- Oct 30, 2000
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Is Hamas the equivalent of the governement that had the "deaths of hundreds of civilians" on their watch?
And where, in the quoted post, did he do that? Anyone with even Forrest Gump's level of intelligence would read "the same staus (sic) quo that has failed to solve any Israeli problems for 61 out if 61 years of Israeli existence" as referring to their government's response and handling to its domestic and/or regional issues over the 61 years of its existence (1948 to 2009); not to the atrocities that happened in another continent in the preceding two decades.
It is you, not Lemon law, who brought the holocaust into this, in your attempt to paint anyone who dares criticize anything the Israeli government does and/or the concept of Zionism, as being "anti-semitic."
Is he anti-semitic? I haven't the foggiest idea, as I don't know much about him. But nothing in the sentence that you're using as the springboard for your accusations indicates as much.
- Oct 30, 2000
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Nope - I am coming at it from the over side ofthe fence.
However, we all may be bigots in one form or the other. To those that do not agree with ones viewpoint, the other must be a bigot.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
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Cumhail did you bother to read the replies in this very thread before opening your mouth and inserting your foot??
Usually in threads like this there are 2 forms of comments.
One concerning the aerticle and the other concerning what people are saying!
I was NOT the one who brought thye Holocost up in this thread!!
Had you read the thread, you would not have made such an ignorant comment!
Here let me refresh your memory --
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Lemon law
Originally posted by: bbdub333
So Obama spends the first several months of his administration coddling up to Israel's nearest enemies, refuses to speak to the Israeli people, and then expects them to bend to his every request?
Israeli's can see Obama's ignorance and naiveté (sp) and I am sure that it doesn't make them comfortable as a nation when he seems more concerned with his own image around the world than he does about the security of our closest ally in the middle-east.
But hey... thanks for another hyper-partisan viewpoint.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tanks for your endorsement if the current status quo, the same staus quo that has failed to solve any Israeli problems for 61 out if 61 years of Israeli existence.
Do you seriously think that Israeli military hegemony will last forever, and that Israel can afford to infinitely build and afford to build Arab hostility at the odds of 275 million to six million.
I will point out in Israel's some 4000 year history, they were great at dishing it out to the weak, but when they pissed off the strong powers, they really got dumped on.
And if Israel wants to stand in the way of a fair mid east peace, they are crusing for a bruising now.
Failed to solve the "Jewish problem" huh? Fucking anti-semite.
Using the holocaust for a cheap, dishonest political jab? Wow, that's even slightly worse than the usual.
You really should read the thread before making such an idiotic comment...unless you like being ignorant!!
I love how seeing a pro-Israel article (in the ultra-liberal NYTimes of all places! /gasp!) causes Lemon law to fly into an uncontrolled rage...a rage so great that he loses all power of grammar and spelling, eventually passing out on his keyboard with his head resting on the question mark key.
:roll:
:roll:
Ahh yes, his posts in this thread were such incoherent rants with spelling so bad we couldn't understand what he was saying...
Errr....wait, they weren't. I don't agree with LL's posts usually, but come on. At least attempt to add something to the discussion.
And on the op, I think that the problem is that for some reason people equate attacking isreal's policies with attacking the jews somehow and being a racist. And the two aren't necessarily the same.
This would be like saying iranian interests are muslim interests and thus if you attack iran's political system or their governments decision you are racist against persians or a bigot against muslims or something... it's like uhh..doesn't rly make sense.
- Nov 6, 2005
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I have to somewhat wonder where JEDIYoda comes up with, " Using the holocaust for a cheap, dishonest political jab? Wow, that's even slightly worse than the usual.
You really should read the thread before making such an idiotic comment...unless you like being ignorant!!"
I was not even remotely referring to the holocaust when I mentioned in Israel's 4000+ long history, they ran afoul of stronger power, and I was referring to the Babylonian Captivity, the equivalent Egyptian one, and of course pissing off Rome which resulted in the great dispersal as Rome exiled the Jewish people from Israel itself.
You really should read the thread before making such an idiotic comment...unless you like being ignorant!!"
I was not even remotely referring to the holocaust when I mentioned in Israel's 4000+ long history, they ran afoul of stronger power, and I was referring to the Babylonian Captivity, the equivalent Egyptian one, and of course pissing off Rome which resulted in the great dispersal as Rome exiled the Jewish people from Israel itself.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
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I was not talking to you....had you read my post instead of being reactionary you would see who used the word Holocaust first........
Once again thank you for coming out of the closet and letting us all know that you place 100% of the blame at the feet of Israel!!
- Nov 6, 2005
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Only on JEDIYoda's mind can he say, "Once again thank you for coming out of the closet and letting us all know that you place 100% of the blame at the feet of Israel!!"
At least Common Courtesy asks the more relevant questions, "Is a government responsible for the overall safety/welfare of its people?"
But I would also point out that latter question is a moving target, and can be asked on a short term or long terms basis.
Maybe Japan circa 1925-1945 is a classic example. When presented a classic once in thousand years opportunity to expand their powers when their neighbors were all weak and the European's were otherwise occupied, they brought unprecedented wealth to the Japanese people by looting Korea and China. And then when they saw an opportunity to take out the last watchdog in the USA, they planned a brilliant attack on Pearl Harbor that could have, if they got some of the US air craft carriers, allowed Japan to dominate the Pacific ocean for decades. As we know, the US carriers, were not in Pearl Harbor on 12/7/1941, then got US basically lucky in the battle of Midway, because one failed catapult did not allow a scout plane to be launched, and if the four carriers in the Japanese fleet had spotted the US carriers earlier, the outcome might have been far different. Two years and two months later, the battleship Missouri was anchored in Tokyo harbor receiving their surrender and if the US had not been willing to feed the Japanese people, most would have starved in a bombed out country.
Israel is a somewhat similar situation. IMHO, the 1948 UN decision to form the State of Israel was correct, and the surrounding Arab States were wrong. But the Palestinian people who were also settled in Israel at the time were more innocent victims than Arab co conspirators.
And in a better world, Israel could have treated them equally and instead opted to do the wrong thing. And still continues to do the wrong thing, which does not elevate the behavior of the surrounding Arab countries in any way, who are also wrong. Which sets up what amounts to a long term coming train wreck.
1. At a time when the surrounding Arab countries are willing to accept the existence of Israel, certainly evidenced by the Annapolis peace conference, Israel continues to mistreat the Palestinian people, and prevent the formation of a Palestinian state, the one thing that could make Israel a welcome addition to the mideast, by continuing to settle on the disputed land of the West bank.
2. At the same time, Israel has become a one trick pony, the military hegemony Israel needed in the early years, is now achieved in spades, but it has, IMHO, becomes an Israeli liability long term. Because unless Israel can make peace with its neighbors, building regional hatreds against Israel to impossibly high levels, is sustainable only if Israeli military hegemony lasts forever.
Meanwhile, various anti Israeli terrorist groups groups have been attacking Israel for 61 out of 61 years of its existence. And the more Israel tries to repress terrorism, the more terrorism they get. Worse yet, technology changes favor terrorists more than Israel.
As someone who favors a just and fair mid east peace, its easy to say both sides are wrong, but I think its will be a damn shame if Israeli stubbornness and an unwillingness to pursue a just peace finally results on all Israeli being pushed into the sea. 275 million to six million odds cannot prevail long term. And to answer the Common Courtesy question, if the Israeli government wants to be long term responsible to its people, they will have to do some serious changing, come to the peace table , and be willing to makes some serious concessions including the right to return. And the Arabs will have to make some serious concessions also. Or the anti sematism that Israel fears will become both a self fulfilling prophesy and something that Israel earns. And since the Palestinian people are a semantic people also, their unfair treatment cannot be ignored.
At least Common Courtesy asks the more relevant questions, "Is a government responsible for the overall safety/welfare of its people?"
But I would also point out that latter question is a moving target, and can be asked on a short term or long terms basis.
Maybe Japan circa 1925-1945 is a classic example. When presented a classic once in thousand years opportunity to expand their powers when their neighbors were all weak and the European's were otherwise occupied, they brought unprecedented wealth to the Japanese people by looting Korea and China. And then when they saw an opportunity to take out the last watchdog in the USA, they planned a brilliant attack on Pearl Harbor that could have, if they got some of the US air craft carriers, allowed Japan to dominate the Pacific ocean for decades. As we know, the US carriers, were not in Pearl Harbor on 12/7/1941, then got US basically lucky in the battle of Midway, because one failed catapult did not allow a scout plane to be launched, and if the four carriers in the Japanese fleet had spotted the US carriers earlier, the outcome might have been far different. Two years and two months later, the battleship Missouri was anchored in Tokyo harbor receiving their surrender and if the US had not been willing to feed the Japanese people, most would have starved in a bombed out country.
Israel is a somewhat similar situation. IMHO, the 1948 UN decision to form the State of Israel was correct, and the surrounding Arab States were wrong. But the Palestinian people who were also settled in Israel at the time were more innocent victims than Arab co conspirators.
And in a better world, Israel could have treated them equally and instead opted to do the wrong thing. And still continues to do the wrong thing, which does not elevate the behavior of the surrounding Arab countries in any way, who are also wrong. Which sets up what amounts to a long term coming train wreck.
1. At a time when the surrounding Arab countries are willing to accept the existence of Israel, certainly evidenced by the Annapolis peace conference, Israel continues to mistreat the Palestinian people, and prevent the formation of a Palestinian state, the one thing that could make Israel a welcome addition to the mideast, by continuing to settle on the disputed land of the West bank.
2. At the same time, Israel has become a one trick pony, the military hegemony Israel needed in the early years, is now achieved in spades, but it has, IMHO, becomes an Israeli liability long term. Because unless Israel can make peace with its neighbors, building regional hatreds against Israel to impossibly high levels, is sustainable only if Israeli military hegemony lasts forever.
Meanwhile, various anti Israeli terrorist groups groups have been attacking Israel for 61 out of 61 years of its existence. And the more Israel tries to repress terrorism, the more terrorism they get. Worse yet, technology changes favor terrorists more than Israel.
As someone who favors a just and fair mid east peace, its easy to say both sides are wrong, but I think its will be a damn shame if Israeli stubbornness and an unwillingness to pursue a just peace finally results on all Israeli being pushed into the sea. 275 million to six million odds cannot prevail long term. And to answer the Common Courtesy question, if the Israeli government wants to be long term responsible to its people, they will have to do some serious changing, come to the peace table , and be willing to makes some serious concessions including the right to return. And the Arabs will have to make some serious concessions also. Or the anti sematism that Israel fears will become both a self fulfilling prophesy and something that Israel earns. And since the Palestinian people are a semantic people also, their unfair treatment cannot be ignored.
All Obama's admin has to do is not veto a couple of UN resolutions and Israel will become the pariah state that South Africa once was. Of course, not giving Israel 5 billion or so every year might help too, but is not important. Obama can also reduce the military cooperation, but given Israel's developed spy network in the US, they can probably get almost any military secrets they want, or outright steal them (like they stole the plutonium and the know-how for their first nuclear weapons).
I don't think it is likely, though. Probably a few mild public admonishments, and nothing happening in practice. In 50 years the Arabs will outnumber the Jews in Israel proper and the problem will be solved by itself like in South Africa. Even now more Russian Jews are leaving, for example, than arriving, and a lot of the recent advancements in Israel's military know-how was due exclusively to the huge number of educated Russian Jews who arrived there in the 90s.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
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Concerning Russian jews<--- actually that is correct to a point! Some a few select Russian jews are leaving israel to go back to Russia. But if i remember correctly a few years ago i read an article....
But I can`t aseem to find it so I will quote a blog that I believe to acurately state the case of Russian Jews--
This actually published by Time magazine a few years ago--
http://annies-letters.blogspot.com/2007/12/putin-lures-back-russian-jews-from.html
When the faltering Soviet Union opened its exit gates, over a million Jews flocked to Israel. They are now Israel?s top ice-skaters and chess masters and its most glamorous models. Soviet doctors and nurses staff many Israeli hospitals. They have their own television channels and newspapers, and their own billionaires and rough-edged politicians.
Now Vladmir Putin wants them back, it seems. The Israeli daily Haaretz on Monday ran an excellent expose claiming that under the guise of a Russian culture center in Tel Aviv, headed by a former KGB spy and a noted Hebrew expert, Putin is trying to lure back the Russian professionals who left for Israel in the mid-1970s and onwards. Haaretz claims that Putin established a group called ?the Sons of the Homeland? to keep open links between Mother Russia and its wayward children. The daily says that over 3 million Russian-speaking Jews are scattered over five continents, but many of the ones that Putin wants back ?-those with education and entrepreneurial savvy, not to mention lots of cash-- are concentrated in Israel.
So, is it working? Haaretz doesn?t explain what enticements the Russian cultural center seems to be offering, other than better wages and swift nationalization. But the paper cites statistics from Israel?s Immigration Ministry showing that 100,000 Jews from the ex-USSR have moved back to Russia and the Ukraine, and another 70,000 Israelis are living in Moscow, but hanging on to their old passports in case the Russian economy sours.
While this is going on, the Israelis are busy in Russia trying to get more Jews to emigrate. But not all Soviet Jews that ended up in Israel are, well, that Jewish. An Israeli mayor told me that when he assisted at the burial of a soldier killed during the 2006 Lebanon war, he saw the deceased?s mother crossing herself ?as did many of the dead soldier?s comrades and buddies. Estimates say that up to 300,000 of the ex-Soviets who ended up in Israel may not be entirely kosher. They fudged documents claiming Jewish ancestry. And that may explain why a few Russian teenagers set up their own neo-Nazi gang and vandalized a synagogue and a graveyard. Those are the ones that Israeli would like to see queuing up outside the new Russian Cultural Center for a ticket to Siberia.
--by Tim McGirk/Jerusalem
Either way you look at this issue -- most of us agree that both sides need to meet in the middle and work out a solution that is just!
If a solutiuon is not worked out will the Arabs eventually out number the Israelis?
Sure...but as long as there is the nuclear deterent do not look for the arabs even when they out number the Israeli`s to go to war with israel.......when faced with total annihilation any country that had nukes would use them!
Both sides need to man up and work for a lasting peace!!
Shalom!!
- Nov 6, 2005
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"Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
The author brings out some interesting points from the Israeli POV.
If Obama wants the problems resolved; he can not shun Israel. "
I have to ask where does this notion of shunning Israel come from? Obama is talking to Israel,
has visited the country, has envoys in and out, and must clearly have a dialog going on or how could have Israel snubbed Obama by saying no to restricting new settlement on the West Bank.
So I suggest the Israel snit is somewhat of a spoiled child, motivated, not because Obama does not pay attention to Israel, but motivated by the fact Obama is also talking to Arabs also for a change, and Israel can't handle that getting any less than 100% of attention because the universe revolves around spoiled brats and Israel who deserve exclusive devotion.
The author brings out some interesting points from the Israeli POV.
If Obama wants the problems resolved; he can not shun Israel. "
I have to ask where does this notion of shunning Israel come from? Obama is talking to Israel,
has visited the country, has envoys in and out, and must clearly have a dialog going on or how could have Israel snubbed Obama by saying no to restricting new settlement on the West Bank.
So I suggest the Israel snit is somewhat of a spoiled child, motivated, not because Obama does not pay attention to Israel, but motivated by the fact Obama is also talking to Arabs also for a change, and Israel can't handle that getting any less than 100% of attention because the universe revolves around spoiled brats and Israel who deserve exclusive devotion.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
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You are becoming quite literally the bumbling village idiot. With your incessant israel can`t handle this or that or anything else.
We all know you believe everything that happens in the middle east is Israel`s fault!
If you would actually read what your going to post before hitting the Reply To Topic button you would see how utterly nonsensicle your rambling have become!
mrSHEiK124
Lifer
- Mar 6, 2004
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THIS NON SEQUITUR WAS BROUGHT TO YOU BY JS80! He said ISRAELI PROBLEMS, not "the Jewish problem" as in Hitler's Jewish problem, :roll:
I understood what he said perfectly. The status quo (Israel's attitude and stances) have failed to help it solve any of its problems (4 million pissed off second class "citizens," pissed off neighbors, countless wars) for the entirety of its existence. Fucking idiot.
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