A routine for me?

[Alone]

Because of my bad knees, I have to avoid doing squats, and power cleans are likely out of the question. These to exercises seem to be listed in most routines for beginners.

To be honest, when I go to the weight room, I usually end up doing random exercises that I've seen done before. No order, no consistency, and no knowledge on the subject. I'm likely wasting my time.

I don't even know where to start for # of sets and reps. Yesterday I did 3 sets/8 reps on the bench, but only with 120lbs (I never benched before).

I've been trying little variations in my diet as of late. Just started about a week or so ago. I stopped drinking 6 short glasses of chocolate milk per day, I stopped ordering pizza and getting fast food. I don't drink pop/cola/soda or eat deserts (yogurt instead). I don't eat many vegetables, but I'll try to work on that.

I'm about 5'11/170lbs.

I'm a complete beginner, where do I start?

 

[GenHoth]

If you haven't injured your knees or have something like arthritis then there is a good chance you can help your knees. Watching your posture and strengthening your stabilizing muscles can help. I have/had bad knees but squatting has helped them immensely. So IMHO don't write your knees and those exercises off so easily!

 

[brikis98]

What is actually wrong with your knees? Have you tried squatting? If so, are you sure you are using proper squat technique? When squats are done correctly - with the heels firmly on the ground, the back locked in extension, and the hip joint going below the knee joint ("below parallel") - they are actually known to significantly improve the health and strength of the knee joint. There is plenty of evidence that supports this if you google around. Also, Starting Strength discusses the safety and technique of the proper back squat and Stronglifts has a decent tutorial. It's certainly possible that your injury really does prevent you from squatting, but it may be worth trying some air squats (ie, just your body weight) with the correct technique to test it out. Also, I don't see how you could do much of anything if you can't do power cleans, given how little knee bend they actually require. Are you sure you know what a power clean is?

As for the routine, it depends on what your goals are. If you are trying to increase strength or gain muscle mass, the routines I'd recommend for a beginner are the one described in Starting Strength or the similar Stronglifts 5x5 routine. If your goal is to increase overall fitness - that is, not just strength, but speed, power, endurance, agility, etc as well - you could try Crossfit. It is worth noting that all of these are extremely reliant on the squat as it is one of the most important and effective exercises available and the basis for many movements (clean, thruster, snatch, etc). If you really can't squat, you can try those routines with some kind of substitute for squats, such as (weighted) lunges, (weighted) step-ups, high rep deadlifts, power cleans and power snatches.

 

[Alone]

Just to get that first question out of the way, I screwed up a couple ligaments in both knees, and they can't tolerate much right now (could barely run this morning).

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: Alone
Just to get that first question out of the way, I screwed up a couple ligaments in both knees, and they can't tolerate much right now (could barely run this morning).

Seems like you need to get a physical therapy routine from a clinic. Don't you think that would be the best place to start if you can barely run?

 

[Alone]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Seems like you need to get a physical therapy routine from a clinic. Don't you think that would be the best place to start if you can barely run?

I'm going to hit the base hospital Monday morning to get this problem looked into (again). But I'd like to have my own routine for upper body, recommended by lifters, not physiotherapists (unless my opinion of them is wrong).

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Seems like you need to get a physical therapy routine from a clinic. Don't you think that would be the best place to start if you can barely run?

I'm going to hit the base hospital Monday morning to get this problem looked into (again). But I'd like to have my own routine for upper body, recommended by lifters, not physiotherapists (unless my opinion of them is wrong).

Upper body will just be the standard - bench press, rows, pullups, shrugs, abwork, back extensions. Physiotherapists? Never quite heard that term, but I'm sure they're trained in things that you're not. You're gonna need to do some very light therapy at the beginning. You're gonna have to push through it to get anywhere, man.

 

[StageLeft]

If your knees are so bad you cannot squat, you've no business trying to run. A fairly good indicator that your knees are up to the daunting task of running is a hop test--hop a bunch of times and make sure no pain, and also a one-legged squat test. You don't need to go all the way down, but put a 90 degree bend in your knee and squat one leg at a time. You need to be able to pull off 20-30 of these without joint pain. Yes, there are exceptions, but if you cannot squat at all, of course running will suck.

I have a history of knee pain so I've read a good bit about it. You may benefit from squating, as mentinoed above, but forget the barbell and forget down-to-parallel. Try one legged squats for a while and never more than a 90 degree bend. These are all I do for my quads these days and a long standing bad knee is much better for it, plus my legs have never been this strong and defined. Always one-legged for me, to aid in balance and assist in trying to keep the movement pure (knee over big toe, for example).

You do need a PT, though. Some PTs suck, but not all do. I've come across a couple of good ones.

I will say it again, however; if you lack the strength or painlessness to do some kind of a squating motion, your knees are nowhere good enough to expect them to be able to run. Stick to cycling or swimming and a great deal of strengthing until they are up to the task. And, I do practice what I preach in this arena.

 

[bossman34]

I agree with some of the others that you should go see a physical therapist. They should be able to tell you what exactly you should and shouldn't do to help your knee and strengthen your legs.

As far as your routine...start light for the first month or so. There is no need to start with a 5x5 routine unless you want to hurt yourself. 3 sets of 12 for each exercise is a good place to start since it will help your endurance and give your muscles and connective tissues some time to adapt before moving to heavier weights. It will also allow you to learn proper form and technique. Starting Strength and other similar books are great in teaching form and help with routines, but don't start with a high weight/low rep routine.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: bossman34
I agree with some of the others that you should go see a physical therapist. They should be able to tell you what exactly you should and shouldn't do to help your knee and strengthen your legs.

As far as your routine...start light for the first month or so. There is no need to start with a 5x5 routine unless you want to hurt yourself. 3 sets of 12 for each exercise is a good place to start since it will help your endurance and give your muscles and connective tissues some time to adapt before moving to heavier weights. It will also allow you to learn proper form and technique. Starting Strength and other similar books are great in teaching form and help with routines, but don't start with a high weight/low rep routine.

This sounds a little ignorant to me. Why do you think a 5x5 routine automatically leads to injury? If this was true, then why are 5x5 routines so frequently recommended specifically for newbie lifters? Every respectable 5x5 routine starts beginners with the bare bar and works up gradually, providing plenty of time for the muscles and connective tissues to adapt. As long as good technique is maintained, there is no reason to just assume an injury will occur. In fact, sets of 5 may ensure the optimum balance: with lower reps, the weight is often heavy enough to make proper technique difficult and with higher reps, fatigue often causes form to breakdown as well. Somewhere in the middle, around 5 reps, may just be the safest range.

 

[bossman34]

A 5x5 routine typically requires you to use 85-90% of your 1 rep max which is a lot for somebody who is new to resistance training. Ok, so it doesn't automatically mean that you will be injured, but it definitely increases your chances. And who says that 5x5 routines are so frequently recommended for newbies? People in the forums? Just because it is recommended so often in the forums does not make it right. Read any accredited resistance training, personal training, or sports training book from ACSM, NSCA, and even NASM and you'll understand what I am talking about.

Muscle fatigue can set it at 5 reps just as easy as it can 12 reps so that argument doesn't work. A 5x5 routine is great for building strength, but before you jump to that you need to make sure that your neuromuscular, muscles, and connective tissue are ready for it. To build strength, you need muscle and the connective tissue to support it. To build muscle, reps in the 6-12 range are recommended.

I'm sorry if I made the whole injury comment seem so cut and dry because it isn't, but I would hardly say it's ignorant. Rippetoe is a very knowledgeable guy and has been around for awhile, but I think that some of his ideas are a little old school and aren't necessarily the best way to go. Just because it has worked for him and others doesn't mean it is the only way just like the 2-3 sets of 12 isn't the only way.

 

[Alone]

I have an appointment to have my knees looked at on Monday.

I went into the gym earlier this afternoon, with the intent on starting the 5x5 program. I gotta say: holy shit! The squats didn't bother my knees at all like they used to (must have been an isolated incident) and felt great. I started with 60lbs because I didn't know what I could handle. Definitely not enough. The inverted rows were awesome.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: bossman34
A 5x5 routine typically requires you to use 85-90% of your 1 rep max which is a lot for somebody who is new to resistance training.

Depending on the formula, a set that is truly a 5RM is going to be between 85-87% of your 1RM, but for beginners, this is inaccurate for two reasons:

1. If you are doing 5 sets of 5 reps, it's unlikely that you'll do all 5 sets with your actual 5RM, especially early on. To be able to get through all 5 sets, you'll typically have to use a weight that's a little lighter, or you'll fatigue too much by the time you get to the last few sets.
2. Most beginners are limited not just by strength, but technique too. This forces them to use still less weight than what their absolute strength would let them.

Originally posted by: bossman34
Ok, so it doesn't automatically mean that you will be injured, but it definitely increases your chances.

Do you have any proof of this?

Originally posted by: bossman34
And who says that 5x5 routines are so frequently recommended for newbies?

Most routines I've seen that are designed to increase strength - including SS, SL 5x5, and most o-lifting routines - are built around sets of low reps (~5). The only (good) routines I've seen recommending high reps are bodybuilding style routines which are focused on hyperotrophy. It probably is true that higher reps lead to more muscle mass, but this has nothing to do with the routine being safer. And even bodybuilding routines tend to include a lot of low rep training, especially for the big compound moves (for example, Max OT).

Originally posted by: bossman34
Read any accredited resistance training, personal training, or sports training book from ACSM, NSCA, and even NASM and you'll understand what I am talking about.

If you have links, I'll be happy to take a look. However, I tend to trust people who's entire livelihood revolves around training strong athletes. Just about every single endeavor where strength is the goal uses low reps and I've seen no evidence that the rate of injury is any higher.

Originally posted by: bossman34
Muscle fatigue can set it at 5 reps just as easy as it can 12 reps so that argument doesn't work.

There are many differences between low rep training and high rep training. For example, roughly speaking, the predominant energy system in low rep training is phosphagen, while high rep training - with sets lasting over ~15 seconds - is closer to being predominantely glycolytic. This will make a big difference in the "fatigue" you get from a lift. In my personal experience, because higher rep sets last so much longer, it's tough to force your muscles to keep proper form for the greater duration of time.

Originally posted by: bossman34
A 5x5 routine is great for building strength, but before you jump to that you need to make sure that your neuromuscular, muscles, and connective tissue are ready for it. To build strength, you need muscle and the connective tissue to support it. To build muscle, reps in the 6-12 range are recommended.

I disagree that more muscle mass - as you might get from doing more reps - is going to prepare you for heavier loads better than... working with heavier loads. Your body adapts specifically and exactly to the stimulus you present it with, so doing high rep training will only adapt your body to high rep training. If you want to prepare your muscles and connective tissues for heavy loads, then you have to use heavy loads. However, you don't just jump into it: you build it up gradually, as required by all good routines.

Originally posted by: bossman34
I'm sorry if I made the whole injury comment seem so cut and dry because it isn't, but I would hardly say it's ignorant. Rippetoe is a very knowledgeable guy and has been around for awhile, but I think that some of his ideas are a little old school and aren't necessarily the best way to go. Just because it has worked for him and others doesn't mean it is the only way just like the 2-3 sets of 12 isn't the only way.

I definitely agree that 5x5 isn't the only way. The number of sets/reps you do should be aligned with your goals. Roughly speaking:

* If your goal is strength, use lower reps (~4-6) and heavier weight
* If your goal is muscle size (hypertrophy), use medium reps (~8-12) and medium weights
* If your goal is muscular endurance, use high reps (15+) and low weights
* If your goal is general physical preparedness, constantly vary the number of reps in your workouts (ala Crossfit)

However, I'd say that whichever choice you pick, as long as you work your way up gradually and use proper form, the risk of injury is roughly equal.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Alone
I have an appointment to have my knees looked at on Monday.

I went into the gym earlier this afternoon, with the intent on starting the 5x5 program. I gotta say: holy shit! The squats didn't bother my knees at all like they used to (must have been an isolated incident) and felt great. I started with 60lbs because I didn't know what I could handle. Definitely not enough. The inverted rows were awesome.

Great to hear. Just work your way up gradually to ensure you don't (re) injure anything and make sure you use proper form. With knee injuries, it's especially important that you keep your feet flat on the floor (do NOT roll onto your toes) and that you are going below parallel (hip joint below knee joint when viewed from the side). Good luck!

 

[GenHoth]

:beer: Congrats!