A question of IT salary...

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

MysticLlama

Golden Member
Sep 19, 2000
1,003
0
0
Heh, I just got a funny e-mail from my dad today, and I haven't even talked to him about any of this stuff, it was just one of those things that he forwards...

1. Don't be irreplaceable; if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted.

:)

 

Saltin

Platinum Member
Jul 21, 2001
2,175
0
0
I'd just like to echo some of the advice that others are giving here. When I came out of school last year, I knew my biggest problem was going to be my attitude and argumentitive nature. There was nothing more frustrating then watching my "boss" fumble around with things he clearly didn't understand, but I had to learn to keep my mouth shut and not upstage him.
Progressing in a career requires a mixed bag of talent. One of those talents is certainly technical knowhow....another big one is learning to play well with others.

I knew that technically I was strong enough to progress, but I also knew my attitude needed adjusting. I worked hard on it, swallowed a few pills I didn't like, and now I'm the Network Admin at a decent sized software house that is a top competitor in it's field. Things happen fast for guys in IT that are clever and people persons. Never forget that.

As for pay, my thoughts.... when you are young, you are never going to get what you are worth. Just make sure you have enough to pay your bills,save a bit and keep a few beers in the fridge. Concentrate on learning and improving your work ethic. Rejoice that you are not flipping burgers, serving drinks, digging ditches, or worse....unemployed. Try to keep things in perspective. Jobs are like anything else you have....sooner or later there is a tendancy to take them for granted. Try to be aware of that. Everything else will fall into place. I have no doubt that one day I will make enough money to be satisfied with my salary. You shouldn't have any doubts either.
 

mboy

Diamond Member
Jul 29, 2001
3,309
0
0
Originally posted by: Saltin
I'd just like to echo some of the advice that others are giving here. When I came out of school last year, I knew my biggest problem was going to be my attitude and argumentitive nature. There was nothing more frustrating then watching my "boss" fumble around with things he clearly didn't understand, but I had to learn to keep my mouth shut and not upstage him.
Progressing in a career requires a mixed bag of talent. One of those talents is certainly technical knowhow....another big one is learning to play well with others.

I knew that technically I was strong enough to progress, but I also knew my attitude needed adjusting. I worked hard on it, swallowed a few pills I didn't like, and now I'm the Network Admin at a decent sized software house that is a top competitor in it's field. Things happen fast for guys in IT that are clever and people persons. Never forget that.

As for pay, my thoughts.... when you are young, you are never going to get what you are worth. Just make sure you have enough to pay your bills,save a bit and keep a few beers in the fridge. Concentrate on learning and improving your work ethic. Rejoice that you are not flipping burgers, serving drinks, digging ditches, or worse....unemployed. Try to keep things in perspective. Jobs are like anything else you have....sooner or later there is a tendancy to take them for granted. Try to be aware of that. Everything else will fall into place. I have no doubt that one day I will make enough money to be satisfied with my salary. You shouldn't have any doubts either.


Wise words from a seamingle wise man. I am in the same position as you initially were Saltin with the same type of personality. I am taking your words to heart. Very wise indeed!

 

mobogasm

Golden Member
Oct 25, 1999
1,033
0
0
Nice to see some people from tha good old WA in here on anandtech. Just thought I'd mention I'm in the area. I attend University of Washington and am an Assistant Network Admin at a Fortune 500 Title Insurance Co. We have about 30 offices in washington alone, and an office or two over in spokane where mechBgon is in fact. Have to remote support them and all of WA and Idaho.

MysticLlama: just out of curiosity, what kinda business do you work at? apologize if you already stated it, didn't see it anywhere.

mechBgon: you say you work at a non profit organization. You guys wouldn't happen to be looking for any older pc's are you. Were looking to get some tax write offs and are donating older pc's (p2's / Celeron's) to churches and schools and other non-profits. We are currently looking for a non-profit to donate our old spokane office computers to.
 

mechBgon

Super Moderator<br>Elite Member
Oct 31, 1999
30,699
1
0
mobogasm, to be specific, I work at Lutheran Community Services Northwest downtown (7 S. Howard St, second floor). :) We're the Spokane branch, and there are others sprinkled around the Northwest: map of office locations

My branch is actually the envy of the other branches, for having a relatively decent computer fleet and a great bunch of users who trust their IT people. Some of our other branches are not nearly as fortunate in either respect. :( Since I'm seeing the regional IS Director in a meeting tomorrow morning, I'll ask him if he'd be interested in talking with your outfit about such a mutually-beneficial arrangement, and I'll get back with you if so. Some of the other branches might be enormously helped by the retirement of Pentium 133's and such.

Haha, if you guys needed a basic PC maintenance person/hand-holder on a part-time basis, I am looking for some extra hours... ;) I love my job and my users, but they can't give me enough hours to qualify for benefits at the moment. I'm also a highly-qualified bicycle mechanic, but I'm trying to avoid going back into that field :D It did teach me a lot about customer service and communication, though.

Thanks again for mentioning the possibility of donating some PC's. Like I said, I'll get back with you one way or the other. :D edit: if you're looking for good outfits to donate to, but the Spokane computers need to be retired to a Spokane location, perhaps the Martin Luther King Jr. center, or the local battered womens' center (can't recall the name ATM) would be good. I can probably nominate some more if needed.
 

Dug

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2000
3,469
6
81
MysticLlama

You can't think like you do and survive. As hard as it may seem you have to do a 180 at work and make it seem like its the greatest thing in the world. And you have to convince everyone at work the same thing. No derogetory comments, no rolling of the eyes, no agreeing with other co-workers if they aren't happy, no talking bad about your pay, no nothing.

You can not think like a worker bee. You have to be smarter then the person in charge of you, without being a smart ass. Constant positive attitute at the work place (I'm not talking the bubbly, airheaded type) will give you benefits you've never imagined.

People will remember you, good, bad, or indifferent. Make sure its good. When your co-workers or bosses talk among themselves (and they will) you don't want them saying stuff like - yeah that MysticLlama's a nice guy but he was whining about his salery again. Or- that MysticLllama was complaining about installing something on Joe's computer again.

All the tiny little things you can do, do make the difference. They may seem insugnificant at the time, but they all add up. It only takes one negative thing to destroy 50 positive accomplishments. You don't see it this way because all you think about are the positive accomplishments. But what other people see is the one negative thing you did.

Mark down all of your accomplishments, keep a record of everything you do (even the little things, like puting paper in the printer), all the days you show up on time, all the extra time you put in, all the things that aren't part of your job discription. The next time you ask for a raise. Submit this paper. (It should be about 50 pages long.) There's your justification. Not what somebody, somewhere else makes doing the same thing. (Your bosses don't care about that)

sp- for all my spelling mistakes:)
 

sep

Platinum Member
Aug 1, 2001
2,553
0
76
MysticLIama,

First thing, Great post. I bet you didn?t think you?d get this much attention. Your post interests me a lot. Why you ask. See, I was once in this position awhile back. I myself never went to college. I went to a small IT trade school. I got an internship with a small consulting company and quickly started growing with them. Soon I was the lead tech (harware/network/os/etc.) and then had two people under me. I worked my way up learning everything I could. I even had a network at home (that was rare in 1994. I also noticed that I was under paid and that the 2 programmers were getting a lot more $s and flexibility than me. Everything I learned wasn?t from school, but on the Job! These other 2 under me (not the programmers) just could learn what I had to offer. I do agree you have to have an interest or love for this field. After putting 6 years in to the company I realized something. I was becoming a BIG fish in a little pond and unless the pond got bigger I would definitely suffocate. So, I kept focus and waited until the timing was right. It paid off. I found a job, paying twice the amount, in a big company.

In this big company I quickly noticed that I was only a big fish in a little pond. Once in the lake I was once again a little fish. This was a switch, because I was use to being the kind of guy who knows everything. After being in the company for a year I wanted to stretch out and start to program more (you can program remotely, night or day, get my drift). A group needed an entry-level programmer (beginner) to be molded in to working on a certain large, very large application. I started at the same salary. I quickly became certified in the tools I was using to develop and started to become very proficient.

Then we need to pull in someone to help with the coding/maintaining of the project. So they hire a person with 2 more years experience then me (4years vs. 2 years). Giving him a bonus, more vacation and of course a higher salary. Well okay you say?ya right! After time goes on I notice we?re level in programming this language and I?m more knowledgeable in the other areas (hardware background and I still keep that going). So once again I wait for the right time and I demand more salary. Because of the project I was working on I got a large increase.

Now after reading that here my thoughts to you.
You ask could it be that you don?t have a four-year degree? Yes I think its part of it. People that went to college for 4+ years don?t want to see people that didn?t get paid the same or more than them.

I think your in same situation I was being a big fish in a little pond. I recommend you learn as much as you can and wait for the right time ask for more money. If your forceful/demanding then your better have something on the back burner. Also, be prepared when asking. Sell yourself to them. Identify all the things you do for them and those items that would be hard to be replaced. If you do leave your current company make sure you leave on a good note.

Your job doesn?t generate revenue nor does it reflect against these peoples daily work. I know, you think they do, but honestly you don?t. Think about it. Do you appreciate the plumber? No, but as soon as a pipe breaks everyone appreciate the PLUMBER.

Hope this helps. If you want to chat off-line you can PM or Email me.

Take Care
-JC

P.S.
Yes, your underpaid for where and what your doing. Make sure they understand and your clear to them that not only do you need a salary increase (more money doesn't mean you can handle more work load), but your going to need help to keep it going effectively!

 

mobogasm

Golden Member
Oct 25, 1999
1,033
0
0
that is so true. IT work does not get recognized until something goes wrong. if everything goes fine/right they think you are doing nothing. I guess you just have to make them notice what you are doing.
 

mboy

Diamond Member
Jul 29, 2001
3,309
0
0
Originally posted by: mobogasm
that is so true. IT work does not get recognized until something goes wrong. if everything goes fine/right they think you are doing nothing. I guess you just have to make them notice what you are doing.


Amen to that!
 

MysticLlama

Golden Member
Sep 19, 2000
1,003
0
0
Wow, this is getting a lot of attention. I miss one day and I missed all kinds of stuff. I'm definately not against the turnout though. :D

Dug- I know that in my posts it looks like I'm the psychotic god admin that's all pissed and wants a raise. (Though I hope not that bad)
It's definately not like that when I'm here at work. Noone knows that I'm unhappy (except my wife of course, but that's from outside), I don't bitch to other people about the company or anything when we're not at the office, and I definately didn't make any demands or threats.

I did write a big e-mail to my boss concerning a lot of things. The money was a portion, of course, but that wouldn't have been an issue if they had just kicked any recognition towards me (like work every other Friday from home, or take a free day off after working all weekend). That's just the way they tend to reward anyone for whatever around here, so I felt that I wasn't being rewarded at all.

Another thing is that my boss and I have a very interesting relationship. I very rarely get in trouble, and she defends me nearly 100% if anything comes down from the higher powers. One thing that makes it interesting is that the two owners are family, and so is every person in upper management. So unless you're a part of the family, you're always fighting for recognition because they tend to throw each other rewards and kudos all the time. Also, there is WAY too much political BS for a company of this size that's all family (so as if playing politics will get you anywhere) which makes things strange. From day 1 I have played that game my own way which is by not kissing up and always being straight about what I think, I almost got fired twice by my old boss (of the family) because I refused to take the blame for a couple of things that were utterly his fault, but they wouldn't let him because they knew my potential if I wasn't micromanaged and reigned in so much. But playing it that way has got me now to where I'm respected for my opinions and knowledge, and I'm one of the few people that can get into a shouting match over something with an owner without fearing repercussions because they know that I don't do things to the company's detriment or that are too risky just to make someone happy.

The thing is, with my boss and I, we both know that there is this big game to get as much power (and then be left alone) as possible and then go do your own thing, so we go back and forth with that. I know a lot of the inner workings of the company from higher level meetings, and I also have a way to get my opinions into those meetings by talking to her beforehand. The reason that it was a letter vs. talking is that I'm just much more adept at putting my thoughts down with writing and being more specific and eloquent because I know I won't have to explain. Sometimes in just regular conversation I have to explain myself constantly and always rephrase things because I don't have the same train of thought as everyone else.

I know that was long, but basically, I'm not the pouty IT guy that runs around and grouches, (though I did do some of that before, I've straightened out since January *new boss).

I also documented all of my large accomplishments on paper and in my review and they are filed in my personnel file so they won't get overlooked if something comes to that.

*********

I'm also very aware of the IT problem of getting noticed when things go wrong, but I have sensed that they are afraid of it. Now that the webmaster is gone there isn't anyone that I could talk through most things on the phone (without spending way too much time) so there isn't much of a fallback. I also threatened to go on a week vacation (jokingly) the same week my boss is going (because she's good at routing stuff or sourcing someone to fix or find a way around things if I'm out), and was flat told no. :) That did make me feel good.

Another thing that was brought up is that IT is not a revenue generator, but a cost center. I completely understand that. But the numbers show that IT is actually doing very good as far as budget is concerned.

Along with my salary we have a support contract with our ERP/POS vendor, and that plus work over and above the contract is about 50k/yr. The rest of the IT budget that I spend in a year is less than 100k, for all of the users here and 25+ stores.

It sounds like a lot, but it's an over 20m company, and we sell lots of gag gift type items (think Spencer's or Magic Man, etc.), and the average margin (counting ALL items, low and high margin ones) is somewhere in the neighborhood of 70-90% at any given time.

When you look at it that way, IT is really pretty cheap here, especially considering the infastructure I'm building in. Once I'm done with this year, we could probably support 400 users or so if we wanted to, and lose near any server without any big services dropping off. (A couple of exceptions, but for the most part)

**

Geez, I type too much.

btw, she has read it and I'm still here, which is a good sign. :) There has been a lot of stuff going on so it hasn't been discussed yet, but I don't have a bad feeling or anything, things seem pretty normal. (And when they aren't, it's obvious, this place is drama central)
 

SaigonK

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2001
7,482
3
0
www.robertrivas.com
You make 45k ?
Frankly compared to some places thats pretty good....


Try this out for size...
I used to take care of 250 workstations and one server, two remote offices. (Florida and new Jersey), I made about 27k.
I have since gotten raises and promotions, but frankly I still make around 38k a year and here is what i have to deal with now:

25 Citrix Servers (1 - Citrix Cluster server)
75 Windows NT/2000 servers (everything from peoplesoft web servers to Lotus Notes to Quest apps..you name it...)
7 Novell servers.
600 users in our facility.
Corporate LAN - 8 Nortel 450BT switches x 4 floors x 2 wings = 64 switches.
Corporate Backup - All servers running Legato

We are also responsible for ALL the remote sites, they look to us for anything and everything. to name a few locations:
(korea, Penang, Cebu, Salkt Lake, Texas, Florida...the list goes on...)

Of course I am not alone...there are three of us in the group who manage all of this.
We are on call 24/7 - 365 days a year. - We rotate one guy each week.

As was said before...I do a TON of work and like others, i might feel like I am way underpaid and they would be screwed without me...
but really i could be replaced tomorrow or they would get by without me.

Of course..my two peers make approx. 10k more than me..so it stings sometimes, but something to think about...
I LOVE my job, as high strung as it can be, as much time as i put in, the 16 hours days at least 2 days a week and the 10-12 hours days the other 3, plus weekends.
But I feel lucky to be working on the edge of new technology, a diverse environment, and with 100% top notch people.

I am sure we all want more, but sometimes it is best to be thankful you are employed....especially right now!












 

dexter333

Senior member
Oct 9, 2000
442
0
0
Originally posted by: MysticLlama

* the thing about CA, wasn't a typo, that was eight hundred dollars/mo. It's a small town called Crescent City, about a 15-20 minute drive to Oregon. There is nothing there, it's a small place, thus the prices, and it's not really in "California" as people think of CA. :) It is a beautiful place and I was thinking it might be nice to get someplace quiet for a while and take a break, someplace I wouldn't take my work home with me and would just be relaxing all the way around.

Hahahaa, Crescent City, I've been there a few times. We camped in a place called Klamath that's like 7 miles from it. I don't see wtf kind of tech jobs there are in that city. When you say there's nothing there, you really mean it. ;)
 

mobogasm

Golden Member
Oct 25, 1999
1,033
0
0
I've heard that saying a million times too "IT doesn't create revenue". True, but you know how much downtime/production they would lose without us? I think it more than makes up for itself. If a users system is down or an entire server is down, you know how much money they are losing by the minute...? I don't want to think about it....

Licensing out IT work by contract is always an option for them but response time is always 4+ hours (min). That's 4 hours they're out of an employee or whatever is down. Just a thought.
 

IaPuP

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2000
1,186
0
0
hmmm... I'm kinda late in here, but I figure I'll throw in my little bit.

I was making $25/hr doing the "fix my computer, it's beeping at me" problems. I will be graduating soon with a degree in Computer Engineering with a focus on networking technology and security (especially wireless) and with a CCNA, I'm looking at a $80k/yr job. I guess it's pretty good considering I'm 21.

The trick to getting a kick-ass job is knowing people. I took the Vice President of IT out to lunch after fixing his computer a few times and we got to chatting. The day I was leaving to go back to finish school, he took the time to seek me out and he offered me a promotion if I would come back after I graduated.

So I'm an ass kisser. Good for me, it landed me a SWEET job in a field that I want to work and in my favorite city (Denver). I start in January. I'm starting my apartment search now, but I think I can get a nice 2br townhouse for about $900/mo, plus my car is already payed off from my saved earnings from the old job, so I'm 100% debt free. (college was on full scholarship)

Oh, and if you're wondering how I got the $25/hr job in the first place... I played golf with the director of PC support and got his number. He just happened to mention that they were looking for someone to fill the position and I just happened to be sufficiently experienced for the job. I think there were about 20 other applicants, but knowing the director was likely what got me in the door since I believe it was him who made the final decision.

Just keep telling myself the old addage "it's not what you know but who you know."

And no, you can't be bad at your job and still get promotions. But you can be REALLY good and never get noticed if you don't MAKE them notice.

Oh yeah, writing for BXBoards and AnandTech did help, suprisingly (I didn't expect that) :p The director had read one of my articles a few months earlier. Ironically, that writing helped me decide that I'm definately not a writer (I don't enjoy writing on a deadline AT ALL) :)

Anywayz, time for sleep
Eric
 

Nutz

Senior member
Sep 3, 2000
302
0
0
Originally posted by: IaPuP


Just keep telling myself the old addage "it's not what you know but who you know."

And no, you can't be bad at your job and still get promotions. But you can be REALLY good and never get noticed if you don't MAKE them notice.

That's one of the best bits of advice I've seen. As much as I hate to say it, who you know is more often than not what gets people hired. Taking the Sr. IT guy to lunch or golfing will make you stand out much more than someone who''s name he read on the top of a piece of paper.
 

SaigonK

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2001
7,482
3
0
www.robertrivas.com
Absolutely!
The reason I got a 30% raise prior to my promotion was because I fixed one of our Chief Officers home system with some very important data on it.
Had I not been cordial, easily accessible and competent, that opportunity never would have presented itself.
Remember though, work isn?t a social club, "networking" with people is great, but be sure you back it up with some know-how.
 

lowtech1

Diamond Member
Mar 9, 2000
4,644
1
0

It all depend on what you are doing & your location.

The area I'm in the going salary for a junior Admin, DBA, or Developer is from 30-40k CAD (19-25k USD). In a slightly larger city across the water the salary for junior is between 32-45k CAD. A Senior Oracle/DB2 Developer Consultant with 11 years of experience at PriceWaterHouseCoopers is getting 65k CAD (41k USD) in this city.

Sligthly off topic: Senior Biomedical Researcher with Master/PHD degrees salary is starting at 32-50k CAD here in Victoria.

The location we are in is the best in Canada and could be one of the top 10 beautiful city in the world, but the money isn't so great that why so many of us are looking south for the green back.