A reflection of the effects of Section 8 housing from a Memphis veteran cop

[Craig234]

That's only page 1 of 4. Here's the entire story.

Thanks for pointing that out. It's a good read. (And in The Atlantic Magazine, recommended in my sig).

It helps show that the issues are tough - and its recommendations sound like my post above.

 

[jhu]

If billing did not = reinbursement, why bill?

-John

Depending on the insurance, it can be just to mitigate the losses.

 

[Zorkorist]

So you bill insurance companies $5,000 for curing the common cold.

Meanwile, people like me, that never get sick, and carry minimal insurance, get pulled into your nightmare by Obama.

-John

 

[Craig234]

So you bill insurance companies $5,000 for curing the common cold.

Meanwile, people like me, that never get sick, and carry minimal insurance, get pulled into your nightmare by Obama.

-John

Wah. I suggest you not pay for your fire department since your house doesn't burn down. No kids or grown kids? Stop paying your property taxes for schools.

 

[jhu]

So you bill insurance companies $5,000 for curing the common cold.

Meanwile, people like me, that never get sick, and carry minimal insurance, get pulled into your nightmare by Obama.

-John

Like I said, billing != reimbursement. You can bill whatever you want. It doesn't mean you'll get it. In this country, health care is already de facto socialized.

 

[Zorkorist]

It is.. Insurance companies and Government are to blame.

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

That's also what makes it so expensive...

Government. (shiver)

Insurance Companies (shiver)

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

Note:

Doctor's and Nurses, aren't that expensive.

-John

 

[Hacp]

Why has a post about the evils of section 8 turned into a fight about insurance? We need more people denouncing section 8...

 

[fallout man]

Note:

Doctor's and Nurses, aren't that expensive.

-John

If you break it down, probably not until you get into surgery.

 

[Zorkorist]

Have you seen the movie District 9?

-John

 

[Zorkorist]

If you break it down, probably not until you get into surgery.

They aren't that expensive, ever.

They may be good at Brain Surgery, but so are 1000 people.

It's easily Government, Insurance, and Lawyers, that make Medical care so expensive.

-John

 

[chucky2]

How could you turn a thread about the poor and housing into a HC debate? How????

Chuck

P.S. Do you notice how I included not only the 'How????' but also this P.S. into one single post, rather than three? Try it, you'll like it...

 

[palehorse]

The only section of my hometown that has to be avoided after dark is the Section8 area.

So, the news here is that poverty is linked to crime?

gee, imagine that.

I've always wanted to see someone do a longterm (multi-generational) study on the section8 areas to see how many of the people living there use the opportunity to better themselves, and move UP in the social structure, versus how many simply veg in the section8 housing for life, generation after generation.

What is the cost/benefit for moving them into the suburbs? Is the spread of crime worth the hassle and money? For instance, what is the percentage increase of college graduates from such locales versus the inner city locations they left behind?

It really is a fascinating subject, and one that does not get enough attention. I'd really like to see some hard data that could be analyzed without people throwing the word "bigot" around.

Anyone got link?

 

[jhu]

It is.. Insurance companies and Government are to blame.

They're not necessarily bad. In theory (and usually in reality), insurance pools risk and spreads the cost around so no individual has to bare the full brunt of the true financial cost of treatments, which can be financially crushing (almost any surgery, cancer treatment, etc.).

Note:

Doctor's and Nurses, aren't that expensive.

-John

Oh but they are given how much training they have to go through. Would you want any random Joe to take your gallbladder out or someone who's gone through at least 5 years of a surgical residency (and usually more on top of having to go through college and medical school)?

 

[jhu]

So here's the crux of the problem:

His most surprising finding, he says, “is that they miss the old community. For all of its faults, there was a tight network that existed. So what I’m trying to figure out is: Was this a bad theory of poverty? We were intending to help people climb out of poverty, but that hasn’t happened at all. Have we underestimated the role of support networks and overestimated the role of place?”

 

[fallout man]

The only section of my hometown that has to be avoided after dark is the Section8 area.

So, the news here is that poverty is linked to crime?

gee, imagine that.

I've always wanted to see someone do a longterm (multi-generational) study on the section8 areas to see how many of the people living there use the opportunity to better themselves, and move UP in the social structure, versus how many simply veg in the section8 housing for life, generation after generation.

What is the cost/benefit for moving them into the suburbs? Is the spread of crime worth the hassle and money? For instance, what is the percentage increase of college graduates from such locales versus the inner city locations they left behind?

It really is a fascinating subject, and one that does not get enough attention. I'd really like to see some hard data.

Anyone got link?

Anyone got spare funding for this study? HA HA HA... Didn't think so!

 

[Craig234]

The only section of my hometown that has to be avoided after dark is the Section8 area.

So, the news here is that poverty is linked to crime?

gee, imagine that.

I've always wanted to see someone do a longterm (multi-generational) study on the section8 areas to see how many of the people living there use the opportunity to better themselves, and move UP in the social structure, versus how many simply veg in the section8 housing for life, generation after generation.

What is the cost/benefit for moving them into the suburbs? Is the spread of crime worth the hassle and money? For instance, what is the percentage increase of college graduates from such locales versus the inner city locations they left behind?

It really is a fascinating subject, and one that does not get enough attention. I'd really like to see some hard data that could be analyzed without people throwing the word "bigot" around.

Anyone got link?

I don't think your post is bigoted. I do think the discussion lacks the most important think, the results of trying a more comprehensive social program as I described before. Just housing can fall short.

 

[highland145]

Is there fair access to good education that takes decades to pay off for society? Were social services monitoring and involved supporting the trnsitions? Perhaps none of this?

Did you watch the 20/20 Stupid in America video posted a few weeks back? (I'm so happy they focused on my state^_^) Even with a bazillion $$ the education system sucks because of....the education system. Massive reform needed there that isn't going to happen. More importantly, the parents have to take the primary role in raising their kids and making education important. How you get a parent, that is a product of that same environment, to do that is beyond me.

Were social services monitoring and involved supporting the trnsitions? Perhaps none of this?

A friend works for the SC DSS. She has over 200 cases that she is supposed to make home visits to every month. Not possible. Lack of funding.

 

[SAWYER]

Memphis is such a shithole, I go there quite often..it's really sad

 

[highland145]

I've always wanted to see someone do a longterm (multi-generational) study on the section8 areas to see how many of the people living there use the opportunity to better themselves, and move UP in the social structure, versus how many simply veg in the section8 housing for life, generation after generation.

I can give personal experience in my limited pool. I started in the consumer finance industry in '87. At that time, we did business with 3 generations of the same family. All on section 8, getting AFDC, subsidized power/water...Today, I still have 3 generations of the same family. All on section 8...

Back then, section 8 was a different animal. The more kids, the bigger the check. One customer had 9. Now, they play the disability game. I had 2 sisters, one with 5 and the other with 6 kids. Most of them got SSI checks. A review was done 2 years ago and all but one had their checks stopped. One of the sisters has never had a job @ 40 and got offended when I suggested it.

SC offers education help for single low income mothers. Fully paid tech, books, daycare, gas...I have had one customer take advantage of the opportunity, graduate and improve her life. Kudos to her.


I think the family and community have to step up to the plate to have any chance of "fixing" the problem. Children learn from their parents where their priorities should be.

 

[Specop 007]

I agree - there is no help for you....

I dont need help thanks. I take care of myself. Save your help for the ghetto trash sellin drugs.

 

[Specop 007]

Stop the presses, we have a new observation: there's a correlation between poverty and crime.

Thats been known for years. No one wants to admit it and the assumption is moving the poor into the middle class and wealthy neighborhoods is the solution. We also know that doesnt work either.....

More efforts, not fewer, are needed. Is there fair access to good education that takes decades to pay off for society? Is there income opportunity in an age of wealth concentration? Was there drug treatment for people movin with drug problems? Were social services monitoring and involved supporting the trnsitions? Perhaps none of this?

You can provide all the opportunity in the world, if the people dont take advantage of it its a lost cause. This isnt an issue of are we helping enough or not, its an issue of they dont want to better themselves. You cant change that with a policy or federal aid.

Of course the OP is happy for the simple answer that trashes millions of people. The 'keep poverty going, centuries of discrimination and racism are best allowed to continue effects like ghettoes' answer.

Trashes millions? You mean the ones who choose that lifestyle? They CHOOSE that lifestyle, your policies havent changed that in how many decades? Now we simply throw good money after bad for the sake of looking like we care. Shit, nobody cares anymore. You know it as well as I do.

I'd be willing to bet money he's not a poor minority person living in a ghetto. Hence his "make this annoying problem go away where I can ignore it".

What does that have to do with anything? If I WERE a poor minority in the ghetto I'd make myself go away so I could forget it. I'd get a J-O-B and move the hell out!

Last night, Jon Stewart played a Repulbican leader saying 'I don'd mind gays, I just don't want them shoving it down my throat'. Apart from the humor hy he played it, it's the same mentaliity.

'Those people' are second class, and I should not be annoyed by them. I'm happy for blacks to do well, but only if it's without any bother for them to overcome the effects of past discrimination.

THERE IT IS!! The past suffering crutch. White guilt? Shit, chances are OUR ancestors were indentured servants to get over here. Unless you have the silver spoon on the wall.... I dont see too many white people bitching about that? What about the black slave owners from yestercentury? Oh yes, strangely quiet on that front too.

Between the costs of increasing equal opportunity, and leaving them with the roadblocks of the history of discrimination, easy call - they can suck it. I've supported the end of segregation - that's plenty.

Let's say the OP is right, that there's a correlation between crime and section 8 housing, without the other supporting efforts. How many section 8 tenants are behaving criminally? Is it 5%? 15%?

He has no idea from the post - but he's ready to say 'screw them all' and put the innocents 'back into a cesspool of poverty and crime where they came from'.

Is there much clearer example of someone blinded in the arrogance or undeserved advantage? His class superiority dehumanizes the others so that if they're any inconvenience, they're worthless. Suck it.

Hey I can lead a horse to water, I shouldnt have to suck on its ass to make it drink. Thats what you want the middle class to do. throw money into the ghettos, when it doesnt work (Which it HASNT, so it NEVER WILL) you want them to throw even more. Until the poor accept some fundamental lifestyle changes, which come about outside of any monetary policy, they are a lost cause.

This is a form of racism, of bigotry about race and more, the lack of any empathy for a group of society, zero interest or concern about their well being, their history, challenges, justice.

Racism? Do you know what that term really means, or do you just throw it around to drum up support for your hollow argument?

They're just an annoyance. They should be off, not seen, in miserable situations, not bothering him, their betters. He can chant ideology about 'equal opportunity' and 'blame the victim' to sleep at night.

It's their own fault. No concern.

And who would you blame? Oh right, its MY fault. I grew up poor, went to college on my dime, got a decent job, so its MY fault someone else grew up poor and decided to sell drugs and be a hoodrat.

Gotchya. I think we can change this with money! What if we give out free money to drug dealers to not sell drugs?

 

[CycloWizard]

Stop the presses, we have a new observation: there's a correlation between poverty and crime.

More efforts, not fewer, are needed. Is there fair access to good education that takes decades to pay off for society? Is there income opportunity in an age of wealth concentration? Was there drug treatment for people movin with drug problems? Were social services monitoring and involved supporting the trnsitions? Perhaps none of this?

Of course the OP is happy for the simple answer that trashes millions of people. The 'keep poverty going, centuries of discrimination and racism are best allowed to continue effects like ghettoes' answer.

I'd be willing to bet money he's not a poor minority person living in a ghetto. Hence his "make this annoying problem go away where I can ignore it".

Last night, Jon Stewart played a Repulbican leader saying 'I don'd mind gays, I just don't want them shoving it down my throat'. Apart from the humor hy he played it, it's the same mentaliity.

'Those people' are second class, and I should not be annoyed by them. I'm happy for blacks to do well, but only if it's without any bother for them to overcome the effects of past discrimination.

Between the costs of increasing equal opportunity, and leaving them with the roadblocks of the history of discrimination, easy call - they can suck it. I've supported the end of segregation - that's plenty.

Let's say the OP is right, that there's a correlation between crime and section 8 housing, without the other supporting efforts. How many section 8 tenants are behaving criminally? Is it 5%? 15%?

He has no idea from the post - but he's ready to say 'screw them all' and put the innocents 'back into a cesspool of poverty and crime where they came from'.

Is there much clearer example of someone blinded in the arrogance or undeserved advantage? His class superiority dehumanizes the others so that if they're any inconvenience, they're worthless. Suck it.

This is a form of racism, of bigotry about race and more, the lack of any empathy for a group of society, zero interest or concern about their well being, their history, challenges, justice.

They're just an annoyance. They should be off, not seen, in miserable situations, not bothering him, their betters. He can chant ideology about 'equal opportunity' and 'blame the victim' to sleep at night.

It's their own fault. No concern.

The problem with your approach is that you feel something has to be done, but can't quite say what. You feel that something is owed to these people due to discrimination against them or their families. You feel that, because you feel this way, everyone else must be forced to follow your approach (whatever that might be). You feel this way because you know very well that, if not for the government taking your money and throwing it at this problem, you would do absolutely nothing to help any of these people.

 

[yllus]

Memphis demolished its first project in 1997. The city gave former residents federal “Section8” rent-subsidy vouchers and encouraged them to move out to new neighborhoods. Two more waves of demolition followed over the next nine years, dispersing tens of thousands of poor people into the wider metro community.

...

About six months ago, they decided to put a hunch to the test. Janikowski merged his computer map of crime patterns with Betts’s map of Section8 rentals. Where Janikowski saw a bunny rabbit, Betts saw a sideways horseshoe (“He has a better imagination,” she said). Otherwise, the match was near-perfect. On the merged map, dense violent-crime areas are shaded dark blue, and Section8 addresses are represented by little red dots. All of the dark-blue areas are covered in little red dots, like bursts of gunfire. The rest of the city has almost no dots.

That's actually very interesting. My city of Toronto is in the process of demolishing two areas that would be considered "projects" and rebuilding them as mixed income, which means dispersing some of the assisted income families there to the suburbs. We may see the same results occur locally.

The start date for their revelopment is 1997 - so in roughly 15 years, although the crime has been dispersed, it still occurs at similar levels? I suppose it is overly optimistic to think a mere transplant would overcome the many issues faced by those who commit crime. There's at least one generation of undereducated and otherwise ill-equipped men and women who will need to start a turnaround.

I take this not as a stinging indictment of the policy to pull down projects, but as an indicator that more (or different) needs to be done.