A question of IT salary...

[MysticLlama]

Hey guys,
I know a bunch of you work in the field, and I just want to get an idea of how much I'm really getting stiffed. (not *if*, I already know I am)

Here is a list of my current duties/accomplishments, and I'm the only IT person on staff. This is in the past year and a half.

8 years of experience in the field. (I've had nothing but full time IT jobs since I was 16)
Worked at MS on the NT Service Pack team.

Since I got here I've done the following:
Upgraded 10BT hubs in the ceiling somewhere to 10/100 Switchs with a managed central switch.
Upgraded the PII-500 Database server to a dual 1.26/2GB
Upgraded the Corporate UNIX application server from a P150 to a Dual 600
(All servers are Compaq Proliants, which I have been certified to work on (I think it's expired though) )
Built a new machine for near everyone in the main office - 30+ so far
Built a from scratch Active Directory Domain (it was all static IP'd Win95,98,NT boxes)
Have Migrated all boxes to 2000/XP
Dealt with all licensing issues
Deal with all backups
Deal with all security issues
Built a corporate VPN

Maintain 4 webservers (3 W2k, 1 Linux) 1 Web_db (Linux) w/20k+ uniques of traffic/day
Deal with our 3rd party ERP/Retail company (WAY more of a pain than you could ever imagine)
Do support for 28 remote stores and their crappy modem polling
Manage all domains and DNS
Manage all secure certs

Planned items include:
T1 line with Cisco 2620XM and PIX515E Firewall
Cisco 506s in all stores to create a WAN
3 more webservers + one more webdb

..and that wasn't even all of it, just some stuff off the top of my head..

And get this, I don't work in an IT related company, I work in a retail type company, so rather than having a bunch of users that administrate themselves, I can't even explain to someone how to install Acrobat Reader, and I have to touch every computer for that little of an item.

I know I sound kind grouchy, I just looked up some salaries of similar job descriptions and it really irritated the hell out of me.

So on salary.com, the job I pick NT Administrator, Sr. for the correct ZIP code I'm in (just outside Seattle)
The lowest is 74k, and it goes up to over 90k.

I wanted to start at 50k a year and a half ago (out of a job, needed work, got lowballed) ended up accepting 45k. Now I've got a couple raises, but I still don't quite make the 50k, and I'm about done with waiting.

I do like my job, but I fell that it's a personal insult the way they deal with my salary. It's a 20+m company, with one IT guy, they can do better.

Now here is an interesting question. Our one programmer/webmaster has moved with his new wife, out of state. He now gets to telecommute, doesn't have to deal with supervising the graphics department anymore, and got a raise. I only got my little raise a couple months ago, but that makes me mad enough to ask for another. I have the opportunity right now to say that without a raise, they can't have either of us, because the VPN will cease to work. (and not through sabotage, it's a grouchy box, and won't last past one error because it doesn't come back up right), which puts me in an interesting situation.

What would everyone else do? Comments/Suggestions?

 

[Schnieds]

Tough situation...

You are WAY UNDERPAYED. I am personally in the IT/development field. I have 4-5 years experience in IT (the type of stuff that you do) and also some software development (that is what I am doing now.) I currently am making 50K, but I have told the powers that be that I need to get paid what I am worth, or they can start looking to fill my shoes.....

It's not that I need the money, or an issue of greed at all. However, it's hard to feel like I am a valuable employee to the company if I can go to any other company out there and make a lot more money. At this point, my job has its goods and its bads, but nothing is especially great here. If I can make more money by making a switch to another company, without giving up anything, it make no sense not to move...

That is what I explained to them. If they don't want to pay me what the going rate is, than if I stay I am losing money and they can hire someone who would be at the same level as the salary that they are willing to pay.

If I were you, I would consider a few things:

1) Are is anything about your current posistion that money just can't buy. I.e. perks, your personal enjoyment of the position, etc.?
2) If you seek a higher salary with this company how do you anticipate them to react?
3) If they react negatively and you end up looking for another job, how does that effect your family (if you have one.)

If you decide to prompt them for a raise, I would take in some information to back up your request. Take them facts and figures from the internet showing others with similar job qualifications, duties, and their salaries. Explain your position, explain that it's not about greed, but that you don't feel like you are being treated fairly.

Good luck!

 

[MysticLlama]

Yeah, the big questions I have are pretty much the ones you stated.

The position itself is pretty good, the only thing I don't like is dealing with the clueless people at the stores, which is a major pain in the ass. I have a huge office, have pretty good leeway to make my own decisions and schedule my own time. I get chewed on on occasion for not making things a priority (when they aren't) and irritating people who like to complain on occasion.

I think that if I ask for a higher salary they will give me a bunch of crap about my 6% raise being more than most of the company, that I don't always get to store issues fast enough (of course not, how do I possibly have time?), that the job market won't hold up to asking more money, some various BS like that.

As far as affecting my family, that's a little tricky. I'm married, no kids, but my wife also works here, and that might make things a little uncomfortable for her. I'm sure she could still work as she's in a different department, and it good on her own merits, having her job has nothing to do with me. The big kicker is that it's a really long drive, and is pretty much unbareable without the carpool lane. On the neg side that means she might quit and we wouldn't have the $$, on the positive side, they might realize that and take it into account.

The other thing that I know, is that there is absolutely no way that they could let me go right now, even if they had to pay me more and then fire me in three months. There is an aquisition of another company going on, and there are only 3 main players doing all of the work, myself, the telcommuting guy, and my wife. The whole deal falls apart if I leave. Even if the webmaster bailed, I could handle pulling us through, but I honestly don't think that they have a chance without me, and they aren't giving me that credit.

So the thing that I'm kicking around now is that they have to keep me for at least 30-60 days, during which time I can be looking for a job. We also survived for about 4 months when I was on unemployment and she wasn't working at all, so I think we could manage until we found work if absolutely necessary.

It's just one of those big condundrums I guess. I also don't hold them any ill-will and don't want to screw them over, but I don't want to hurt myself in order to do that.

 

[Agamar]

Lol...I have worked at the local college for almost 3 years now. I still have not broken $40k. I do 3 DNS, 4 Web, 2 DHCP, 2 Win2k Active Directory Domains (separated, no trust), Perl, and a whole lot of software troubleshooting / end user support. I am expected to know how to use software minutes after seeing it for the first time.

Even though I get paid like crap, education has a great retirement plan and time off for Christmas (1 week). Because of this, and because I work with a good bunch of people, I have accepted my meager salary. I can't say I wouldn't leave if I got a really really tempting offer, but chances are I will be here for a little while longer.

 

[Schnieds]

That's a tough situation you have there MysticLlama. Unfortunately since your wife works there, if you upset them they may take it out on her, even if it is completely unrelated.

Aquisitions can be messy. Do you think that there is a chance they will find you "redundant" after it's over? If so I wouldn't hesistate to start looking... it's much nicer to be looking casually when you have a job than to be scrambling when you are un-employed.

Also, it doesn't hurt to take a look at what's out there and see if there are any options that you like.

Good Luck!

 

[GoodRevrnd]

You should demand they hire an entry level LAN-I/PC-Support type guy to help you w/ the piddly sh!t while you're at it. And once you do, give me a call and I'll happily move to Seattle and work for you.

 

[spidey07]

I guess the only way to find out would be to look at other jobs. 50k sounds normal but isn't cost of living in seattle rather high? What's your degree in?

 

[MysticLlama]

Thanks for my replies guys, I appreciate them.

I do like working here for the most part, I'm not planning on running into the owners office and demanding $70k or anything, so that is a factor.

As far as the aquisition, we're only buying a company of four people, and none of the people are coming, so rather than being redudant, I actually just have that many more responsibilities. A company of four seems small, but it was a owner operated net company, and they all worked like 70 hours a week or more, so it will be quite a bit of an extra load.

My wife is also in a situation where they'd be in big trouble without her, so I don't think they'd be that rash. And they can't really give her more work to do, because she already does near everything for the areas she covers.

As far as the entry level guy, I have actually been pushing that pretty hard, I'm hoping with this aquisition I can blow enough people off by being too busy that they'll get the point. I actually have a bunch of cool domain stuff half done that I never get a chance to work on, they just don't know about all that, because the stuff I work hard at and am excited by they just stare at blankly. The only thing about it is that the person I hire is gonna be a retail flunkie extrordinarie, because dealing with those store systems (and their users) is a complete PITA. So I wouldn't really wish the job on anyone, even though I have to get help someday.

Spidey, It does sound normal, but on the other hand I pay over $1000/mo for a small apartment that is an hour drive from here each way (WITH the carpool lane) and it'd cost a lot more than that to get closer, unless I wanted to live someplace not even near as nice as I have now for the same price. Also, they jack up food prices here. I mean, I can go visit my mom and buy Foster Farms chicken for like $2/lb. and it's around $7ish/lb. here. What's up with that, they are grown in WA!!

I don't have a formal degree, because I was going to college when I was 14-16, and as silly as it sounds to me now, I really just wanted to ride my bike, or (when I got older) cruise around with my friends. It was also a community college, which didn't help matters as I was bored out of my mind most of the time. I did take every class they offered on the CIS track, but it's all so useless now it's not even funny. I just go on my good experience (MS and AT&T don't hurt) and some very good references.

I know that hurts me, but once you're past the experience threshold in years, it doesn't seem to manage to much except for government/education type jobs, or companies that just have really rigid rules for some reason or another.

The webmaster that just left had a 4 year degree, and I can't see that it helped him. The languages he learned we weren't using, so he always had books on his desk figuring stuff out, and as far as just experience seeing things work this way or that, it just wasn't there. They also hired on some really random interview questions and a test, so it may have got him the interview, but who knows.

I don't have any super high end skill like being Cisco certified or anything, but I am one of the best, and the fastest, random troubleshooter and figure-it-out-even-having-no-clue person that I know. (Yes, technical descriptions) So that helps me get a lot more done that just the stuff I know how to do. (People who can only do what they know how or are explictly taught drive me crazy because I don't understand them.)

 

[Soybomb]

Wow...here in the ass-crack of Illinois a job like that pays like 30k.....

 

[MysticLlama]

Yeah, I know that area factors in quite a bit on it.

Of course you probably don't have housing developments of fairly cookie-cutter 1600-1800sqft. houses that "start in the low $240s".

That's most of the issue, if I ever want to live in a house, especially a psuedo-nice one (I'm not talking BillGs or even 5 bedroom here, just a 3 bedroom 1700sqft ish with a few niceties vs. just cheap construction), I'm going to have to get on the ball.

I actually applied for a job down in Northern California a while back that paid $37-39k, which would have been a pay cut, but there, I would've been rollin'. I was looking at a 3 bedroom house with a full view of the ocean, (not on the beach, but on a cliff, there is a bunch of places to walk down to it though), and the rent was $800/mo. !!!

 

[Crab cake]

$800 a month for a place with an ocean view in California? That must be a typo. How about $1800? Could even be $8000. NorCal is more expensive than SoCal. I'm in SoCal. My mortgage for a 2 bd and 1 bath is in the $400K range. That's the mortgage, not the price of the house and the ocean is 20 miles away. There is no such thing as low cost of living in California. Not on the coastal side anyway. Doesn't matter how far north or south you go. Anything with a coast anywhere near it would be over the million mark. So that's a definite typo.

As for you being underpaid, it's hard to say. Retail is notoriously bad for IT people. The pay is far from generous and the turnover is high. With the economy and the tech job market being the way it is, I'll say you are being screwed from both ends. I recently sat in on an interview for a new programming position at our company. The guy we interviewed was making $120 but took our offer of $90K. That's a significant cut, but we had over 400 applicants to choose from. These were the qualified ones. The actual number of people that sent in their resumes was over 10000. There were so many that we didn't even bother to go through all of them. I would think about quitting that job very carefully if I were you.

 

[ojai00]

My supervisor works for a small non-profit organization in New York and she get's around $45k. She can't possibly deal with all the dumb questions that are asked around the office; I handle those. Anyhow, like someone else suggested, you can try looking into getting an assistant. I'm turning 20 and I know this is the dumb side of me, but if I were in your shoes, I would just apply for some other jobs and see how much they pay. That way, if you do make a case to your company and they let you go, you have a backup. Please don't flame, that's just the dumb side of me. Of course, I would never do that once I get into the corporate world. Best of luck to you and I hope you do get a raise because it looks like you're a really valuable person to the organization.

 

[spidey07]

and lest we not forget just how rough it is out there right now for IT.

I am a serious, hardcore engineer (not in title, but in degree and 10 years experience) and the market is tighter than a deep sea fishs buthole. I used to get head hunter's calling me once a week, "got this great job for ya at 150K if you move to denver". Now I'm getting calls from these folks looking for jobs. No lie, my buddies, highly skilled professionals. Calling me for jobs, once a week.

Be mindful, know the industry you are in and the times we face. Be thankful you have a job. Bank your money and wait for the upturn. If you can find something else better then that's awesome.

I'm trying to be honest with you but you must be careful. I detect a little bit of attitude in your posts such as "they can't live without me". No matter who you are, no matter where you work, you can be replaced. period, point-blank. That kind of attitude can get into real trouble real fast.

I tell you this as a friend. Because when I was a know-it-all-they-can't-live-without-me 24 year old a mentor of mine sat me down and said. "John, you need to loose the attitude real quick. Pull together and be a postive influence on your work and those around you. Don't be arrogant, be smooth, do the job above and beyond, and don't ever, ever talk bad about your job or your co-workers."

To this day I owe my success not to my skills but to my mentor who taught me the greatest lesson I've ever learned in my career.

Paul Servino of WilTell, I love you man...thank you.

ps - I was fired from my first professional position at 24 years old. Not because I wasn't competent or skilled, I was beyond belief. I was fired because I was a jerk with a "this place can't live without me" attitude.

Hope this helps.

 

[ojai00]

I tell you this as a friend. Because when I was a know-it-all-they-can't-live-without-me 24 year old a mentor of mine sat me down and said. "John, you need to loose the attitude real quick. Pull together and be a postive influence on your work and those around you. Don't be arrogant, be smooth, do the job above and beyond, and don't ever, ever talk bad about your job or your co-workers."

To this day I owe my success not to my skills but to my mentor who taught me the greatest lesson I've ever learned in my career.

Well said. I can't agree with this more...no matter how good a person thinks he/she is, that person can always, ALWAYS get replaced.

 

[ScottMac]

So true Spidey ... but I'd like to think they'd suffer at least a little ....

(I know they won't ... Old Age sucks(!) ...you don't know everything anymore, you're not indispensable anymore, common sense wins over reckless abandon ... the Docs always wanna play finger puppet ... the powers that be should allow us all at least one "Do Over" now that we've got some practice in....)

Oh well....

Scott

 

[spidey07]

Just doing my part and giving back.

A single 2 hour long conversation turned my career around 8 years ago. I provided the distilled version.

 

[spidey07]

Old Age sucks(!) ...you don't know everything anymore, you're not indispensable anymore, common sense wins over reckless

It might suck, but at the same time I can listen to my Martin Logans on tube gear for the highs and classe for the bass on a 555es SACD player if I so desire or do i feel like playing around and bi-amping 4xadcom 555s. Watching on my 65" mits HDTV in my 3000 sq ft house on 1 acre driving my new acura TL type-S while I contemplate slapping a turbo on my prelude 1999 prelude SH that I fully own. And I want a boat.

And if I feel like it I'll step upstairs to the thiel 3.2s on krell ksa-250s and a homemade tube pre (gotta tame those krells somehow) with my ancient adcom gcd700 player.

Not meant to brag, but heed my advice. You'll thank me 7-10 years later when you have a reputation built - not as a smart-ass but as a business professional who can work well with others, just as I thank Paul.

 

[MysticLlama]

Well, I understand what all of you guys are saying about the market, and that it's hard to get a job right now. I definately know that, I when I wrote an e-mail on teh subject today, I made it very clear that I'm not looking to quit or actively look for another job.

Basically the way I phrased it is that I'm upset on a personal level, because they are putting this webmaster on a pedestal and bending over backwards for him, and I haven't been given the respect to be given what I asked for in the first place a year and a half ago. I know it's silly to be upset about $1k/yr., but it's also silly that they made a concious thought to still shortchange me that $1k.

I'm definately not the cocky, they can't live without me type. I've long grown out of that. (even only being 24)
I do feel like that on occasion on the inside, and bitch about it to my wife or friends (not coworkers), because the way things are set up, it's very close to true, especially not having an assistant, or anyone that has a clue for that matter.

It's not so much a straight up $$ issue as an appreciation thing I think. If they were to kick me a couple Fridays a month to work from home (without begging ), or give me a token $20 when I get called on a weekend or in the middle of the night, it'd go a long ways towards helping my attitude. It's more about attitude and company perception than anything, I made money a big focus just to bring to the table something very measureable.

I pretty much made all of this clear in the e-mail I wrote, so I'm not expecting a backlash of any sort. I am resonable and I know that stirring stuff up at a time when it's hard to get a job is just a dumb thing to do.

* the thing about CA, wasn't a typo, that was eight hundred dollars/mo. It's a small town called Crescent City, about a 15-20 minute drive to Oregon. There is nothing there, it's a small place, thus the prices, and it's not really in "California" as people think of CA. It is a beautiful place and I was thinking it might be nice to get someplace quiet for a while and take a break, someplace I wouldn't take my work home with me and would just be relaxing all the way around.

Spidey, sounds like you're doing very well. I hope to be living like that (though a little more modestly up here ) eventually, and I am aware that the company I work at now isn't prepared to do that. I'm just trying to build up a history of working one place for a long while, proving I'm a good employee and holding a good title for that time period. I feel that in the long term when I'm trying to get hired at a company that really counts and I have opportunity in that it'll look better on my resume than some of the contracts I had (set time, not quitting or getting fired or anything) because they make me sound flightey.

Thanks for the advice everyone, just so you all know, I did come in to it with an open mind rather than just looking for justification or people to back me up. Though that's nice too sometimes, it's not my ultimate goal.

I also know that my age kills me a bit, because this is a really old school company that doesn't really "get" the younger crowd being paid so much for skills they are good at almost by nature.

 

[MysticLlama]

Just another post, wanted to break it up.

One thing that really did screw all of us that have been working on computers forever and actually DO have quite a talent for understanding them and making them do what we want was the rush of people into the IT field.

The truth of the matter is, I didn't even really pick this because it's what I wanted to do, it's just something that I have a talent for, and being the sheltered little kid that I was I'm never gonna be able to pull of something like a mechanic or a pro athlete, so I just decided to stay on the same track.

What happened is that everyone and their dog jumped into "the Computer field" in general in college or through fast track MCSE classes or whatnot, when they had never even used a computer before or sometimes didn't even like them.

It the type of people that come to boards like this, and are interested in tinkering, and just reading on their own time to learn for the sake of learning that can actually fill this job very well.

An example, several years ago when I lived in Portland, I was at a clients' site, along with the new MSCE we just hired. (Who was hired at MORE than twice what I made) and there were issues with the Exchange server. He didn't have the slightest clue because it "wasn't the version he learned", and was just lost. So I sat there and figured the thing out while he pulled out the drill and mounted their wall rack for them. It's not that he wasn't a smart guy or anything, it's just that reading all of the books and aceing the tests doesn't make you an "expert".

Eventually I think that the ratio will get back to normal once people start focusing more on the traditional studies, Business, Medical, Science, Engineering (for real), etc..

It's a high hope, but I have to think it will happen eventually, I'm sure a lot of people are getting hired with MCSEs and looked at funny when they can't get a modem or sound card to work, in case they have to cover in a pinch. That doesn't make the rest of us resourceful ones look very good (I can figure almost anything out with google) and that hurts the community. Kinda if Time/Life books started giving out actual medical degrees after reading "home kidney removal vol. 2", it wouldnt' help out the way doctors look in general at all.

And one other pet peeve... we're not ALL slackers. (I tend to dress down a little and wear nice jeans and a simple unprinted shirt, but not at all sloppy). And I also tend to take my work home whether or not I need to or whether or not I'm asked to. I just had to give a shoutout to all of the non-slacker IT people that I know are out there.

Sorry for all the long posts guys, I'm just in a crazy ranting mood or something. That's why I don't post often, and my count is so low compared to when I joined, it just takes me way too long.

 

[spidey07]

MysticLama,

You sound like a very mature invidual who has his hand on the pulse of our industry and the struggles it is going through. Congratulations!

Last bit of advice. Always dress better than the other guy. It matters a whole heck of a lot.

do gauge yourself in your own area by looking in the paper and networking. You may be underpaid or you may be just right - only your peers can verify that.

 

[Bleep]

Over the last few years I have read a lot of posts about wages. Most of the time the person will not move to get more money, I have a in with a huge company and could have got a person a job that posted on here a lot, he was out of work at the time and the job offer was $65,000 to start and with this corp. no end in site but he did not want to move to Omaha Ne.
The Union Pacific hires engineer trainees and within a year they are making 60 to 65 thou. with a wage guarntee, educational requirements are High School or GED. Brains and talent should pay one hell of a lot more than that.

Bleep

 

[Garion]

Spidey: Man, it must be nice to live way the heck out there in the boonies. Lemee guess -Wife works and no kids? *grin*

On Seattle.. It's amazing how much it costs to live around here. I live in a relatively modest house, one car payment, and the normal bills. My wife stays at home with my son. We live a good life, but certainly not outlandish (like SOME I might mention, no names mentioned, of course), and I make $100K+. Money goes quick around here.

MysticLlama, a few pieces of advice to you.. It sounds like you've been working in a small company for quite a while, being the jack-of-all-trades. That's a good job, and has a lot of challenges, but it'll never get you where you want to go, salary-wise. There's a key in this industry, and that's specialization. Almost all of us start off as generalists, then gradually become more specialized in one specific area of expertise. When you start to get more focused on one area, you become more knowledgeable in it and you can find a company willing to pay for that skill. IE, a company with 300 people might need an dedicated network infrastructure engineer. They can pay him a lot more than they pay their Tier 1 tech guy. The average "cost to support one seat" stays the same, you just start to reap the benefits of the higher dollars. Get to where you've become a firewall specialist, and you get into bigger companies where you make even more cash.

I'm not trying to sound mercenary, or like I'm after the bucks, but that's how the game is played. Look at all the things you do in your job and pick a few that you like and can see yourself spending the rest of your life on. (And hope it's not building PC's or answering Helpdesk calls). Do everything you can in your current job to improve your skills in this particular area. If you pick something like NT, Try and scrounge some hardware and setup a few AD servers, a couple of domains in a forest, etc.

On the raises issue.. Most companies give a pretty trivial annual raise - 6% isn't too bad. You typically get the big jumps when you get promoted. IE, become a senior techie instead of just a techie. Unfortunately, there's not much room for that at your current job - The only way to get a good salary bump is to move, unfortunately. All too common of a scenario.

If you want a bit more challenge, and a place to tune your skills, try working for a system integrator or a VAR. You get a massive amount of experience with all sizes of companies very quickly, and you'll learn a ton of valuable skills. I did that for three years, had a great time, and it was a springboard for a position at a much larger company. There's a lot of good VARS in Seattle, and I'm sure a few are looking for good talent nowadays..

Anyhow, best of luck!

- G

 

[Geniere]

Management seminars I've attended from time to time all indicate that money is a short term motivator. The difference between 45 or 50 thou is not much in the big picture. What is your long term goal? If it's making a lot of money, you're in the wrong field. Top notch techies get good money but get left behind quickly by middle management bean counters and marketing staff. Your job doesn't generate income albeit you may save the company big bucks. Consider your position to be a necessary evil. As the stock market frauds show a bean counter can generate millions (billions) at a key stroke.

Pick the future you want now, don't wait. Put all your energy into it. It's your life. Get that four year + degree.

Regards

 

[mechBgon]

MysticLlama, if they did let you get a drone to build PCs, hold the user's hand through the Acrobat Reader installations, and so forth, what would such a person make over there, if I may ask? I've got a part-time job doing such things over here in Spokane at a non-profit agency, and was curious.

Hope you get more appreciation with your outfit, it sounds like you definitely earn what they're paying!

 

[ojai00]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
MysticLlama, if they did let you get a drone to build PCs, hold the user's hand through the Acrobat Reader installations, and so forth, what would such a person make over there, if I may ask? I've got a part-time job doing such things over here in Spokane at a non-profit agency, and was curious.

Hope you get more appreciation with your outfit, it sounds like you definitely earn what they're paying!

I get $12.50/hour to do that. My supervisor gets around $45K. I also work at a non-profit as stated in my earlier post.