A religious question

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

But the "God did it" theory is not a valid explanation for anything.

Sure it is. Why not? Something was done, and the ability to do so is not possessed by anyone on the Earth at this time. Therefore, either something odd happened, or someone with greater power exist that made it happen. I see no reason that either argument could not be drawn.

Theories must be supported by data, not just fit the data. I could form a theory that we are actually living in a virtual world; Our real bodies connected to computers that simulate the real world. This theory is certainly possible and nobody would be able to disprove it, however it is still not a valid theory. There is no evidence that could lead one to believe that we live in a virtual world, so it is totally irrelevant that the theory happens to be possible. This is the problem with your theory. You created a conclusion and then attempted to disprove it. This just isn't a valid way of doing things.

I never stated that my conclusion were not based upon data. As I previously stated, there have been several instances in my life that have proven to me that God does exist. As previously stated, most of these experiences I consider sacred and therefore do not go into specific about them on a public forum. I do not believe I have given you reason not to believe me, so I hope that you can give me the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Just like when a person says, "Well, it is stated that yellow and blue mixed should make green. So if I color a piece of paper yellow, then go over it with blue, I should get a green pape." That is a theory being supported by data. So if I pray to God and get an answer, should that not be similar? Although the "data" that support the concept of a God is somewhat different than with science, that doesn't make it any less valid. The Bible itself tells people to try the teaching contained therein. It doesn't simply say to believe without question or evidence. I believe you are 100% correct. But I also believe there is data to support the theory.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Sure it is. Why not? Something was done, and the ability to do so is not possessed by anyone on the Earth at this time. Therefore, either something odd happened, or someone with greater power exist that made it happen. I see no reason that either argument could not be drawn.

The proper thing to do when we cannot explain something is to not form a conclusion. Just because we don't currently know what caused an event, does not mean we never will. A conclusion shouldn't be formed until all reasonable possibilities have been explored and exhausted.

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
So if I pray to God and get an answer, should that not be similar? Although the "data" that support the concept of a God is somewhat different than with science, that doesn't make it any less valid.

It depends on what you mean by "get an answer". If by "get an answer" you mean that God literally talked to you than I have no argument. However, if by "get an answer" you mean something along the lines of "I prayed for such and such and it happened" then your claim does not hold up. For example, if I want to claim that I won the lottery because I prayed to God then I have to go further than just stating the fact that "I prayed and it happened". I have to present a reasonable argument that my prayer is the most likely reason that I won the lottery. I'm not sure how one goes about doing this.

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: blackllotus
The proper thing to do when we cannot explain something is to not form a conclusion. Just because we don't currently know what caused an event, does not mean we never will. A conclusion shouldn't be formed until all reasonable possibilities have been explored and exhausted.

That is true, but in the act of exploring and exhausting all possibilities, would you not begin to make an informed conclusion based upon your findings? After all, is it ever really possible to explore and exhaust EVERY possibility?

It depends on what you mean by "get an answer". If by "get an answer" you mean that God literally talked to you than I have no argument. However, if by "get an answer" you mean something along the lines of "I prayed for such and such and it happened" then your claim does not hold up. For example, if I want to claim that I won the lottery because I prayed to God then I have to go further than just stating the fact that "I prayed and it happened". I have to present a reasonable argument that my prayer is the most likely reason that I won the lottery. I'm not sure how one goes about doing this.

I understand you point, and I do have to agree with you. Attributing two events together that may or may not have anything to do with each other is often very difficult and is typically very hard to convince another person of. However, as you stated, I don't attribute an answer to my prayer as being I prayed for a new car and later won one on a game show. I have prayer to God before and he has spoken back. It is 100% possible to hold a normal conversation with God. After all, there are repeated experiences of people talking with God as they would talk to a friend or another person. Many have attributed this to the person being dillusional or hearing voices, and such is there right, but I believe most people would find me to be a very sane person, though possibly a bit weird.

 

[brownzilla786]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: blackllotus
The proper thing to do when we cannot explain something is to not form a conclusion. Just because we don't currently know what caused an event, does not mean we never will. A conclusion shouldn't be formed until all reasonable possibilities have been explored and exhausted.

That is true, but in the act of exploring and exhausting all possibilities, would you not begin to make an informed conclusion based upon your findings? After all, is it ever really possible to explore and exhaust EVERY possibility?

It depends on what you mean by "get an answer". If by "get an answer" you mean that God literally talked to you than I have no argument. However, if by "get an answer" you mean something along the lines of "I prayed for such and such and it happened" then your claim does not hold up. For example, if I want to claim that I won the lottery because I prayed to God then I have to go further than just stating the fact that "I prayed and it happened". I have to present a reasonable argument that my prayer is the most likely reason that I won the lottery. I'm not sure how one goes about doing this.

I understand you point, and I do have to agree with you. Attributing two events together that may or may not have anything to do with each other is often very difficult and is typically very hard to convince another person of. However, as you stated, I don't attribute an answer to my prayer as being I prayed for a new car and later won one on a game show. I have prayer to God before and he has spoken back. It is 100% possible to hold a normal conversation with God. After all, there are repeated experiences of people talking with God as they would talk to a friend or another person. Many have attributed this to the person being dillusional or hearing voices, and such is there right, but I believe most people would find me to be a very sane person, though possibly a bit weird.

It's very hard to believe someone actually "held a conversation" with god. I absolutley agree you can talk TO god, but not exactly hold a conversation. God does not "talk" to people, but instead shows his message through people, events, etc.. The only people god actually talked to were prophets, and most of the time he sent his message through angels who gave the message to the prophets.

One talks to god by praying and hoping, but actually holding a conversation?
Maybe im a bit confused about how you used conversation

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: brownzilla786

It's very hard to believe someone actually "held a conversation" with god. I absolutley agree you can talk TO god, but not exactly hold a conversation. God does not "talk" to people, but instead shows his message through people, events, etc.. The only people god actually talked to were prophets, and most of the time he sent his message through angels who gave the message to the prophets.

One talks to god by praying and hoping, but actually holding a conversation?
Maybe im a bit confused about how you used conversation

No, I think you're understanding me correctly, but I see no reason to believe that prayer is a one-way only form of communication. I'm not sure I understand the idea that a person can only ask questions, but can not expect an answer at that time. I simply see not reason to believe we cannot literally talk to God if we are worthy to hear. I know its possible because it happens all the time to me and to many others that I know.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore

Originally posted by: brownzilla786

It's very hard to believe someone actually "held a conversation" with god. I absolutley agree you can talk TO god, but not exactly hold a conversation. God does not "talk" to people, but instead shows his message through people, events, etc.. The only people god actually talked to were prophets, and most of the time he sent his message through angels who gave the message to the prophets.

One talks to god by praying and hoping, but actually holding a conversation?
Maybe im a bit confused about how you used conversation

No, I think you're understanding me correctly, but I see no reason to believe that prayer is a one-way only form of communication. I'm not sure I understand the idea that a person can only ask questions, but can not expect an answer at that time. I simply see not reason to believe we cannot literally talk to God if we are worthy to hear. I know its possible because it happens all the time to me and to many others that I know.

When you say talk do you mean you hear Him through your mind? If so then how do you know its not just you creating the answers you want to her (ie: how do you know you aren't imagining it)?

 

[engineereeyore]

Originally posted by: blackllotus

When you say talk do you mean you hear Him through your mind? If so then how do you know its not just you creating the answers you want to her (ie: how do you know you aren't imagining it)?

And that's exactly what I meant when I said people would often attribute such activities to people be dillusional or hearing voices. To answer the question, no. I hear him through my heart, not my mind. It's hard to explain, kind of one of those things you have to experience. But I'll tell you, if I'm only creating these answers or these "voices", then I am the smartest person alive, or at least that I've met.

I have often given others blessings, either for comfort or for health, and given them answers or blessing I had no ideas they had or were in need of. I myself have been on the receiving end of such blessings several times, and it really is incredible. I have seen miracles come to pass as a result, and even if you don't believe they're miracle but are simply things science hasn't come to understand yet, that still doesn't explain how I was able to tell them it would happen days or weeks before it does. And, I've never been wrong. I don't say that to boast, but merely to show that it is not coincidence.

I guess I don't have the same view point on God that most do. I don't believe him to be some spirit off in la-la land that only set things in motion and then left. I believe him to be someone who is daily concerned and involved in the lives of all his children. That doesn't always mean everything is peachy for his children, but just because things are down doesn't mean he's not around.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: RichardE
So, while thinking about The debate. I am sitting, trying and thinking of how science and religion are mixed. Where religion tells us we god created us out of nothing, (we will stick to Christian religion here.) and Science tells us we were created from a single point of intense energy.

So while thinking about this, I came up with an idea of what if?

What if the bible was real, works written by man inspired by a real god to influence us over generations. The problem arises with what is written does not correspond to what we know.

On another thought, If say my three year old son came and asked me "Dad, where did I come from?"

"Well son, you were a baby and came out of mummies tummy"


Fast forward 10 years, and my 13 year old asks the same question, well, it is time for the "talk"

So perhaps the bible was dumb downed for people of the time. I doubt if the prophets had sat on there perchers and tried to teach modern day physics to the people of the time it would have had the influence they had, they would have probally been called madman and punished for blasphemy. Perhaps religion was meant to grow with science. It is without a doubt that some of the laws that govern our world are seemingly brushed with a divine hand, at the same time, the bible is out of date it seems with its explanations of the world.

What do you guys think? Was religion meant to grow alongside science?

Religion, real religion, is a bridge to reality maintained by the being who crossed into another world than this one and has built within its structures the technique and methodologies and arguments, etc, suitable for the people in which that being finds his existence. Time and place make for different people and therefore every being from the other world must design a new bridge. A people who do science will be given a science oriented bridge. This is the science of religion, to speak to everybody in accordance with their level of understanding taking into account their dominant concealed prejudices. God keeps sending his messengers and they are here all the time. Sadly man falls in love with the bridge and does not cross. He gets all worked up about whose is the best bridge. But there are a few who cross.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: RichardE
Was religion meant to grow alongside science?

Religion was the old version of science. It was the best means for people to explain the world around them. For a long time, much of the best thinking was done in religious circles because they were really the only ones doing any thinking at all. Then came the Enlightenment and it has become clear to most of the educated world that science is better at explaining the world around us.

And what does it profit a man to know everything about the world and nothing about himself?

If I'm understanding you correctly, then my response is:
Science can tell you much more about yourself than religion can.

 

[Moonbeam]

How then, how does science define this self it is going to be telling me so much about?

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Originally posted by: shrumpage

Originally posted by: blackllotus

Originally posted by: shrumpage
Myself i believe in God not because what i read in a book, but what i've seen and experianced.

Emotions can be deceiving and most miracles are not too amazing when put in perspective. What evidence do you know of that has left you with the most logical conclusion being that God exists? There is not much room in a natural world for evidence of a supernatural being.

EDIT: Original phrasing sounded like I was brown-nosing

Lets see i'm not poping pills to control acid reflux, haven't for years. healed, instantly.

During a church service a friend had her fillings change from standard sliver, to gold - went back to her dentists to have it verified and documented.

My wife was having medical trouble with her repoductive system, went to the doctor, had ultrasound done, and confirmed that there was mass causing the issue (and pain). Prior to going to her next appointment she got prayed for at church. At that point the pain and discomfort stopped, and on the follow up appointment the next day - the mass was gone.

Good friend of mine, chronic alcholic, got prayed for to be delived from alcohol - hasn't touched a drop since. Zero withdrawl sympthoms or side affects.

Girl i went to school with and the same church had extremely thick glasses ( proably a -5) got healed. 8 years later, still no glasses or contacts.

Those are examples i've witnessed.

LOL so your friend got laser eye surgery and you think it's a miracle. HAHAHAHHA