a recruiter told me Associates == Bachelors

[Imdmn04]

BS > AA

I don't understand why is everybody comparing BS w/no experience to AA w/experience.

Not really a fair comparison, because experience is an independent factor by itself. You can have experience whether you have a BS or an AA.

 

[AreaCode707]

Experience overrides any degree, so in that context the recruiter was right.

On the other hand, most recruiters are idiots (not real good at retaining/logicking through information) so s/he might have meant it literally, in which case, s/he is wrong.

 

[SampSon]

My degree is one of the last things I list on my resume.

 

[Apathetic]

Originally posted by: ViviTheMage
I guess the question is, should I get my AA in computer science, or go for my bachelors of applied science?

Go for the bachelors degree. As a computer programmer, I can't see an AA in computer science being worth much (assuming you want to be a computer programmer). You just don't have enough time to really cover the subject in two years.

Dave

 

[torpid]

Worth noting... enterprise applications are rapidly evolving to the point where a BS in computer science will actually be very useful to most programmers. The languages, libraries, frameworks, and architectures are all in place that actually let you leverage your theoretical studies in computer science now. Many places have moved beyond procedural programming and into OOP.

 

[Apathetic]

Originally posted by: ViviTheMage
I am thinking if I get my AA + CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Associate), CCNP (Cisco Certified Network Profesional), CCIP (Cisco Certified Internetwork Profesional) I would be almost better off then paying for the extra TWO years at a unniversity to get my bachelors?

When I have a pretty noteworthy position where I work now. noteworthy, as in it should get accredited for expereince pretty well?

Now an AA along with professional certs is a whole other matter, especially if the AA is in something other than networking (say computer programming, or database administration, whatever). You can present yourself as someone who knows networking really well, and can possibly perform as a backup programmer (or script writer), DBA, etc.

Generally speaking, employers look for certain criteria when hiring people. For programmers, they really want a BS in computer science or computer/electrical engineering (or possibly information systems). For network admins you really need a CCNA. If you don't have these things, you'll have a VERY hard time getting a job unless of course you already have a lot of experience in that area.

Good luck!

Dave

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: Preyhunter
Isn't the AA primarily the basics...math, science, english, etc. and not classes in the major field of study? Kinda like advanced high school?

From what I know, quite the opposite. Whereas the Bachelor degrees often have a bunch of match/science/whatever classes for the first 2 years then finally get into the major classes, the AA starts out with such classes much earlier.

From what I understand.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: torpid
Worth noting... enterprise applications are rapidly evolving to the point where a BS in computer science will actually be very useful to most programmers. The languages, libraries, frameworks, and architectures are all in place that actually let you leverage your theoretical studies in computer science now. Many places have moved beyond procedural programming and into OOP.

This has been happening for a few decades.

Also, to what theoretical knowledge are you referring? 99.99% of enterprise applications (that was your example, so I'll use that) is about actual practice, not theory. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there's simply no theory at all. Even core principles like Liskov Substitution Principle (if we're talking OO, which we are), Open-Closed Principle, etc. are founded more in practice than theory.

Simply put, a theoretical understanding of software is better suited for academia than practice. This does not preclude proper design of course, but any OO practicioner should be more than able to present a cohesive design. It takes years for people to "get" OO, and I've not known a single person straight out of school that does get it. It takes years of practice, design, understanding, reevaluation of ideas, etc.

Modern platforms (e.g. .NET, Java) have increased the level of abstraction for developers, so instead of thinking about bit twiddling we're thinking about coupling, behavioral cohesion, etc. It gives way to a higher level of thought that is more closely correlated to the business itself, and this is why enterprise developers have to focus on their business capacity to compete. It's hard to tell the difference between better developers and a BA, SA, etc.; the lines are thinner than they were a decade ago.

 

[waggy]

a recruiter will tell you anything they think they need to get you to work for them.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: waggy
a recruiter will tell you anything they think they need to get you to work for them.

Recruiters are just as much a part of this business as the person doing the actual work. It's a reality, and while sometimes unfortunate, they are a tool that can be used. It's good to have solid recruiters in your network, because you effectively increase your network by a few orders of magnitude.

They'll use you; you use them. It's a symbiotic relationship. You're paying for access to their network. Ultimately they are sales people, so it's up to you to negotiate properly to get what you want out of the deal.

 

[torpid]

Originally posted by: Descartes
This has been happening for a few decades.

Yes, but only in certain markets. It is now becoming much more widespread. Maybe you were lucky enough to be in one of the markets where good OOP was practiced, but I think many or most people were not. It's amazing to talk to my college friends who would work with extremely critical hardware and software and would be using really outdated languages and techniques.

Also, to what theoretical knowledge are you referring? 99.99% of enterprise applications (that was your example, so I'll use that) is about actual practice, not theory. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there's simply no theory at all. Even core principles like Liskov Substitution Principle (if we're talking OO, which we are), Open-Closed Principle, etc. are founded more in practice than theory.

Theoretical in the "theory of how programs should be written" sense, not in the "hypothetical" sense. I think you might be reading too much into the word theoretical here.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: waggy
a recruiter will tell you anything they think they need to get you to work for them.

Recruiters are just as much a part of this business as the person doing the actual work. It's a reality, and while sometimes unfortunate, they are a tool that can be used. It's good to have solid recruiters in your network, because you effectively increase your network by a few orders of magnitude.

They'll use you; you use them. It's a symbiotic relationship. You're paying for access to their network. Ultimately they are sales people, so it's up to you to negotiate properly to get what you want out of the deal.

right. but to take anything they say as truth is nuts. a AS is not even close to a BS. in the 90s yeah experiance was far more important then a BS but today many places are requireing both. There are way to many poeple with BS and experiance looking for work places can be picky.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: waggy
a recruiter will tell you anything they think they need to get you to work for them.

Recruiters are just as much a part of this business as the person doing the actual work. It's a reality, and while sometimes unfortunate, they are a tool that can be used. It's good to have solid recruiters in your network, because you effectively increase your network by a few orders of magnitude.

They'll use you; you use them. It's a symbiotic relationship. You're paying for access to their network. Ultimately they are sales people, so it's up to you to negotiate properly to get what you want out of the deal.

right. but to take anything they say as truth is nuts.

Not to wax philisophical here, but don't anything anyone says as truth. In business, everyone is out to take their own advantage, and if you forfeit it then it's ultimately your fault; no one is going to care about any educational/financial deficit of yours. People need to find their own path, and that doesn't always include the traditional path set forth by every other lemming that follows the same.

a AS is not even close to a BS. in the 90s yeah experiance was far more important then a BS but today many places are requireing both. There are way to many poeple with BS and experiance looking for work places can be picky.

I completely disagree with your assessment as well, but that's another time. Have you read the comments in this thread?

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: torpid

Originally posted by: Descartes
This has been happening for a few decades.

Yes, but only in certain markets. It is now becoming much more widespread. Maybe you were lucky enough to be in one of the markets where good OOP was practiced, but I think many or most people were not. It's amazing to talk to my college friends who would work with extremely critical hardware and software and would be using really outdated languages and techniques.

Good points. I agree. I am still finding that there's a large deficit of understanding in the OO world as well. Much of my time is spent working with others on OO concepts as the idea of "thinking in objects" simply doesn't exist. As we all know, using a language founded in OO is different than understanding OO.

Overall though, I think we've seen a resurgence of OO interest and understanding, and it's resulted in a lot of interesting ideas; of course, it's resulted in a lot of over-engineering as well, but that's another topic

Also, to what theoretical knowledge are you referring? 99.99% of enterprise applications (that was your example, so I'll use that) is about actual practice, not theory. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that there's simply no theory at all. Even core principles like Liskov Substitution Principle (if we're talking OO, which we are), Open-Closed Principle, etc. are founded more in practice than theory.

Theoretical in the "theory of how programs should be written" sense, not in the "hypothetical" sense. I think you might be reading too much into the word theoretical here.

Gotcha. I agree then.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: waggy
a recruiter will tell you anything they think they need to get you to work for them.

Recruiters are just as much a part of this business as the person doing the actual work. It's a reality, and while sometimes unfortunate, they are a tool that can be used. It's good to have solid recruiters in your network, because you effectively increase your network by a few orders of magnitude.

They'll use you; you use them. It's a symbiotic relationship. You're paying for access to their network. Ultimately they are sales people, so it's up to you to negotiate properly to get what you want out of the deal.

right. but to take anything they say as truth is nuts.

Not to wax philisophical here, but don't anything anyone says as truth. In business, everyone is out to take their own advantage, and if you forfeit it then it's ultimately your fault; no one is going to care about any educational/financial deficit of yours. People need to find their own path, and that doesn't always include the traditional path set forth by every other lemming that follows the same.

a AS is not even close to a BS. in the 90s yeah experiance was far more important then a BS but today many places are requireing both. There are way to many poeple with BS and experiance looking for work places can be picky.

I completely disagree with your assessment as well, but that's another time. Have you read the comments in this thread?

ok from my experiance (as management and owner) many places are starting to require a BS.

now is every place like that? obviously not. a buddy of mine got a job (all he has is a BS) at a smaller place where he does pretty much everything IT related. While i know the guy is talented he would not be hired at a few places i have worked.

but ATOT is not the place to really talk about it. there are a few here that have been successful without getting a degree or HS diploma.

 

[Descartes]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: Descartes

Originally posted by: waggy
a recruiter will tell you anything they think they need to get you to work for them.

Recruiters are just as much a part of this business as the person doing the actual work. It's a reality, and while sometimes unfortunate, they are a tool that can be used. It's good to have solid recruiters in your network, because you effectively increase your network by a few orders of magnitude.

They'll use you; you use them. It's a symbiotic relationship. You're paying for access to their network. Ultimately they are sales people, so it's up to you to negotiate properly to get what you want out of the deal.

right. but to take anything they say as truth is nuts.

Not to wax philisophical here, but don't anything anyone says as truth. In business, everyone is out to take their own advantage, and if you forfeit it then it's ultimately your fault; no one is going to care about any educational/financial deficit of yours. People need to find their own path, and that doesn't always include the traditional path set forth by every other lemming that follows the same.

a AS is not even close to a BS. in the 90s yeah experiance was far more important then a BS but today many places are requireing both. There are way to many poeple with BS and experiance looking for work places can be picky.

I completely disagree with your assessment as well, but that's another time. Have you read the comments in this thread?

ok from my experiance (as management and owner) many places are starting to require a BS.

now is every place like that? obviously not. a buddy of mine got a job (all he has is a BS) at a smaller place where he does pretty much everything IT related. While i know the guy is talented he would not be hired at a few places i have worked.

Fair enough I'm being a little pugilistic I think, so I'll back away from this thread

but ATOT is not the place to really talk about it. there are a few here that have been successful without getting a degree or HS diploma.

I was (or technically still am depending on how you look at it) one of those people.

:thumbsup:

 

[ViviTheMage]

updated the OP...any ideas?!

I want to stay away from programming, im more interested in network infrastructure or even system administrator, so theres no need for me to get a computer science degree.

 

[udonoogen]

its hard enough to find good jobs nowadays, all things being equal (which they never really are) ... a company will probably call someone with a BS before their equivalent with an AA. experience does speak volumes but your first job will significantly determine the rest of your career path in that field (if you start lower, you have higher to climb).

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: udonoogen
its hard enough to find good jobs nowadays, all things being equal (which they never really are) ... a company will probably call someone with a BS before their equivalent with an AA. experience does speak volumes but your first job will significantly determine the rest of your career path in that field (if you start lower, you have higher to climb).

Exactly. The fact that one can make one's way without a degree in a non-professional career doesn't mean that a degree doesn't give an edge. All else being equal, a degreed person will always get a job over a non-degreed person. Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't worked in the real world. Many companies don't let resumes of non-degreed people past the first cut (at least without MAJOR experience); the major exception to this is when there are few applicants.

 

[BrokenVisage]

BS > AA

 

[bucwylde23]

I got a job at a help desk to get my foot in the door about 2 years ago. All along I was going to a CC to get my AA in Applied science with a major in Network support.

I now have my Associates degree, and around 2 years experience. I now have a different job in Networking/hardware which in the description REQUIRED a bachelor's degree and preferred a minimum of 7 years experience.

I am going to get some certifications because they like those here for when they bid on contracts, but other than that the Bachelors would be a waste of time for me at this point. oh and my job will never be outsourced

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: chrisg22
I got a job at a help desk to get my foot in the door about 2 years ago. All along I was going to a CC to get my AA in Applied science with a major in Network support.

I now have my Associates degree, and around 2 years experience. I now have a different job in Networking/hardware which in the description REQUIRED a bachelor's degree and preferred a minimum of 7 years experience.

I am going to get some certifications because they like those here for when they bid on contracts, but other than that the Bachelors would be a waste of time for me at this point. oh and my job will never be outsourced

Sounds like a sweet deal. As long as you stay there, the ONLY time the lack of a BS should hinder you within the company is when you're competing with someone else for a promotion/job transfer, etc. Even then, it will only be an edge and probably nothing more.

 

[bucwylde23]

Originally posted by: 6000SUX

Originally posted by: chrisg22
I got a job at a help desk to get my foot in the door about 2 years ago. All along I was going to a CC to get my AA in Applied science with a major in Network support.

I now have my Associates degree, and around 2 years experience. I now have a different job in Networking/hardware which in the description REQUIRED a bachelor's degree and preferred a minimum of 7 years experience.

I am going to get some certifications because they like those here for when they bid on contracts, but other than that the Bachelors would be a waste of time for me at this point. oh and my job will never be outsourced

Sounds like a sweet deal. As long as you stay there, the ONLY time the lack of a BS should hinder you within the company is when you're competing with someone else for a promotion/job transfer, etc. Even then, it will only be an edge and probably nothing more.

It's nice, and I get offers from other companies all the time. But I work for a big company with a lot of jobs in my area as well. ( General Dynamics)

But I will probably get my Bachelors later on. I just finished my associates this year, so I need some time off. It's hard to work and go to school at the same time. At this point in my life though the associates is more than enough.