yourself or your loved ones? Crappy proposal #5.

G8. Mandate that gunowners report all thefts of firearms, and that law enforcement officials take such reports seriously (you’d be surprised.)
I'll report all of them stolen the day they enact mandatory registration like they just did in NY ;)

S1. Implement mandatory basic firearm awareness safety training in all elementary schools, explaining the basic dangers of firearms, what to do when a child encounters one, and what not to do.
The NRA has been doing this for decades on a voluntary basis. I'm sure they would be happy to receive some Federal funding for their community activities.

S4. Implement fair market gun and ammunition buyback programs to allow those who no longer want to own firearms or ammo an alternative to selling them on the open market.
Like "cash for clunkers", I fully support and will fully take advantage of any government buyback. The second they announce this type of program is the second I'll be buying up every Hi-Point in a 100 mile radius.

S10. Pass laws mandating maximum response times for emergency calls (under normal circumstances) in all areas where personal protection firearms are either prohibited or for which it is extremely difficult to obtain permits. If individuals are not allowed to protect themselves, the police must be made accountable for doing so.
Governments at the state or Federal level will never enact a law that would open them up to such a massive liability like this one. This proposal is interesting, but DOA.

Just extricate the crap and you'll have more law-abiding, fact-driven citizens on your side.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
a couple of comments about responses you've gotten.

buy back program- not the same as selling a gun to a dealer. The purpose of a buy back program is to get rid of the gun, not to put it back on the market.

suicide- suicide by gun is gun violence. there's also an apparent link between many of the mass killings and suicide.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Using suicide in gun violence numbers is disingenuous. These people took their own lives with a weapon. They choose to use a gun to take their own life. Violence wasnt thrusted onto them.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I have a suggestion. Make all men serve a few months in a military training program. All able bodied men should be taught basice military training and discipline including handling firearms and some physical exercise. This may or may not include a live-in boot camp. It will promote citizenship, patriotism and an appreciation for the military. It will also make people appreciate the freedom we enjoy everyday.

Some countries like Italy and South Korea have introduced this as a way to train men to be able to defend their country and return them back to society. This way in case of an emergency civilians are prepared to defend their country.
 
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Apr 27, 2012
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G5. Pass legislation prohibiting the publication of any personal information about gun owners as a result of adherence to the background check or training provisions.

Agree on this but most of this information really shouldn't even be kept by the government. There is always going to be some idiot bureaucrat who takes matters into his own hands and decides to leak the information

G6. Prohibit gun ownership by those with serious mental health issues. (I realize this is particularly swampy ground, and the devil would be in the details, but something must be done in this area.)

I agree on this one, Mentally ill people should not be owning guns. As well if they are a danger to themselves and others then they must be locked up.

G7. Require gunowners who live with juveniles to keep all firearms locked up or out of reach. Hold them criminally responsible for violence committed by such juveniles unless they can show that a reasonable effort was made to avoid access that the juvenile was able to circumvent.

Agreed, They must be responsible with their firearms especially due to the conditions they are living in. They definitely have to be held accountable for violence committed by them

S5. End the “War on Certain Types of Drugs”, which is responsible for a large proportion of gun violence, and takes up space in detention facilities that would be better used for violent offenders.

End the War On Drugs, I have been saying this all along and if we did then we would see a big drop in crime and save the taxpayers a lot of money. The war on drugs is one of the biggest examples of the failure of big government and it must be ended.

S11. Toughen sentences for offenders who use guns in violent crime. Severaly stiffen requirements for early release of violent convicts.

I have been saying this for a long time but the problem is too many special interest groups who oppose this. The same people who support gun control are some of the same ones who want lesser sentences.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Firearms

F1. Make illegal all weapons, weapon systems and devices that enable “bump firing” of semi-automatic rifles that use a loophole to allow them to operate in a fully automatic mode despite not being covered by the restrictions of the National Firearms Act.

...why? Bump firing is retarded, and no one use it in a crime, also the fact that you'd pretty much have to ban most modern guns.

F2. Impose a magazine capacity limit, which should be somewhere in the range of 20 to 30 cartridges. Guns with 100-cartridge magazines are unnecessary and make it difficult to take down a criminal intent on mayhem. Conversely, many firearms are designed with magazines with more than 10 cartridges as standard equipment; a 10-cartridge magazine is not “high capacity”.

I don't see a problem with this, but again I'd have to ask ...why? Just FYI most AK drums are actually only 75 round, but that's besides the point, the 100 round mags are generally not nearly as reliable as a solid 30 round, and I can only think of one or two times they have even been used in a mass shooting, the LA bank robberies for one.

F3. Eliminate all laws that prohibit specific firearms of any general legally-allowed class based on manufacturer names or model numbers, or hand-picked “features”, until and unless specific evidence can be provided to show that the weapons covered under these provisions are responsible for a disproportionate amount of violence.

If you are including machine guns, suppressors, short barreled rifles, and shotguns in this than cool, I support that.

F4. Research and implement features that improve the traceability of firearms and spent ammunition without impeding their effectiveness.


Gunowners
G1. Eliminate the “gun show loophole”, which is really more accurately called the “private sales loophole”. Any transfers of firearms should require the same background check that an FFL must carry out. An exemption could be made for transfers between immediate family members.

The problem here is that non FFL holders don't have access to NICS, and giving them access to NICS would be chaos, and an overload on the system. Also, I don't see this as having any effect on illegal gun sales, it's not like gang bangers really care about the law.

G2. Institute mandatory safety and handling training as a condition of firearm ownership. Training should be provided by the government, paid for by a tax on firearms and/or ammunition. Periodic recertification, such as every three years, should be required. Federal oversight should be instituted to prevent abuses of the system, such as allowing people to skip the training, or using the requirement as an excuse to make gun ownership difficult or impossible.

What about the millions of current gun owners?

G3. Institute additional training and safety requirements for concealed carry.

Kind of redundant, since they already do.

G4. Impose a loss of the right to use firearms for any alcohol- or drug-related conviction that would result in the suspension of a driving license.

I have issue tying a right to a privileged.

G5. Pass legislation prohibiting the publication of any personal information about gun owners as a result of adherence to the background check or training provisions.

No problems with this.

G6. Prohibit gun ownership by those with serious mental health issues. (I realize this is particularly swampy ground, and the devil would be in the details, but something must be done in this area.)

The devil is indeed in the details, as long as there is a system with sufficient controls, oversight, and an appeals process it should definitely be implemented.

G7. Require gunowners who live with juveniles to keep all firearms locked up or out of reach. Hold them criminally responsible for violence committed by such juveniles unless they can show that a reasonable effort was made to avoid access that the juvenile was able to circumvent.

As long as they have fast access to the firearm in case of a break-in.

G8. Mandate that gunowners report all thefts of firearms, and that law enforcement officials take such reports seriously (you’d be surprised.)

Pretty sure this is already law.


S1. Implement mandatory basic firearm awareness safety training in all elementary schools, explaining the basic dangers of firearms, what to do when a child encounters one, and what not to do.

S2. Increase training for teachers, day school providers, health care workers and others in places that experience a disproportionate number of mass shootings on how to deal with these attacks.

S3. Taken directly from President Obama: “Launch a national safe and responsible gun ownership campaign.” Increase education about how to handle firearms in the same way that we encourage responsibility when it comes to drinking or handling babies.

S4. Implement fair market gun and ammunition buyback programs to allow those who no longer want to own firearms or ammo an alternative to selling them on the open market.

S5. End the “War on Certain Types of Drugs”, which is responsible for a large proportion of gun violence, and takes up space in detention facilities that would be better used for violent offenders.

S6. Impose mandatory reporting by mental health professionals of patients who pose a risk to themselves or others, and confiscation of firearms from these individuals until the threat has passed. To prevent abuse, this should require a court order.

S8. Substantially increase funding for studies of mental health and suicide prevention. Increase in-paitent and out-patient facilities where necessary.

S9. Devote significantly more resources to anti-gang campaigns. Education, counselling, facilities. Much of our gun violence is in the inner cities.

S10. Pass laws mandating maximum response times for emergency calls (under normal circumstances) in all areas where personal protection firearms are either prohibited or for which it is extremely difficult to obtain permits. If individuals are not allowed to protect themselves, the police must be made accountable for doing so.

S11. Toughen sentences for offenders who use guns in violent crime. Severaly stiffen requirements for early release of violent convicts.

S12. Increase funding to combat illegal weapon trafficking into the United States.

I don't see any issue with these, but this one ...

S7. Severely restrict the acceptability of “stand your ground” laws outside the home, where they appear to be an open invitation to abuse and unprovable self-defense claims. Institute limitations on the ability of criminals who invade homes to sue homeowners who defend themselves.

People have a right to defend themselves where ever they are, your right to defend yourself doesn't end at your front door.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Using suicide in gun violence numbers is disingenuous. These people took their own lives with a weapon. They choose to use a gun to take their own life. Violence wasnt thrusted onto them.

In fairness the overall (successful) suicide rate would almost certainly be much lower if people didn't have access to guns (not that I advocate taking that access away). Most people who attempt suicide by means other than guns survive, whereas gun suicide victims are normally successful. Also the availability of guns makes it possible for suicide to essentially be a snap decision. I've always thought this was a lot of the reason police commit suicide relatively often - they always have a gun at their side, so a particularly tough moment (especially if alcohol is involved) can turn lethal.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
The thread title has the word "sensible" in it. That means it was not directed at people like you.



My point is that either we have special laws for weapons capable of fully automatic firing, or we don't. A device that allows a semi-auto to operate in a way that is in effect fully auto is a loophole that should be closed. Either that, or get rid of the restrictions on full auto entirely.

Watch this, and then tell me how that is functionally different from full auto?

It is still only firing one shot per pull of the trigger. It is completely irrelevant as bump firing isn't used in criminal activity. To base any kind of law on it is just beyond stupid.

Watch this one if you want to understand what you saw in the one you posted ...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnBAyOAiUIM
 
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Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
In fairness the overall (successful) suicide rate would almost certainly be much lower if people didn't have access to guns (not that I advocate taking that access away). Most people who attempt suicide by means other than guns survive, whereas gun suicide victims are normally successful. Also the availability of guns makes it possible for suicide to essentially be a snap decision. I've always thought this was a lot of the reason police commit suicide relatively often - they always have a gun at their side, so a particularly tough moment (especially if alcohol is involved) can turn lethal.

That may be about the lethality of the tool. But I dont consider somebody deciding to take their own life as them being a victim of gun violence. And i suspect most americans would also not consider it as well. No more than people consuming a pill, driving a car into a lake, or hanging themselves to be a victim of the associated tools violence.

That said isnt ones decision to take their own life on their own terms a left position? It is ok to fill your veins with a lethal cocktail but not plant a bullet in your brain?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
It is still only firing one shot per pull of the trigger. It is completely irrelevant as bump firing isn't used in criminal activity. To base any kind of law on it is just beyond stupid.

I would also add that while entertaining. I would question the accuracy of the weapon in that video. I have seen the promotional material for it and the weapon moves wildly while firing from the butt stock forward. The promotional material showed the accuracy of the rifle in full auto-mode by firing at a target about 3 feet in front of the shooter. That is a red flag to me that this is nothing more than entertainment.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
I think we need some kind of publicity campaign and more training in schools about how to handle stress and confrontation in a peaceful manner. Maybe we dont need all of this violence in movies and TV. Teaching the sanctity of life and respect for people and an abhorance for violence can be a good thing.

In approaching the use of guns a campaign against the use of guns can possibly teach people that life is sacred and maybe they should not choose to use and buy guns. I think we should consider removing firearms from our police. This makes police officers too scary. They should only use guns as a last resort. Use of a gun in public in the commission of a crime should carry a death sentence.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
F1. Make illegal all weapons, weapon systems and devices that enable “bump firing” of semi-automatic rifles that use a loophole to allow them to operate in a fully automatic mode despite not being covered by the restrictions of the National Firearms Act.
Thus making illegal a ton of popular, proven designs over the decades. Bumpboards may be fun, but they're not reliable, and are either non-existent or damn near it in crime.

F2. Impose a magazine capacity limit, which should be somewhere in the range of 20 to 30 cartridges. Guns with 100-cartridge magazines are unnecessary and make it difficult to take down a criminal intent on mayhem. Conversely, many firearms are designed with magazines with more than 10 cartridges as standard equipment; a 10-cartridge magazine is not “high capacity”.

F3. Eliminate all laws that prohibit specific firearms of any general legally-allowed class based on manufacturer names or model numbers, or hand-picked “features”, until and unless specific evidence can be provided to show that the weapons covered under these provisions are responsible for a disproportionate amount of violence.
How about rolling F2 and F3 together? Oh, wait, that would eliminate F2 and F1. Might as well just repeal the NFA and GCA, and do it all over again.

F4. Research and implement features that improve the traceability of firearms and spent ammunition without impeding their effectiveness.
There is no such thing, that is viable. Any technically viable method would make factory ammunition too costly, and would still be easy to circumvent, leaving you once again with expensive forensics as the only way to do it. A difficult method to circumvent simply does not exist.

I mostly agree with most of the G section, provided the War on Drugs were to be dismantled.
G7. Require gunowners who live with juveniles to keep all firearms locked up or out of reach. Hold them criminally responsible for violence committed by such juveniles unless they can show that a reasonable effort was made to avoid access that the juvenile was able to circumvent.
Juveniles can be just fine around firearms. Very young children should have them safely kept from them, but after that, they need education. A gun's danger is on the level of a power tool. Keeping a gun too secured from children means keeping it equally secured away from adults, which is the last thing you'd want for home defense (but, you can't trust a toddler, so for a few years, be prepared for more work). Keeping knowledge of the weapons from children is a recipe for their curiosity to get them injured or killed, and that would be entirely your fault as a parent.

And yes, there are middle of the road options, such as locking it every morning, and taking the key with you. Such situations would also be good arguments for using automatic pistols with magazine safeties as home defense weapons.

Also, in my search to fill in gaps in my own knowledge on firearms, laws, carriers, use, etc., it's almost impossible to not stumble upon cases of children successfully defending their homes. Responsible gun owners FTW.

S1. Implement mandatory basic firearm awareness safety training in all elementary schools, explaining the basic dangers of firearms, what to do when a child encounters one, and what not to do.
I'd be all for marksmanship electives, as well.

Oh, and while at it, what about crisis management? You could supersede a bunch of drills and crap by teaching people the right things to do in the general case, I would think, and it would be useful in more common situations, like car accidents and random medical emergencies.

S2. Increase training for teachers, day school providers, health care workers and others in places that experience a disproportionate number of mass shootings on how to deal with these attacks.
How about implementing strong doors that can be locked from the inside? Doors that are too hard to get into seem to work fairly well, though doors in general seem to be so-so. At the least, it would increase the time needed to inflict sufficient harm. Also, get rid of these areas as gun free zones. Gun free zones are targeted for obvious reasons.

S4. Implement fair market gun and ammunition buyback programs to allow those who no longer want to own firearms or ammo an alternative to selling them on the open market.
Greater than fair market value must be given, or it'll end up in the same boat as these always do, getting non-functioning weapons and stolen weapons. However, over fair market value will screw over your local gun market. Non-face-to-face sales of expensive personal items like guns still have a long way to go, as even people that more or less know what they want, don't know exactly what they should buy, unless they're gun geeks. I wouldn't want to screw over the local market like that; OTOH, offering fair value or less will not be very effective.

S5. End the “War on Certain Types of Drugs”, which is responsible for a large proportion of gun violence, and takes up space in detention facilities that would be better used for violent offenders.
:thumbsup: I would conditionally agree on G4, IFF this was done.

S6. Impose mandatory reporting by mental health professionals of patients who pose a risk to themselves or others, and confiscation of firearms from these individuals until the threat has passed. To prevent abuse, this should require a court order.
NO, NO, NO, and NO. Allow protected reporting, based on judgement, and put some mandatory legal weight behind it. Mandatory reporting will only serve to keep people from getting help, and/or encourage them to lie out of fear. If a M.D., or treating psychologist, seriously believes there is a danger, allow their reporting it to require some further, immediate, investigation or other action. But, don't force their hands. For short-term or potentially curable problems (drug addiction, depression brought on mostly by bad luck/bad coping skills), allow state seizure and holding of currently-owned firearms, and offer a provision for their sale while seized (they're still yours, after all, even while you can't access them), to licensed dealers.

S7. Severely restrict the acceptability of “stand your ground” laws outside the home, where they appear to be an open invitation to abuse and unprovable self-defense claims. Institute limitations on the ability of criminals who invade homes to use homeowners who defend themselves.
You're getting castle and SYG mixed up, methinks, or want to do away with SYG. SYG laws generally apply a financially expedient method to proclaim self-defense, in questionable cases. They exist more to counter the CSI effect, and money drain of unnecessary trials, than to allow murderers an out. In a sufficiently questionable case, such as the Trevon Martin case, it goes to trial anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irnD34P2l1w

S9. Devote significantly more resources to anti-gang campaigns. Education, counselling, facilities. Much of our gun violence is in the inner cities.
Also work on doing evil against the, "job creators." That is, provide legitimate opportunities, so that the economic incentives of organized crime are reduced or nullified. If that means taxing offshoring, fair trade, and reducing the tax burden on small businesses, I would grudgingly accept it :). No drug war, and improved incentives for local economic activity are a recipe for long-term epic win, IMO.

S10. Pass laws mandating maximum response times for emergency calls (under normal circumstances) in all areas where personal protection firearms are either prohibited or for which it is extremely difficult to obtain permits. If individuals are not allowed to protect themselves, the police must be made accountable for doing so.
Not going to happen. Reducing those restrictions are the only viable way to go. See Warren v. DC. The reality is that it is logistically impossible to make such guarantees.

S11. Toughen sentences for offenders who use guns in violent crime. Severaly stiffen requirements for early release of violent convicts.
Already done and being done.

S12. Increase funding to combat illegal weapon trafficking into the United States.
As long as that funding is going to agencies other than the BATF, I'm all for it. The BATF, OTOH, needs to be gutted as much as the DEA, and its responsibilities rolled into organizations with better track records. It has a track record of failure, corruption, and excessive deaths.

I have a suggestion. Make all men serve a few months in a military training program. All able bodied men should be taught basice military training and discipline including handling firearms and some physical exercise. This may or may not include a live-in boot camp. It will promote citizenship, patriotism and an appreciation for the military. It will also make people appreciate the freedom we enjoy everyday.

Some countries like Italy and South Korea have introduced this as a way to train men to be able to defend their country and return them back to society. This way in case of an emergency civilians are prepared to defend their country.
I have an even better suggestion: let's follow the constitution's requirement to not discriminate, and make it all able-bodied legal residents.
 
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That may be about the lethality of the tool. But I dont consider somebody deciding to take their own life as them being a victim of gun violence. And i suspect most americans would also not consider it as well. No more than people consuming a pill, driving a car into a lake, or hanging themselves to be a victim of the associated tools violence.

That said isnt ones decision to take their own life on their own terms a left position? It is ok to fill your veins with a lethal cocktail but not plant a bullet in your brain?

I would agree it's not a form of gun violence, but it is demonstrative, as you said, of the lethality of guns. I am not advocating increased gun control but I do think suicide numbers are germane to that discussion, because it is all but certain that if there were few or no guns in the public's possession there would be many fewer suicides.

The only mainstream discussion of assisted suicide I am aware of relates to people suffering from terminal or highly painful chronic illnesses. I have not heard of anyone on either side of the aisle advocating for the proposition that doctors should be assisting people's suicides just because they are depressed, got in a fight with their wife, or had a bad day at work. I am open to being corrected on this but I am unaware of any mainstream liberal political call for assisting people of sound body and mind in committing suicide.
 

Nintendesert

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Mar 28, 2010
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I would also add that while entertaining. I would question the accuracy of the weapon in that video. I have seen the promotional material for it and the weapon moves wildly while firing from the butt stock forward. The promotional material showed the accuracy of the rifle in full auto-mode by firing at a target about 3 feet in front of the shooter. That is a red flag to me that this is nothing more than entertainment.




You can look at YouTube and see what the bump firing does to say a Ruger 10/22. A weapon with very little recoil, but with these retarded bump stocks on them that gun is bouncing all over. Hell, make every semiautomatic have one of these and the only way someone dies is through sheer luck and by accident. These dumb bump stocks are completely worthless beyond wasting money on ammunition.
 

Charles Kozierok

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May 14, 2012
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Just to make clear, I appreciate all the responses, but please understand that I can't reply point by point to every response. The original already took a lot of time.

Since there seems to be a lot of objection to the provision regarding bump firing, I'll address that.

It is still only firing one shot per pull of the trigger.

You're not actually pulling the trigger for each shot, the stock is pulling it for you. That's called a loophole.

It is completely irrelevant as bump firing isn't used in criminal activity. To base any kind of law on it is just beyond stupid.

The basis for my recommendation is simple consistency in the law. Either something acts like a machine gun, or it doesn't. Semi-autos with those stocks act like machine guns.

Watch this one if you want to understand what you saw in the one you posted ...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnBAyOAiUIM

It's rare that I watch a video over 10 minutes long as part of a discussion.. just don't have the patience for it. But again, this issue is an interesting one, so I watched that.

Frankly, it supports my position a lot better than those of you who want to keep these items legal. The guy shows it is easy to use, and describes the item as "amazing" and "very controllable". He then suggests it as a less expensive alternative to an NFA gun.

Is that supposed to somehow argue against my position? :)

Also, obviously, if you're trying to mow down a crowd of people, you don't really need a lot of accuracy anyway.
 
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I would also add that while entertaining. I would question the accuracy of the weapon in that video. I have seen the promotional material for it and the weapon moves wildly while firing from the butt stock forward. The promotional material showed the accuracy of the rifle in full auto-mode by firing at a target about 3 feet in front of the shooter. That is a red flag to me that this is nothing more than entertainment.

The demo in this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnBAyOAiUIM - shows that it is actually pretty controllable and reasonably accurate. Honestly I had never heard of bump fire systems until reading about them in this thread. Whatever one thinks of the very tight restrictions on full auto weapons, there's no question this device functionally does the same thing, albeit through a very different mechanism.
 
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