A question of Class

[miketheidiot]

After all hoopla that the media has played up and hillary's hardworking, middle class base, i realized that my perception of the middle class is apparently different for at least that of the medias.

I've always considered to middle class to be basically professionals, more a career category than an income category. For instance, lawyers, teachers and doctors would be the first ones to come to mind. In addition to that, engineers & scientists, accountants, bankers, etc. Another way I could describe it would be careers based around ones knowledge rather than ones skills.

anyone tend to see this my way, and not the media's, or is this just me being an elitist?

 

[mxyzptlk]

I tend to think of it as people who aren't in poverty, but aren't wealthy either.

However, I cannot believe you actually put teachers in between doctors and lawyers...

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I tend to think of it as people who aren't in poverty, but aren't wealthy either.

However, I cannot believe you actually put teachers in between doctors and lawyers...

it was just the order i thought of them in.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I tend to think of it as people who aren't in poverty, but aren't wealthy either.

However, I cannot believe you actually put teachers in between doctors and lawyers...

Teachers are generally considered professionals in the same way that doctors and lawyers are.

As far as the middle class goes, I think the more current term for such would be those people who fall somewhere between the 30th and 70th percentiles of income. Something like that. Of course a lot of demographic descriptions change it into the upper middle class, the middle class, the working class, blah blah, which the media tends not to get into because those distinctions are not so well known.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I tend to think of it as people who aren't in poverty, but aren't wealthy either.

However, I cannot believe you actually put teachers in between doctors and lawyers...

Yeah. Class is inherently wealth based. Not necessarily income based, but wealth based absolutely.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I tend to think of it as people who aren't in poverty, but aren't wealthy either.

However, I cannot believe you actually put teachers in between doctors and lawyers...

it was just the order i thought of them in.

but there is an order of magnitude in the difference in pay..

Maybe if teachers were compensated on the level of doctors and lawyers, our nations education wouldn't rank so low in the world.. You might be on to something here.. not reality per say, but certainly something

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I tend to think of it as people who aren't in poverty, but aren't wealthy either.

However, I cannot believe you actually put teachers in between doctors and lawyers...

Teachers are generally considered professionals in the same way that doctors and lawyers are.

As far as the middle class goes, I think the more current term for such would be those people who fall somewhere between the 30th and 70th percentiles of income. Something like that. Of course a lot of demographic descriptions change it into the upper middle class, the middle class, the working class, blah blah, which the media tends not to get into because those distinctions are not so well known.

My only problem with 30-70 is that 0-20s somewhere are completely poverty stricken. That means you can't really define the 30s as middle. I'd say:

0-20 poverty
21-40 lower class
41-70 middle-class
71-90 upper class
91-00 rich

Those aren't exact, nor are the rigid.

 

[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I tend to think of it as people who aren't in poverty, but aren't wealthy either.

However, I cannot believe you actually put teachers in between doctors and lawyers...

Teachers are generally considered professionals in the same way that doctors and lawyers are.

hmmm, interesting.. but you only need a 4 years degree to be a teacher (right?) vs like 8 or more for lawyer/doctor.

they're all "professions" but I really can't agree that they are any more similar than that.


edit: I'm sorry, this is a derail. I won't speak on it again.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I tend to think of it as people who aren't in poverty, but aren't wealthy either.

However, I cannot believe you actually put teachers in between doctors and lawyers...

Teachers are generally considered professionals in the same way that doctors and lawyers are.

hmmm, interesting.. but you only need a 4 years degree to be a teacher (right?) vs like 8 or more for lawyer/doctor.

they're all "professions" but I really can't agree that they are any more similar than that.

Depends. Most secondary teachers are now required to have their bachelors in every subject they teach, a masters, their teaching degree (often is the masters), and all their extra certification and license coursework. It works out to the same number of credits as a PhD give or take. That's if they'll only be endorsed in one subject area mind you.

Primary teachers can get away with just a bachelors, though they do have a few extra courses required over that, and getting a masters is still strongly encouraged.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I tend to think of it as people who aren't in poverty, but aren't wealthy either.

However, I cannot believe you actually put teachers in between doctors and lawyers...

Teachers are generally considered professionals in the same way that doctors and lawyers are.

hmmm, interesting.. but you only need a 4 years degree to be a teacher (right?) vs like 8 or more for lawyer/doctor.

they're all "professions" but I really can't agree that they are any more similar than that.


edit: I'm sorry, this is a derail. I won't speak on it again.

normaly 4-6 i think, around here most teachers seem to get their masters, and they make about 15k more a year.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I tend to think of it as people who aren't in poverty, but aren't wealthy either.

However, I cannot believe you actually put teachers in between doctors and lawyers...

Teachers are generally considered professionals in the same way that doctors and lawyers are.

As far as the middle class goes, I think the more current term for such would be those people who fall somewhere between the 30th and 70th percentiles of income. Something like that. Of course a lot of demographic descriptions change it into the upper middle class, the middle class, the working class, blah blah, which the media tends not to get into because those distinctions are not so well known.

My only problem with 30-70 is that 0-20s somewhere are completely poverty stricken. That means you can't really define the 30s as middle. I'd say:

0-20 poverty
21-40 lower class
41-70 middle-class
71-90 upper class
91-00 rich

Those aren't exact, nor are the rigid.

keep in mind that someone in the 70th percentile is still making less than the mean national income.*

*roughy

 

[Martin]

The term is pretty loose, but the class you describe in your OP is actually the upper middle class.

 

[Sacrilege]

Originally posted by: Martin
The term is pretty loose, but the class you describe in your OP is actually the upper middle class.

....And this perfectly describes the disconnect between Obama supporters and the people not voting for him. Middle class also includes farmers, factory workers, policemen, nurses, etc. People who many on this board do not even know exist, and people who do not connect with Obama's elitist college air.

 

[blackangst1]

To me, middle class is any family that has to budget their money. i.e. keep an eye on it, yet has all what is consifered standard living i.e. their own place to live, a car, TV, microwave, yada yada yada.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I tend to think of it as people who aren't in poverty, but aren't wealthy either.

However, I cannot believe you actually put teachers in between doctors and lawyers...

Teachers are generally considered professionals in the same way that doctors and lawyers are.

As far as the middle class goes, I think the more current term for such would be those people who fall somewhere between the 30th and 70th percentiles of income. Something like that. Of course a lot of demographic descriptions change it into the upper middle class, the middle class, the working class, blah blah, which the media tends not to get into because those distinctions are not so well known.

My only problem with 30-70 is that 0-20s somewhere are completely poverty stricken. That means you can't really define the 30s as middle. I'd say:

0-20 poverty
21-40 lower class
41-70 middle-class
71-90 upper class
91-00 rich

Those aren't exact, nor are the rigid.

keep in mind that someone in the 70th percentile is still making less than the mean national income.*

*roughy

True, but of course that's exactly why mean income isn't used in situations like these... haha.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Martin
The term is pretty loose, but the class you describe in your OP is actually the upper middle class.

Correct. Middle class is at least some disposable income and savings. Professionals are upper middle.

Upper class BTW is generational wealth. The best way I can explain the dividing line is, if you're wealthy but your family isn't, then you're just new money.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Sacrilege

Originally posted by: Martin
The term is pretty loose, but the class you describe in your OP is actually the upper middle class.

....And this perfectly describes the disconnect between Obama supporters and the people not voting for him. Middle class also includes farmers, factory workers, policemen, nurses, etc. People who many on this board do not even know exist, and people who do not connect with Obama's elitist college air.

those people aren't middle class, they are working class. They has to be someone below the middle class for there to be middle class, right?

i'm not saying that working class people can't have middle class incomes, and i think that is were alot of the disconnect has happened. How you get your income seems just as important to me as what your income is.

 

[Rio Rebel]

working class is part of the middle class, just as professionals are. I would say the middle class goes from around $30-35k household income to $200k, as a general rule, which is most definitely affected by cost of living of the region.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
working class is part of the middle class, just as professionals are. I would say the middle class goes from around $30-35k household income to $200k, as a general rule, which is most definitely affected by cost of living of the region.

so you can be practically at the poverty line and be in the middle class? I don't see how a household could make it one 30k, let alone live a 'middle class lifestyle'. The working class certainly aren't middle class either?


is there anything below the middle class besides the homeless? or is this just a meaningless term used to describe whatever someone wants it to mean within the guidelines of middleclass =/= dirt poor.

 

[Wheezer]

Rich...use money to make money.

Middle class....make money, pay your bills and stash some in a savings/retirement account.

Poor...spend it as fast as it comes in.

 

[SigArms08]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I tend to think of it as people who aren't in poverty, but aren't wealthy either.

However, I cannot believe you actually put teachers in between doctors and lawyers...

it was just the order i thought of them in.

but there is an order of magnitude in the difference in pay..

Maybe if teachers were compensated on the level of doctors and lawyers, our nations education wouldn't rank so low in the world.. You might be on to something here.. not reality per say, but certainly something

Is anybody else tired of people talk as if teachers pay equates to the overall quality of education? The absurd benefits packages and annual time off puts "workers" in our education system in an entirely different payrange when you consider the value of these things.

Many lawyers don't make squat....and those that do had to first win many cases and continue to do so before a respectable wage was earned and then maintained. Monetary benefit isn't some right of passage upon completion of a degree, it should be earned based upon performance.

Even suggesting that educators should earn what medical doctors do is beyond absurd. Eight years of medical school followed up by years of a near-free internship. Doctors typically then have the responsibility of peoples health/lives in their hands and are required to perform flawlessly (another results driven profession).

Not to mention, the short of it is that teachers/professors are unionized, government employees. Does that sound like a great business model to achieve great things (efficiency, drive, ethics, motivation, resourcefulness, etc)? Does the US educational system rank best in class amongst the worlds industrial nations? Will higher wages solve the problem or is it a matter of union mentality coupled with useless school boards/administrators/gov't bureaucrats?

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Cairoswordsman

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
I tend to think of it as people who aren't in poverty, but aren't wealthy either.

However, I cannot believe you actually put teachers in between doctors and lawyers...

it was just the order i thought of them in.

but there is an order of magnitude in the difference in pay..

Maybe if teachers were compensated on the level of doctors and lawyers, our nations education wouldn't rank so low in the world.. You might be on to something here.. not reality per say, but certainly something

Is anybody else tired of people talk as if teachers pay equates to the overall quality of education? The absurd benefits packages and annual time off puts "workers" in our education system in an entirely different payrange when you consider the value of these things.

Many lawyers don't make squat....and those that do had to first win many cases and continue to do so before a respectable wage was earned and then maintained. Monetary benefit isn't some right of passage upon completion of a degree, it should be earned based upon performance.

Even suggesting that educators should earn what medical doctors do is beyond absurd. Eight years of medical school followed up by years of a near-free internship. Doctors typically then have the responsibility of peoples health/lives in their hands and are required to perform flawlessly (another results driven profession).

Not to mention, the short of it is that teachers/professors are unionized, government employees. Does that sound like a great business model to achieve great things (efficiency, drive, ethics, motivation, resourcefulness, etc)? Does the US educational system rank best in class amongst the worlds industrial nations? Will higher wages solve the problem or is it a matter of union mentality coupled with useless school boards/administrators/gov't bureaucrats?

Just to correct you on a few things...not all teachers are unionized. Most districts have an "opt-out" option if they want it. Also, your annual time off comment is a bit naive. My ex is a teacher, her mom is a teacher and her dad is a district administrator. For 2 years she kept track of her hours, including during *cough* breaks. When all was said and done she made about $6/hour, and spent an average of $3,000/yr of our own money on her classroom. And she isnt an exception. I'd like to hear from other teachers if we have any.

Just FYI.

 

[SSSnail]

Bullshit, middle class is DEAD!

 

[Craig234]

Actually, almost everyone is in the middle class, if you ask them.

My own politics are based on as many as possible doing as well as possible.

Contrary to some simpletons on the right's assumptions about my views, they include the benefits of moderate inequality (based on merit/performance rather than the power that comes from having so much wealth you can rig the game, which lowers the size of the pie but protects a few people's big slices).

I use the term middle class for convenience, but it's a very fluid term, without much 'hard' IMO; I'm in favor of moving people up from the poor to the 'middle class', or enriching those in the middle class, and of the wealthy doing just fine, but functioning in ways where they are contributing to the others' doing well, not dominating the system.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Teachers are generally considered professionals in the same way that doctors and lawyers are.

Uh...no. Teachers are most definitely not considered "professionals" in the same way that doctors and lawyers are considered professionals. They might be called "professionals" to make them feel better in the same way that your experienced and competent auto mechanic might be a "professional", but they really aren't professionals in the traditional sense of the word in this context.