A question of the possibility of the existence of god(s).

[J.Wilkins]

If God is all powerful (omnipotent) and according to the Bible he is omniscient (all knowing) then he knows every choice anyone will ever make, he will know whether you end up in hell or heaven and he has known this since before you were ever born.

So if the God of the Bible is true, you cannot have free will since your choices are all known and your end station (heaven or hell) is already known before you were even born or actually before God created the universe.

If this isn't true, the God of the Bible does not exist and if some other God that is NOT the god of the bible exists, how would you know his will and if he is a God, wouldn't he make his will known?

Since it then cannot be the bible or any other scripture (the same problem exists with all gods apart from the Norse gods but we know where lightning comes from now so we don't need a god to explain that any more) and an impotent god doesn't make much sense there is no reason what so ever to come to a conclusion "some god(s) exist".

So no empirical evidence and no logical reason.

And yet, it's spread as a disease from parent to child and I wonder why.

For my parents it was the case that if you believe in punishment and reward then religion has it's place. Neither of them were theists in any shape or form but used the guise of religion to keep me and my brothers and sister on a straight and narrow path with threats of hell and promises of heaven...

Is it worthwhile for that cause alone?

 

[sandorski]

I think there is some merit in Religion as a Social and Ethics Teaching institution. However, all too often Religions have aspects within them that makes them problematic. Most often these come about due to old texts espousing values that have long been abandoned as barbaric. Religion sometimes ignores those faults, but other times they embrace them and that's where the most damage comes from. Dogmatism and "Truth" are 2 other issues that lead to problems that are damaging to progress. Yet another problem with them is that they attract Con Artists who find it very lucrative to suck the wealth out of the faithful.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

It's a matter of perspective. From a human standpoint, we have free will. I might also add that knowing and having the ability to change outcomes does not equate to control. Finally, the Bible was written by man even if divinely inspired. That means the perspectives and world views have human bias. It's the trap of describing colors to the blind. Finally, logic is a construct of man. You can not use it to prove or disprove the existence of a being beyond the understanding of man.

 

[davidcarey]

Predeterminism .

 

[J.Wilkins]

I think there is some merit in Religion as a Social and Ethics Teaching institution. However, all too often Religions have aspects within them that makes them problematic. Most often these come about due to old texts espousing values that have long been abandoned as barbaric. Religion sometimes ignores those faults, but other times they embrace them and that's where the most damage comes from. Dogmatism and "Truth" are 2 other issues that lead to problems that are damaging to progress. Yet another problem with them is that they attract Con Artists who find it very lucrative to suck the wealth out of the faithful.

This is entirely unrelated to the question asked.

 

[sandorski]

This is entirely unrelated to the question asked.

Perhaps not the first question, but it is related to the last.

 

[J.Wilkins]

It's a matter of perspective. From a human standpoint, we have free will. I might also add that knowing and having the ability to change outcomes does not equate to control. Finally, the Bible was written by man even if divinely inspired. That means the perspectives and world views have human bias. It's the trap of describing colors to the blind. Finally, logic is a construct of man. You can not use it to prove or disprove the existence of a being beyond the understanding of man.

You are missing the point, from no perspective can a pre determined choice be freely made.

The experience of free will doesn't actually matter if you don't have free will, does it? Isn't it a matter of God having directed everything absolutely and if so, does he not send men to rape babies at times since they would have no other choice? If God's will be done and he cannot be wrong, then he literally gave you cancer.

You are mustering an explanation of how scripture works as an excuse of how interpretations change but I do read Hebrew in it's origin and I can assure you that it's not an interpretation from the oldest evidence we have of scripture (original Torah) so it's not a matter of interpretation.

Of course, you can reject what doesn't suit your will but this is the original copy of the first text... Everything else was built upon it and if it is false, then per definition all other works must be false too, right?

Your end reply is a cop out and you know it.

You can't provide both a source that you can understand and a deity that is impossible to understand at the same time, that just doesn't work. If what you were saying was true then we can skip everything about religion because we cannot understand the mind of God by reading that bunch of human inadequacies.

 

[J.Wilkins]

Perhaps not the first question, but it is related to the last.

The last question is related to the entirety of the post.

Perhaps I was unclear. My apologies for that.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Show me where the bad rabbi touched you. You went from discussing to rabid in one post. I say again, knowing does not mean taking action. You can rail against God for not taking action to prevent evil all you want. However, that in no way implies he originated that evil.
I said nothing about translation. Were the authors of the Bible not human? The Bible is not an agreement or contract, it is an article of faith. No matter how hard you push, you can't force God into your round post hole.

 

[J.Wilkins]

Show me where the bad rabbi touched you. You went from discussing to rabid in one post. I say again, knowing does not mean taking action. You can rail against God for not taking action to prevent evil all you want. However, that in no way implies he originated that evil.
I said nothing about translation. Were the authors of the Bible not human? The Bible is not an agreement or contract, it is an article of faith. No matter how hard you push, you can't force God into your round post hole.

First of all, do you believe that this answer earns you any IQ points, you are looking like a right arse now not being able to accept scriptural facts as something you'd follow but still defend.

I don't get how this is even possible, the cognitive dissonance between believing something and arguing that it is false is quite a bit too mugh.

You are trying your best to act dumb not to get the point, I've had had intelligent discussions with you and I do not accept that you let go of all of your intelligent mind on this idea to play pretend that God knowing your every thought, action and feeling doesn't change your idea of free will. You can ONLY have the thoughts, do the actions and have the feelings that God has deciced for you and yet you argue that this is free will?

Let me illustrate this with something that even a master bullshitter cannot get around.

Q: God knows you will rape your neighbours child tomorrow, its a two month old boy.

Can you choose not to rape your neighbours child tomorrow?

That is a yes or no question.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

First of all, do you believe that this answer earns you any IQ points, you are looking like a right arse now not being able to accept scriptural facts as something you'd follow but still defend.

I don't get how this is even possible, the cognitive dissonance between believing something and arguing that it is false is quite a bit too mugh.

You are trying your best to act dumb not to get the point, I've had had intelligent discussions with you and I do not accept that you let go of all of your intelligent mind on this idea to play pretend that God knowing your every thought, action and feeling doesn't change your idea of free will. You can ONLY have the thoughts, do the actions and have the feelings that God has deciced for you and yet you argue that this is free will?

Let me illustrate this with something that even a master bullshitter cannot get around.

Q: God knows you will rape your neighbours child tomorrow, its a two month old boy.

Can you choose not to rape your neighbours child tomorrow?

That is a yes or no question.

It would be your choice to rape the neighbors child not Gods. Let me know when you're done exercising your ego.

 

[Fardringle]

Let me illustrate this with something that even a master bullshitter cannot get around.

Q: God knows you will rape your neighbours child tomorrow, its a two month old boy.

Can you choose not to rape your neighbours child tomorrow?

That is a yes or no question.

I find it highly amusing that you are trying to argue that if there is a God, then we can't possibly have free will, when YOU are trying to force someone else to give an answer that you want without letting them have the option to answer on their own. Are you God? Or do you just want to pretend that you are?

The answer to your hypothetical question is YES. You have the ability to choose what you will do. The possibility that someone else knows what choice you will make has absolutely zero effect on your ability to choose, unless that other person attempts to force you to pick a certain choice and then that might have an influence on the final decision.

At dinner time at my house, I can almost always guess what my daughters will say when asked if they want to eat the meal that has been prepared. This is not because I have already decided for them ahead of time and forced them to make that choice. It is because I know them well enough to know what foods they like and what foods they do not like. They make the choice, I just happen to know what choice they are likely to make. They do surprise me once in a while, but I'm not a perfect, all-knowing, all-seeing God.

An all-knowing, all-seeing God would know us well enough to know what choices we are going to make all of the time. That doesn't mean God made the choices for us and forced us into those choices, it just means that a God who knows us a lot better than I know my daughters can know what our choices will be.

 

[J.Wilkins]

It would be your choice to rape the neighbors child not Gods. Let me know when you're done exercising your ego.

So you're saying that I can prove God wrong and go against what he knows I'll do? Then how is he a God?

Also, you didn't answer the question.

 

[J.Wilkins]

I find it highly amusing that you are trying to argue that if there is a God, then we can't possibly have free will, when YOU are trying to force someone else to give an answer that you want without letting them have the option to answer on their own. Are you God? Or do you just want to pretend that you are?

The answer to your hypothetical question is YES. You have the ability to choose what you will do. The possibility that someone else knows what choice you will make has absolutely zero effect on your ability to choose, unless that other person attempts to force you to pick a certain choice and then that might have an influence on the final decision.

At dinner time at my house, I can almost always guess what my daughters will say when asked if they want to eat the meal that has been prepared. This is not because I have already decided for them ahead of time and forced them to make that choice. It is because I know them well enough to know what foods they like and what foods they do not like. They make the choice, I just happen to know what choice they are likely to make. They do surprise me once in a while, but I'm not a perfect, all-knowing, all-seeing God.

An all-knowing, all-seeing God would know us well enough to know what choices we are going to make all of the time. That doesn't mean God made the choices for us and forced us into those choices, it just means that a God who knows us a lot better than I know my daughters can know what our choices will be.

No, I'm specifically arguing that the tenets of the Abrahamic religions are incompatible with free will.

If you cannot understand the concept discussed, then why are you replying?

You didn't even answer the question but rather you alluded to YOU being all knowing like God supposedly is and that all knowing means you have a hunch.

So is God not all powerful but relying on hunches like a common man according to you?

 

[Fardringle]

So you're saying that I can prove God wrong and go against what he knows I'll do? Then how is he a God?

Also, you didn't answer the question.

No, I'm saying that God as described in the Bible knows everything about everything, and therefore knows what choice you are going to make. If you are the type of person who would make a decision just to "prove God wrong", then that is the choice that you would make, and an all-knowing God knows that. Your description is not an accurate portrayal of the Abrahamic God. You are claiming that God decides everything for us ahead of time so we have to follow what was decided. The God portrayed in the Bible simply knows what choices you will make because He knows you. If YOU cannot understand the concept, why are you insisting that you do but nobody else does, even though the rest of us are the ones who actually do understand it?

And yes, I did answer the question.

 

[J.Wilkins]

No, I'm saying that God as described in the Bible knows everything about everything, and therefore knows what choice you are going to make. If you are the type of person who would make a decision just to "prove God wrong", then that is the choice that you would make, and an all-knowing God knows that. Your description is not an accurate portrayal of the Abrahamic God. You are claiming that God decides everything for us ahead of time so we have to follow what was decided. The God portrayed in the Bible simply knows what choices you will make because He knows you. If YOU cannot understand the concept, why are you insisting that you do but nobody else does, even though the rest of us are the ones who actually do understand it?

And yes, I did answer the question.

First of all, I'm claiming no such thing, I'm merely remarking on the logical incoherency that your choices can be absolutely known (and per the Bible there are no chapters and verses describing how god is semi powerful and has a good chance to know your choices, there is mention of absolute knowledge which is what I'm referring to. Being dishonest and lying about it doesn't really earn you anything, you know) and that humans have free will.

There are only two options here, either all choices are known absolutely and you have no free will or God is not all knowing and you do have free will.

This was illustrated by the question you play pretend you answered while you really didn't, it's a yes or no question and you didn't answer it. You gave a response that wasn't an answer through changing the parameters in a horridly dishonest way to make it seem as if God is a betting man who like a father kinda knows what his kids will choose but can be wrong. You also added that he cannot be wrong... That is a logical incoherency all in itself and the cognitive dissonance required to come up with that is one that I have never come across before.

 

[Fardringle]

The fact that God knows us well enough to know our answers ahead of time does not mean that we do not have free will, just as the fact that I (usually) know what my daughters will choose for dinner does not mean that they do not have the ability to choose what they want or if they will eat what is offered.

And again, yes, I did answer your hypothetical scenario. You asked if it's possible for us to actually make a choice to do something (or not) if God already knows what our choice will be. I said yes, and explained why the answer is yes. If you choose not to accept that answer and the reality that you simply don't understand what you are talking about (your claimed definition of the way God "MUST" be in order to fit your desired outcome), then that is your choice. I didn't say anything about betting. I only gave an example to show that if I, with my limited and imperfect knowledge, can accurately guess what my daughters will choose, why can't a God with all perfect knowledge be able to know what choices we will make?

Just as I was pretty sure that you would come back with another silly argument, ignoring or rejecting the answers you were given, and I knew that based on only knowing you from the few posts you have made in this discussion...

The logical incoherency is that you are claiming that if there is a God who knows us, then that God already decided everything for us, and if God did that, then that God isn't God because God wouldn't do that. Which is a silly and cyclical argument designed to lead to the point you want while ignoring the fact that it is based on a false premise. The ONLY part of that argument that is correct is the last bit, which is, "God wouldn't do that."

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

So you're saying that I can prove God wrong and go against what he knows I'll do? Then how is he a God?

Also, you didn't answer the question.

Reading is fundamental. I said you would choose to rape the child. Don't ask why. It's your demented question. I'm done playing with your ego.

 

[J.Wilkins]

Reading is fundamental. I said you would choose to rape the child. Don't ask why. It's your demented question. I'm done playing with your ego.

No, you are saying that there is choice which implies that you can make a choice and if so then God's knowledge is per definition false no matter what you choose.

You've been horribly defensive in a way that doesn't fit the forum from your first reply and full of insults. Perhaps you should butt out of discussions in this particular forum and stick with insulting people elsewhere because you cannot defend your ideas in the slightest?

I DO NOT take you for an idiot and I therefore must presume that your wilful dishonesty is a conscious choice and if that is all you have to bring to the table then what is the point of even attempting to have a discussion?

In reality you are doing nothing but saying that there is choice and thus God is impotent and it doesn't really matter how convoluted your idiocy gets, that is still the only conclusion that can be drawn from your reply.

 

[J.Wilkins]

The fact that God knows us well enough to know our answers ahead of time does not mean that we do not have free will, just as the fact that I (usually) know what my daughters will choose for dinner does not mean that they do not have the ability to choose what they want or if they will eat what is offered.

This is COMPLETELY irrelevant and has nothing what so ever to do with anything discussed here.

1. God is all knowing, he knows every single choice you will do and he has known it since before he created the universe. That is the argument of being all knowing.

2. God allows for complete free will so you are free to make your OWN choices independent of anything and if you choose wrong then you are to blame.

Those two are fundamentally incompatible concepts and only ONE of them can be true.

To illustrate how this works, record a day of yours using a camcorder and then watch it, can the person in the video choose something other than what is recorded?

That is the way omniscience works in the sense of God and it's not the only standard set where this is true. God exists outside of time and space which means that all of recorded history is also all future for God and thus everything is pre-determined.

The Calvinists get that and are following that concept of the religion while others just try to divert, deflect or say that it has to do with "ah, ya know, God knows you really well so he knows what you will choose, just like a parent" which is an explanation suited for young children who cannot consider the possibility that a child can go against his parents expectations and if the concept works like that with God then God is per definition not omniscient and thus not all powerfule but rather someone who kinda knows some stuff but can be wrong on that too...

 

[Fardringle]

This is COMPLETELY irrelevant and has nothing what so ever to do with anything discussed here.

It is NOT irrelevant. It is the exact answer and a simple explanation of the answer to show why your fallacious argument is wrong. You just refuse to accept that it is. And you have the ability to choose to refuse the answer, just as we have the ability to choose to no longer argue with you because you don't really want an answer to your question. You just want other people to praise you for being "wise" and coming up with a completely incorrect theory based on false assumptions.

 

[sandorski]

The fact that God knows us well enough to know our answers ahead of time does not mean that we do not have free will, just as the fact that I (usually) know what my daughters will choose for dinner does not mean that they do not have the ability to choose what they want or if they will eat what is offered.

And again, yes, I did answer your hypothetical scenario. You asked if it's possible for us to actually make a choice to do something (or not) if God already knows what our choice will be. I said yes, and explained why the answer is yes. If you choose not to accept that answer and the reality that you simply don't understand what you are talking about (your claimed definition of the way God "MUST" be in order to fit your desired outcome), then that is your choice. I didn't say anything about betting. I only gave an example to show that if I, with my limited and imperfect knowledge, can accurately guess what my daughters will choose, why can't a God with all perfect knowledge be able to know what choices we will make?

Just as I was pretty sure that you would come back with another silly argument, ignoring or rejecting the answers you were given, and I knew that based on only knowing you from the few posts you have made in this discussion...

The logical incoherency is that you are claiming that if there is a God who knows us, then that God already decided everything for us, and if God did that, then that God isn't God because God wouldn't do that. Which is a silly and cyclical argument designed to lead to the point you want while ignoring the fact that it is based on a false premise. The ONLY part of that argument that is correct is the last bit, which is, "God wouldn't do that."

"God" made the Choice as to what You would Choose to do when it made the Universe the way it did. That's why "Free Will" can not exist within the concepts of the attributes of "God" given by the Abrahamic religions. Either the attributes about "God" are wrong or "Free Will" does not exist, because they are in contradiction with each other.

 

[J.Wilkins]

It is NOT irrelevant. It is the exact answer and a simple explanation of the answer to show why your fallacious argument is wrong. You just refuse to accept that it is. And you have the ability to choose to refuse the answer, just as we have the ability to choose to no longer argue with you because you don't really want an answer to your question. You just want other people to praise you for being "wise" and coming up with a completely incorrect theory based on false assumptions.

No, I actually go by the definitions used in the Bible, not your rewriting and yet proclaiming to be the same which is just dishonesty bottled up in a non-argument you play pretend is valid.

I'm afraid that if you are not going by the terms "all knowing" but rather "expecting people to do things like a parent would" then you ARE the one with the problem here. You cannot change Biblical language into whatever you feel like to explain something that doesn't fit unless you are prepared to dismiss the Bible as a falsehood and declare a different version of God to be true.

If everything is absolutely known it would be as if had already happened, as if it was part of history. If God is all knowing you cannot change a choice in the future any more than you can change a choice in your past, for a God that is outside of time. This coincides with the idea that God is outside of time because if you are outside of time, all future is recorded history and as unchangeable as the past.

I really don't know if you are pretending not to get it or if you REALLY don't get it but either way, this discussion is over until you can actually answer the quesiton without diversions to how God isn't at all like in the bible but rather this guy who knows some stuff but not all stuff and kinda knows what you might choose but you can choose differently because he just kinda knows...

Your buddy god is NOT the God of the Bible, period.

 

[J.Wilkins]

"God" made the Choice as to what You would Choose to do when it made the Universe the way it did. That's why "Free Will" can not exist within the concepts of the attributes of "God" given by the Abrahamic religions. Either the attributes about "God" are wrong or "Free Will" does not exist, because they are in contradiction with each other.

Well, yes and no, omniscience means that all future is recorded history in the mind of God. It didn't become that way by god creating the universe, it always had to be that way for the concept to work.

Even then, it's an incoherent concept given that God knows everything he will do too and yet according to the Bible he changed his mind. The whole idea is on incoherent fallacy after another and all we have are people who play pretend that the bible is correct while explaining that it isn't.

 

[PowerEngineer]

The fact that God knows us well enough to know our answers ahead of time does not mean that we do not have free will, just as the fact that I (usually) know what my daughters will choose for dinner does not mean that they do not have the ability to choose what they want or if they will eat what is offered.

<sigh>

Experience tells me that debates along these lines seldom lead anywhere, but perhaps I'm demonstrating my own free will by giving into the temptation to weigh in.

I believe I understand the point you are trying to make with your daughter/dinner analogy. Your guess of what she might choose to eat has no direct impact on her decision making process, and therefore she is still "free" to make her choice. I suggest this is most true in a situation (perhaps in a restaurant) where she can choose from anything on the menu. But her freedom to choose is implicitly a bit restricted by your choice of the restaurant that you brought her to. And even further restricted if you decide to cook a particular meal at home. The point I am trying to make is that restrictions of the options available to choose from are in essence restrictions on freedom of choice. The more you restrict her options on what she can eat, the closer you come to making her choice of what to eat for her. Taking it to the extreme, if you only serve her green beans then (eventually) she will be hungry enough to choose to eat them. Now you didn't force feed the green beans to her, but I'd still suggest that her decision to eat them wasn't really an exercise of "free will".

I see the christian god problem with "free will" in this same light. If god created the universe and everything in it, then god has preprogrammed the options that each of us will be presented with each time we need to make a decision. Knowing his creations so well, he/she/it also knows what our decisions will be. The outcomes of our lives (in the "judgement day" sense) are preordained

Put another way, our lives are like individual corn mazes that god has built for each of us. While we get to choose which way to turn at every intersection, our only options are those the god has built into the maze. And where we exit the maze has been essentially preordained (in the heaven or hell sense).

I can accept it if you want to say this is still "free will", but it doesn't seem like "free will" to me. The seeming contradiction between a supposedly benevolent god and an eternal judgment based a preordained outcome is too much of a contradiction for me to accept, and is one of the reasons that belief in a christian god doesn't make sense to me.

My two cents...