A real-world example of the cost of climate change

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
136
So we can either spend money adapting to the changes or we apend our money changing they way our society is built (CO2 emissions) to accomplish nothing...

I guess you will have to add Daniel B. Botkin arguments to your list as well.

http://science.house.gov/sites/repu...ments/HHRG-113-SY-WState-DBotkin-20140529.pdf

"17.THE REPORT GIVES THE IMPRESSION THAT LIVING THINGS ARE FRAGILE AND
RIGID, unable to deal with change. The opposite is to case. Life is persistent,
adaptable, adjustable.
18. STEADY-STATE ASSUMPTION: There is an overall assumption in the IPCC 2014
report and the Climate Change Assessment that all change is negative and
undesirable; that it is ecologically and evolutionarily unnatural, bad for
populations, species, ecosystems, for all life on planet Earth, including people.
This is the opposite of the reality: The environment has always changed and is
always changing, and living things have had to adapt to these changes. Interestingly,
many, if not most, species that I have worked on or otherwise know about require
environmental change.7"

Those are old and discredited arguments. His argument is predicated on the idea that life can adapt to changing conditions. This is true. When life is confronted with the need to change as quickly as we are changing the planet's conditions, the historical record clearly shows the result is often mass extinction. I feel comfortable calling that "bad".

Secondly, this does nothing to address the fact that large portions of human infrastructure are built in areas that are particularly vulnerable to climate change. Regardless of whether or not we CAN adapt, it will be enormously costly.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,944
10,285
136
Because the actual motivation of that community is to make sure no policy response happens.

And what a lovely policy response that is. Take the EPA's policy. By 2100 they expect us to warm by:

4.000c without policy.
3.982c with policy.

You sure are fighting to "save the planet".
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
136
And what a lovely policy response that is. Take the EPA's policy. By 2100 they expect us to warm by:

4.000c without policy.
3.982c with policy.

You sure are fighting to "save the planet".

This would be a very compelling argument if this policy were the only thing we were planning on enacting by 2100.

Maybe, for example, other countries like China would follow suit:
http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKT9N0NH02W20140603?irpc=932

It's hardly a coincidence that their own pledge to limit their carbon emissions comes directly on the heels of ours.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Someone didn't read what the poll was about:

So for example if you think the climate was changing for the better you would not think it was a major threat nor would you be in denial of climate change.

I love the irony of it being progressives that essentially have declared that we magically reached optimal climate just before the industrial revolution. Talk about a coincidence!
The whole point of the poll was to identity the percentage of residents who thought climate change was a bad thing. So what "detail" are you claiming I missed? If this poll measured, say, the percentage of people who believed the climate was changing, regardless of whether or not they thought it was a threat, that would WEAKEN the argument that Republicans are troglodytes.

So your argument just reinforces the point the Republicans are just troglodytes: They are totally out of step with the opinions of the first world, but are totally in step with backward countries who control their citizen's access to unfiltered news. Congratulations on your brilliant observation about the ignorance and stupidity of Republicans.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,731
428
126
Those are old and discredited arguments. His argument is predicated on the idea that life can adapt to changing conditions. This is true. When life is confronted with the need to change as quickly as we are changing the planet's conditions, the historical record clearly shows the result is often mass extinction. I feel comfortable calling that "bad".

Secondly, this does nothing to address the fact that large portions of human infrastructure are built in areas that are particularly vulnerable to climate change. Regardless of whether or not we CAN adapt, it will be enormously costly.

Sorry but I'll take the word of a reputable Biologist over your word.

"10. ARE THERE MAJOR PROBLEMS WITH THE REPORTS? Yes, in assumptions, use
of data, and conclusions.
11. My biggest concern about the reports is that they present a number of speculative,
and sometimes incomplete, conclusions embedded in language that gives them
more scientific heft than they deserve. The reports, in other words, are "scientificsounding," rather than clearly settled and based on indisputable facts. Established facts
about the global environment exist less often in science than laymen usually think.
12. The two reports assume and/or argue that the climate warming forecast by the
global climate models is happening and will continue to happen and grow worse.
Currently these predictions are way off the reality (Figure 1). Models, like all scientific
theory, have to be tested against real-world observations. Experts in model validation say that the
climate models frequently cited in the IPCC report are little if any validated. This means that as
theory they are fundamentally scientifically unproven.
3
Figure 1: Climate model forecasts comparedto real world temperature observations(From
John Christy, University of Alabama and Alabama State Climatologist. Reproduced with
permission from him.)
13. The reports suffers from the use term “climate change” with two meanings: natural
and human-induced. These are both given as definitions in the IPCC report and are
not distinguished in the text and therefore confuse a reader. (The Climate Change
Assessment uses the term throughout including its title, but never defines it.) There are
places in the reports where only the second meaning—human induced---makes sense, so
that meaning has to be assumed. There are other places where either meaning could be
applied.
In those places where either meaning can be interpreted, if the statement is
4
assumed to be a natural change, then it is a truism, a basic characteristic of Earth’s
environment and something people have always know and experienced. If the
meaning is taken to be human-caused, then in spite of the assertions in the report,
the available data do not support the statements.
14. Some of the reports conclusions are the opposite of those given in articles
cited in defense of those conclusions.
For example, the IPCC 2014 Terrestrial Ecosystem Report states that “there is medium
confidence that rapid change in the Arctic is affecting its animals. For example, seven
of 19 subpopulations of the polar bear are declining in number” citing in support of
this an article by Vongraven and Richardson, 2011. That report states the contrary,
that the “‘decline’ is an illusion.
In addition, I have sought the available counts of the 19 subpopulations. Of these,
only three have been counted twice; the rest have been counted once. Thus no rate
of changes in the populations can be determined. The first count was done 1986 for
one subpopulation.
1

The U. S. Marine Mammal Commission, charged with the conservation of this
species, acknowledges “Accurate estimates of the current and historic sizes of polar
bear stocks are difficult to obtain for several reasons–the species‘ inaccessible habitat,
the movement of bears across international boundaries, and the costs of conducting
surveys.”
2
5
According to Dr. Susan Crockford, “out of the 13 populations for which some kind of
data exist, five populations are now classified by the PBSG [IUCN/SSC Polar Bear
Specialist Group] as ‘stable’ (two more than 2009), one is still increasing, and three
have been upgraded from ‘declining’ to ‘data deficient’. . . . That leaves four that are
still considered ‘declining’‐ two of those judgments are based primarily on concerns of
overhunting, and one is based on a statistically insignificant decline that may not be
valid and is being reassessed (and really should have been upgraded to ‘data
deficient’). That leaves only one population – Western Hudson Bay – where PBSG
biologists tenaciously blame global warming for all changes to polar bear biology, and
even then, the data supporting that conclusion is still not available.
3
“
Polar Bear Status (Source: Polar Bear Science Website.)
6
15. Some conclusions contradict and are ignorant of the best statistically valid
observations. For example, the Terrestrial Ecosystems Report states that “terrestrial
and freshwater ecosystems have sequestered about a quarter of the carbon dioxide
emitted to the atmosphere by human activities in the past three decades (high
confidence).” I have done the first statistically valid estimate of carbon storage and
uptake for any large area of Earth’s land,the boreal forests and eastern deciduous
forest of North America, and subtropical forests in Queensland, Australia. The
estimates of carbon uptake by vegetation used by IPCC and in major articles cited by
the reports are based on what can best be called “grab samples,” a relatively small
number of studies done at a variety of times using a variety of methods, mainly in oldgrowth areas. The results reported by IPCC overestimate carbon storage and uptake
by as much as 300 percent.
4
16. The report for policy makers on Impacts, Adaptation, and Vulnerability repeats
the assertion of previous IPCC reports that “large fraction of species” face
“increase extinction risks” (p15). Overwhelming evidence contradicts this
assertion. And it has been clearly shown that models used to make these forecasts,
such as climate envelope models and species-area curve models, make incorrect
assumptions that lead to erroneous conclusions, over-estimating extinction risks.
Surprisingly few species became extinct during the past 2.5 million years, a period
encompassing several ice ages and warm periods.
5
Among other sources, this is
based on information in the book Climate Change and Biodiversityedited by Thomas
Lovejoy, one of the leaders in the conservation of biodiversity.
6
The major species
7
known to have gone extinct during this period are 40 species of large mammals in North
America and Northern Europe. (There is a “background” extinction rate for eukaryotic
species of roughly one species per year.)"
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
136
Sorry but I'll take the word of a reputable Biologist over your word.

I'm so happy to hear this!

So presumably that means you'll be taking the word of reputable climatologists, biologists, and other experts the world over when it comes to the causes and effects of global climate change?
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
I'm so happy to hear this!

So presumably that means you'll be taking the word of reputable climatologists, biologists, and other experts the world over when it comes to the causes and effects of global climate change?

I believe he just quoted at length such a person.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
136
I believe he just quoted at length such a person.

I think you're missing my point. If I remember correctly he rejects the great majority of the science on climate change. To do that and then talk about how you accept the opinion of scientists is pretty hypocritical.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
I think you're missing my point. If I remember correctly he rejects the great majority of the science on climate change. To do that and then talk about how you accept the opinion of scientists is pretty hypocritical.

I see no disconnect in accepting one scientists conclusions over an opposing view. Just because there appears to be more data on one side of the argument does not mean that the minority argument is invalid.

Science would stop if we went solely on majority opinion. Thank goodness for the minority. Tyranny of the majority is not acceptable.

In this case, I happen to agree as well with his quoted scientist. I do not think man is the solely reason for global warming.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
6
81
Sorry but I'll take the word of a reputable Biologist over your word.

"10. ARE THERE MAJOR PROBLEMS WITH THE REPORTS? Yes, in assumptions, use
of data, and conclusions.
11. My biggest concern about the reports is that they present a number of speculative,
and sometimes incomplete, conclusions embedded in language that gives them
more scientific heft than they deserve. The reports, in other words, are "scientificsounding," rather than clearly settled and based on indisputable facts. Established facts
about the global environment exist less often in science than laymen usually think.
12. The two reports assume and/or argue that the climate warming forecast by the
global climate models is happening and will continue to happen and grow worse.
Currently these predictions are way off the reality (Figure 1). Models, like all scientific
theory, have to be tested against real-world observations. Experts in model validation say that the
climate models frequently cited in the IPCC report are little if any validated. This means that as
theory they are fundamentally scientifically unproven.
3
Figure 1: Climate model forecasts comparedto real world temperature observations(From
John Christy, University of Alabama and Alabama State Climatologist. Reproduced with
permission from him.)
13. The reports suffers from the use term “climate change” with two meanings: natural
and human-induced. These are both given as definitions in the IPCC report and are
not distinguished in the text and therefore confuse a reader. (The Climate Change
Assessment uses the term throughout including its title, but never defines it.) There are
places in the reports where only the second meaning—human induced---makes sense, so
that meaning has to be assumed. There are other places where either meaning could be
applied.
In those places where either meaning can be interpreted, if the statement is
4
assumed to be a natural change, then it is a truism, a basic characteristic of Earth’s
environment and something people have always know and experienced. If the
meaning is taken to be human-caused, then in spite of the assertions in the report,
the available data do not support the statements.
14. Some of the reports conclusions are the opposite of those given in articles
cited in defense of those conclusions.
For example, the IPCC 2014 Terrestrial Ecosystem Report states that “there is medium
confidence that rapid change in the Arctic is affecting its animals. For example, seven
of 19 subpopulations of the polar bear are declining in number” citing in support of
this an article by Vongraven and Richardson, 2011. That report states the contrary,
that the “‘decline’ is an illusion.
In addition, I have sought the available counts of the 19 subpopulations. Of these,
only three have been counted twice; the rest have been counted once. Thus no rate
of changes in the populations can be determined. The first count was done 1986 for
one subpopulation.
1

The U. S. Marine Mammal Commission, charged with the conservation of this
species, acknowledges “Accurate estimates of the current and historic sizes of polar
bear stocks are difficult to obtain for several reasons–the species‘ inaccessible habitat,
the movement of bears across international boundaries, and the costs of conducting
surveys.”
2
5
According to Dr. Susan Crockford, “out of the 13 populations for which some kind of
data exist, five populations are now classified by the PBSG [IUCN/SSC Polar Bear
Specialist Group] as ‘stable’ (two more than 2009), one is still increasing, and three
have been upgraded from ‘declining’ to ‘data deficient’. . . . That leaves four that are
still considered ‘declining’‐ two of those judgments are based primarily on concerns of
overhunting, and one is based on a statistically insignificant decline that may not be
valid and is being reassessed (and really should have been upgraded to ‘data
deficient’). That leaves only one population – Western Hudson Bay – where PBSG
biologists tenaciously blame global warming for all changes to polar bear biology, and
even then, the data supporting that conclusion is still not available.
3
“
Polar Bear Status (Source: Polar Bear Science Website.)
6
15. Some conclusions contradict and are ignorant of the best statistically valid
observations. For example, the Terrestrial Ecosystems Report states that “terrestrial
and freshwater ecosystems have sequestered about a quarter of the carbon dioxide
emitted to the atmosphere by human activities in the past three decades (high
confidence).” I have done the first statistically valid estimate of carbon storage and
uptake for any large area of Earth’s land,the boreal forests and eastern deciduous
forest of North America, and subtropical forests in Queensland, Australia. The
estimates of carbon uptake by vegetation used by IPCC and in major articles cited by
the reports are based on what can best be called “grab samples,” a relatively small
number of studies done at a variety of times using a variety of methods, mainly in oldgrowth areas. The results reported by IPCC overestimate carbon storage and uptake
by as much as 300 percent.
4
16. The report for policy makers on Impacts, Adaptation, and Vulnerability repeats
the assertion of previous IPCC reports that “large fraction of species” face
“increase extinction risks” (p15). Overwhelming evidence contradicts this
assertion. And it has been clearly shown that models used to make these forecasts,
such as climate envelope models and species-area curve models, make incorrect
assumptions that lead to erroneous conclusions, over-estimating extinction risks.
Surprisingly few species became extinct during the past 2.5 million years, a period
encompassing several ice ages and warm periods.
5
Among other sources, this is
based on information in the book Climate Change and Biodiversityedited by Thomas
Lovejoy, one of the leaders in the conservation of biodiversity.
6
The major species
7
known to have gone extinct during this period are 40 species of large mammals in North
America and Northern Europe. (There is a “background” extinction rate for eukaryotic
species of roughly one species per year.)"
I'll see your one biologist, and raise you three:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_and_ecosystems#Impacts

For the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report, experts assessed the literature on the impacts of climate change on ecosystems. Rosenzweig et al. (2007) concluded that over the last three decades, human-induced warming had likely had a discernible influence on many physical and biological systems (p. 81).[1] Schneider et al. (2007) concluded, with very high confidence, that regional temperature trends had already affected species and ecosystems around the world (p. 792).[2] With high confidence, they concluded that climate change would result in the extinction of many species and a reduction in the diversity of ecosystems (p. 792).

Terrestrial ecosystems and biodiversity: With a warming of 3°C, relative to 1990 levels, it is likely that global terrestrial vegetation would become a net source of carbon (Schneider et al., 2007:792). With high confidence, Schneider et al. (2007:788) concluded that a global mean temperature increase of around 4°C (above the 1990-2000 level) by 2100 would lead to major extinctions around the globe.
Marine ecosystems and biodiversity: With very high confidence, Schneider et al. (2007:792) concluded that a warming of 2°C above 1990 levels would result in mass mortality of coral reefs globally.
Freshwater ecosystems: Above about a 4°C increase in global mean temperature by 2100 (relative to 1990-2000), Schneider et al. (2007:789) concluded, with high confidence, that many freshwater species would become extinct.

Studying the association between Earth climate and extinctions over the past 520 million years, scientists from the University of York write, "The global temperatures predicted for the coming centuries may trigger a new ‘mass extinction event’, where over 50 per cent of animal and plant species would be wiped out."[3]

Since my "reputable scientists" outnumber yours 3 to 1, you of course believe "my" scientists, right?
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,731
428
126
I'm so happy to hear this!

So presumably that means you'll be taking the word of reputable climatologists, biologists, and other experts the world over when it comes to the causes and effects of global climate change?

Sure.

Hopefully biologists will stop talking about ocean acidification, climatologists will stop claiming to be statistics experts or to claim exactly what tree ring sizes actually mean (especially since the tree rings do seem to diverge for the last 60 years or so), computer modelers will stop claiming models output is actual data, etc.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
136
Sure.

Hopefully biologists will stop talking about ocean acidification, climatologists will stop claiming to be statistics experts or to claim exactly what tree ring sizes actually mean (especially since the tree rings do seem to diverge for the last 60 years or so), computer modelers will stop claiming models output is actual data, etc.

Ahhh, so in other words you're willing to accept what scientists say so long as it says what you want it to.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
136
I see no disconnect in accepting one scientists conclusions over an opposing view. Just because there appears to be more data on one side of the argument does not mean that the minority argument is invalid.

Science would stop if we went solely on majority opinion. Thank goodness for the minority. Tyranny of the majority is not acceptable.

In this case, I happen to agree as well with his quoted scientist. I do not think man is the solely reason for global warming.

I'm unaware of a single credible scientist that has ever claimed man is the sole reason for global warming.

If you were an expert in climate science or a related field and wanted to disagree with the scientific consensus I think that's a very valid position to take, that's what science is all about. Laypeople choosing to identify with extreme minority opinions that just so happen to dovetail with their preferred ideology is nothing more than motivated reasoning.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,731
428
126
I'll see your one biologist, and raise you three:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_and_ecosystems#Impacts



Since my "reputable scientists" outnumber yours 3 to 1, you of course believe "my" scientists, right?

Shame that the non modeled reefs don't like to comply.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/340/6128/69.abstract

Recovery of an Isolated Coral Reef System Following Severe Disturbance
James P. Gilmour1,*, Luke D. Smith1,†, Andrew J. Heyward1, Andrew H. Baird2, Morgan S. Pratchett2
+ Author Affiliations

1Australian Institute of Marine Science (AIMS), University of Western Australia Oceans Institute, Perth, WA 6009, Australia.
2ARC Centre of Excellence for Coral Reef Studies, James Cook University, Townsville, QLD 4811, Australia.
+ Author Notes

↵† Present address: Woodside Energy Limited, Perth, WA 6000, Australia.

↵*Corresponding author. E-mail: j.gilmour@aims.gov.au
ABSTRACTEDITOR'S SUMMARY
Coral reef recovery from major disturbance is hypothesized to depend on the arrival of propagules from nearby undisturbed reefs. Therefore, reefs isolated by distance or current patterns are thought to be highly vulnerable to catastrophic disturbance. We found that on an isolated reef system in north Western Australia, coral cover increased from 9% to 44% within 12 years of a coral bleaching event, despite a 94% reduction in larval supply for 6 years after the bleaching. The initial increase in coral cover was the result of high rates of growth and survival of remnant colonies, followed by a rapid increase in juvenile recruitment as colonies matured. We show that isolated reefs can recover from major disturbance, and that the benefits of their isolation from chronic anthropogenic pressures can outweigh the costs of limited connectivity.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/gcb.12390/full

Incorporating adaptive responses into future projections of coral bleaching
Cheryl A. Logan1,2,*, John P. Dunne3, C. Mark Eakin4 and Simon D. Donner5
Article first published online: 28 OCT 2013
DOI: 10.1111/gcb.12390

Abstract
Climate warming threatens to increase mass coral bleaching events, and several studies have projected the demise of tropical coral reefs this century. However, recent evidence indicates corals may be able to respond to thermal stress though adaptive processes (e.g., genetic adaptation, acclimatization, and symbiont shuffling). How these mechanisms might influence warming-induced bleaching remains largely unknown. This study compared how different adaptive processes could affect coral bleaching projections. We used the latest bias-corrected global sea surface temperature (SST) output from the NOAA/GFDL Earth System Model 2 (ESM2M) for the preindustrial period through 2100 to project coral bleaching trajectories. Initial results showed that, in the absence of adaptive processes, application of a preindustrial climatology to the NOAA Coral Reef Watch bleaching prediction method overpredicts the present-day bleaching frequency. This suggests that corals may have already responded adaptively to some warming over the industrial period. We then modified the prediction method so that the bleaching threshold either permanently increased in response to thermal history (e.g., simulating directional genetic selection) or temporarily increased for 2–10 years in response to a bleaching event (e.g., simulating symbiont shuffling). A bleaching threshold that changes relative to the preceding 60 years of thermal history reduced the frequency of mass bleaching events by 20–80% compared with the ‘no adaptive response’ prediction model by 2100, depending on the emissions scenario. When both types of adaptive responses were applied, up to 14% more reef cells avoided high-frequency bleaching by 2100. However, temporary increases in bleaching thresholds alone only delayed the occurrence of high-frequency bleaching by ca. 10 years in all but the lowest emissions scenario. Future research should test the rate and limit of different adaptive responses for coral species across latitudes and ocean basins to determine if and how much corals can respond to increasing thermal stress.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,731
428
126
Ahhh, so in other words you're willing to accept what scientists say so long as it says what you want it to.

I just have trouble to take the word of scientists that say stuff that the real world contradict.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
136
Isn't that exactly what you're doing and rationalizing your belief using consensus fallacy?

Uhmmm, no.


From your own link:

Exception: Sometimes there are good reasons to think that the common belief is held by people who do have good evidence for believing. For example, if virtually all of earth scientists accept that the universe is approximately 13.7 billion years old, it is wise to believe them because they will be able to present objective and empirical evidence as to why they believe.

AGW clearly fits very comfortably into that range. You should read your own links better.


That would imply that the scientific consensus around global warming does not exist or is exaggerated. Considering that actual study has been put into this and found that not to be the case, this one would also not apply.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,455
33,160
136
I just have trouble to take the word of scientists that say stuff that the real world contradict.
Here's a nickel's worth of free advice:

If science contradicts your "real world," your "real world" isn't based on reality.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
If you were an expert in climate science or a related field and wanted to disagree with the scientific consensus I think that's a very valid position to take, that's what science is all about. Laypeople choosing to identify with extreme minority opinions that just so happen to dovetail with their preferred ideology is nothing more than motivated reasoning.

Ah yes, the extremist ideologues.

In short, no. I have no doubt climate is changing. I also have no doubt man can't stop whatever the change is. I also know that the best way to mitigate the effects on man is to become wealthier. We become wealthier by increasing our energy use so that poor countries can better withstand any such changes to come. With wealth comes the ability to invest in more efficient energy production which then opens doors to investment in infrastructure and everything that can mean.

That, in my opinion, is your inconvenient truth you do not want to own.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,731
428
126
Here's a nickel's worth of free advice:

If science contradicts your "real world," your "real world" isn't based on reality.

If the real world contradicts your "science", your "science" isn't based on reality.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
136
Ah yes, the extremist ideologues.

In short, no. I have no doubt climate is changing. I also have no doubt man can't stop whatever the change is. I also know that the best way to mitigate the effects on man is to become wealthier. We become wealthier by increasing our energy use so that poor countries can better withstand any such changes to come. With wealth comes the ability to invest in more efficient energy production which then opens doors to investment in infrastructure and everything that can mean.

That, in my opinion, is your inconvenient truth you do not want to own.

You are welcome to your opinion, but it stands at odds with science. You're welcome to do that, but you shouldn't be surprised when others don't join you.
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
AGW clearly fits very comfortably into that range. You should read your own links better.
It's one thing to think AGW is one of many factors that affect our climate...and quite another to say the "science" proves it is a overwhelming factor that will cause dire consequences and imminent disasters if we don't "fix" it immediately. This branch of science is still quite young and there are still large uncertanties in several major forcing mechanisms known to affect our climate which have nothing to do with carbon dioxide.

That would imply that the scientific consensus around global warming does not exist or is exaggerated. Considering that actual study has been put into this and found that not to be the case, this one would also not apply.
Please link a credible study from a reputable group of scientists that hasn't already been discredited for its bias or lack of objectivity.
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
Here's a nickel's worth of free advice:

If science contradicts your "real world," your "real world" isn't based on reality.
There are about 40 models which reflect our current understanding of our incredibly complex climate which are used to make predictions based on current scientific theory. Scientific theories are testable and make falsifiable predictions. ALL 40 models substantially failed to predict the cooling we've experienced the last 15-20 years. What does that tell you about the "real world"?
 

raildogg

Lifer
Aug 24, 2004
12,892
572
126
Carry on with your industrialization and technology. After all, we modern humans got to have our monies and gadgets. The air, the oceans, the rivers, the land can take a back seat for now... right? Isn't this what we teach our kids?
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
7,162
424
126
^ Thanks for enlightening us from your hamster-powered abacus.