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A question for the Conservatives

glenn1

glenn1

Lifer
Conservatives, here's one for you.

We've all seen countless times the reasons overtly given for the invasion of Iraq. To me however, those reasons don't square with what I've actually observed of the behavior of the more vocal opponents of the war. Their statements and actions are far, far too visceral and over-the-top to be the product of a simple disagreement over policy. Heck, I disagree with your side (and the left as well) all the time on policy issues, anything from questions on gay marriage to taxation to civil liberties, and yet I don't go around comparing you to Hitler or suggesting you be tried as a war criminal (or for that matter, tolerating statements by those that do a lá Michael Moore, moveon.org, etc).

Obviously there are plenty of those who disagree with Bush in part or whole yet do so in a civil, constructive manner and don't peddle conspiracy theories (Sen. Lieberman jumps to mind as an example), but I'm not talking about them. I'm referring to the virulently anti-Bush and anti-American set out there, the ones peddling the conspiracy theories and claiming Bush = fascist, etc. IMHO, there's more to it than what they are overtly letting on. What do you feel is the true, underlying (and so far unstated) grievance that the extremely vocal opponents of the Iraqi invasion have?
 
LOL, glenn1's first real probing question for the right, "Right, why IS the left really so unpatriotic?"

Talk about your slo-pitch softball extravaganza!

There's a career on Fox waiting for you!
 
LOL, glenn1's first real probing question for the right, "Right, why IS the left really so unpatriotic?"
Click to expand...

I don't remember calling the left unpatriotic, that was all you. I don't and wouldn't question the patriotism of anyone, including those who equate Bush to Hitler.

And if your concern is about throwing softballs to one side or the other, I've tossed equally easy ones to the left and asked why the right had and continues to have such a visceral reaction to the Clintons. I think I was the only person in the "Kerry going to choose Hillary for VP" thread defending her. But that this question might be a softball for the right doesn't make it any less valid.
 
Originally posted by: glenn1
LOL, glenn1's first real probing question for the right, "Right, why IS the left really so unpatriotic?"
Click to expand...

I don't remember calling the left unpatriotic, that was all you. I don't and wouldn't question the patriotism of anyone, including those who equate Bush to Hitler.
Click to expand...
Oh, really?
I'm referring to the virulently anti-Bush and anti-American set out there,
Click to expand...
 
I think that the passing of the patriot act, the prisoners hold a Guantanamo without trial and the attack of a country that wasn't a dircetly threat to US, was a major change in politics. Similar politics is mostly seen by fascist regimes 😛. So those who doesn't like these politics equals Bush to Hitler, because they want to scare the public to not voting for Bush.
 
Originally posted by: glenn1
Conservatives, here's one for you.

We've all seen countless times the reasons overtly given for the invasion of Iraq. To me however, those reasons don't square with what I've actually observed of the behavior of the more vocal opponents of the war. Their statements and actions are far, far too visceral and over-the-top to be the product of a simple disagreement over policy. Heck, I disagree with your side (and the left as well) all the time on policy issues, anything from questions on gay marriage to taxation to civil liberties, and yet I don't go around comparing you to Hitler or suggesting you be tried as a war criminal (or for that matter, tolerating statements by those that do a lá Michael Moore, moveon.org, etc).

Obviously there are plenty of those who disagree with Bush in part or whole yet do so in a civil, constructive manner and don't peddle conspiracy theories (Sen. Lieberman jumps to mind as an example), but I'm not talking about them. I'm referring to the virulently anti-Bush and anti-American set out there, the ones peddling the conspiracy theories and claiming Bush = fascist, etc. IMHO, there's more to it than what they are overtly letting on. What do you feel is the true, underlying (and so far unstated) grievance that the extremely vocal opponents of the Iraqi invasion have?
Click to expand...

Is there really a reason to believe that the extremely vocal opponents of the Iraq invasion are not voicing their opinions honestly? If try to assign a *reasoning* to radical dissent that already has a voice, then I would be guilty of peddling conspiracy theories.

There are disagreements that occur that you may see as "over the top" . But I see policy being created and changed because people use strength in making their arguments and in defending their positions. This is part of a mechanism that our political system has evolved into.

You observe actions of individuals that voice their opinions in a different way than you do. I see actions of individuals that are different than you and expect their actions and the voicing of their opinions to be different from yours. This is a part of human nature.

I accept the varied opinions on given issues as they are. I reject the idea that any opinion should be rejected just because I may see it as radical.

But, that is just my conservative opinion.🙂 It is rather conservative.😉

It comes from hearing and weighing an array of opinions, applying a little common sense, and then forming my own.
 
I don't remember calling the left unpatriotic, that was all you. I don't and wouldn't question the patriotism of anyone, including those who equate Bush to Hitler.
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Oh, really?
quote:
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I'm referring to the virulently anti-Bush and anti-American set out there,
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Click to expand...

Yes, there are plenty of those out there who oppose the war and are anti-American and whose patriotism I don't question, mainly because THEY AREN'T AMERICANS. While I see you didn't post in this thread,
Anandtech thread - More than 40,000 protest Bush in Istanbul, I'm sure you're aware that there are people of all nationalities who similarly hate Bush. I think it's probably fair to say someone holding a sign saying "down with Yankee imperialism" in a foreign country might be harboring some anti-American feelings, don't you?

I'd say there might be a miniscule fringe who are American and whom I wouldn't classify as patriotic (who say advocate the violent overthrow of our government) but that subset is so microscopic and otherwise unhinged that I could care less the perceived reason for their grievances. I am not attempting to conflate that group with the larger group of those who IMHO take their differences with Bush a bit too far (by calling him Hitler, etc) and do not wish anyone else to do so either.
 
Originally posted by: perknose
LOL, glenn1's first real probing question for the right, "Right, why IS the left really so unpatriotic?"
Click to expand...


Originally posted by: arsbanned
Nail...on...the...head
Click to expand...


That is not at all what I got from the op, but if the two of you did I would like to expand on your theory.


I hope this is ok glenn1


Left, why do you think that Right perceives you as being so unpatriotic?
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by: glenn1
I don't remember calling the left unpatriotic, that was all you. I don't and wouldn't question the patriotism of anyone, including those who equate Bush to Hitler.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, really?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm referring to the virulently anti-Bush and anti-American set out there,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Click to expand...
Yes, there are plenty of those out there who oppose the war and are anti-American and whose patriotism I don't question, mainly because THEY AREN'T AMERICANS.
Click to expand...
So, you were ONLY asking about the non-American radical left, since by your own words there are many, many, many Americans who are viruently anti-Bush and yet, since you would never question their patriotism, pro-American? By your own stated words, then, you were NOT asking about them?

C'mon, glenn1. :roll:
I'm referring to the virulently anti-Bush and anti-American set out there,
Click to expand...
Only asking, by our OWN STATED DEFINITION, about the non-American left? :shocked:

In a post in which ALL of your references, save Hitler, are AMERICAN?????? Michael Moore, moveon.org, Sen. Lieberman, gay marriage, taxes, civil liberties??

C'mon, now, pardner!

Unless you will now claim that you were talking about gay marriage, taxes , and civil liberties questions in Sierra Leone . . . or was that Burkina Faso? :laugh:
 
quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: glenn1

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't remember calling the left unpatriotic, that was all you. I don't and wouldn't question the patriotism of anyone, including those who equate Bush to Hitler.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, really?
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm referring to the virulently anti-Bush and anti-American set out there,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, there are plenty of those out there who oppose the war and are anti-American and whose patriotism I don't question, mainly because THEY AREN'T AMERICANS.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, you were ONLY asking about the non-American radical left, since by your own words there are many, many, many Americans who are viruently anti-Bush and yet, since you would never question their patriotism, pro-American? By your own stated words, then, you were NOT asking about them?

C'mon, glenn1.
quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm referring to the virulently anti-Bush and anti-American set out there,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only asking, by our OWN STATED DEFINITION, about the non-American left?

In a post in which ALL of your references, save Hitler, are AMERICAN?????? Michael Moore, moveon.org, Sen. Lieberman, gay marriage, taxes, civil liberties??

C'mon, now, pardner!

Unless you will now claim that you were talking about gay marriage, taxes , and civil liberties questions in Sierra Leone . . . or was that Burkina Faso?
Click to expand...

Fine, construe it to mean I was calling you unpatriotic if it makes you feel better. Now that we have that out of the way, stop crapping my thread so that people can post on my original question.
 
Originally posted by: glenn1
Fine, construe it to mean I was calling you unpatriotic if it makes you feel better. Now that we have that out of the way, stop crapping my thread so that people can post on my original question.
Click to expand...
1. Don't put words in my mouth.

2. Try admitting you made a mistake. You did. There is no dishonor in that, only in not admitting it.

3. Don't brand my exposing your mistake as a thread crap. It is NOT. :|
 
1. Don't put words in my mouth.

2. Try admitting you made a mistake. You did. There is no dishonor in that, only in not admitting it.

3. Don't brand my exposing your mistake as a thread crap. It is NOT.
Click to expand...

Fine, I made a mistake. Now that I have said what you wanted said, please discontinue posting in my thread unless you have something to say that relates to the question posed in the OP. I do not care what you think my feelings on anyone's patriotism are, and it's completely non-germane to this thread in any event.
 
Conservatives didnt pull the unpatriotic label for the "wacky" liberals out of their A$$, the "wacky" liberals earned it. When I say "wacky" liberals, I dont mean liberals, I mean the far left "wacky liberals", and this board has quite a few of them. The "wacky" liberals are the ones that celebrate bad news for our country just so it will reflect on Bush and get their man elected. They celebrate Abu Ghraib (sp?), they celebrate bad news about the economy, they say they would vote for Sadaam Hussein over Bush, etc. You can see it when you read the New York Times, when they put the Abu Ghraib scandal on the front page for 45+ days, long after the story was stale. They did this just to hurt Bush, even though it stirred up emotions in the middle east and put our troops in more danger. They celebrate the Michael Moore movie, even though it will spread lies and distortions through the middle east, and put our troops in more danger. You people know who you are, and you fair minded liberals know who these people are. Whether you support Bush or not, when you tear down his character on the world stage just because you disagree with his policy, you are unpatriotic. He's the President of the United States, meaning he is "your" president. He is tasked to protect "you", and whether you agree with him or not, he does what he does because he feels it is the like thing to do. I have no doubt that Clinton, Bush Sr., Gore, and Jimmy Carter felt the same.
 
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President Right or Wrong, is not only Unpatriotic and Servile, but is Morally Treasonable to the American Public."
- Theodore Roosevelt

Edit: Forgot to mention - Teddy was a Republican 😉
 
I can't speak to the concerns of others, but many people seem to take delight in the war. War is not a horror, it's a tool to be used, and indeed a desireable one. When others delight in death when brought about by THEIR country, things have gone too far. You ask why people become upset? Because we are killing people, some of which have done no harm. When you have held the guts of a dying child, or seen death close up and personal due to unnatural causes, you learn to resent those who promote or view it in romantic terms. This isn't a war. It's a video game to many. My question is not how people can become enraged, but how can they not?

Also, is this a conservative/liberal issue, really?

Does being conservative mean you delight in war? That it is desireable? Is the imagination of some people so limited, and are they so lazy to not try every effort to promote diplomacy and other avenues of action?

You may remember before the war you posted a thread and I commented on a few things that could be tried to improve the Iraq situation before the war. It seems none of those were tried or anything else for that matter. War was the easiest solution, or that seemed the case to many.

When Bush delights in being the War President, when diplomacy is a thing of the past, when one man declares that you are either for him or against him rather than we being for justice and good judgement, then expect scorn for that President. That it spills over to his supporters should not suprise you.

There are those who I disagree with on this board whom I can respect, who thought that this was the right action to take, but I havent time for anyone who's gleeful solution is to nuke a people, or think that a war is a good thing. A sad necessity at times perhaps, once the need is clear and all alternatives are genuinely exausted, but never good.
 
I agree with WinstonSmith. I too have stated before that war should be the course of last resort.

I take no delight in the blunders of the Administration, but I am often angered and outraged at them. In addition, I find Bush and his minions secretive, deceptive, and misleading; unworthy of my trust and respect.

It may well be true that Bush acts in a manner he actually thinks best for the country. If so, then he and I have vastly different visions of what America should be.
 
I don't think most people understand the anger on the liberal side of things. The Bush supporters can afford to be cool and calm, after all, they are "winning". If you think invading Iraq was the right thing to do, you're in luck...we're doing it! If you think some civil liberties need to be given up to fight terrorism, it's your lucky day. If you see gays as sick and "different" from normal people like yourself, you certainly have the right man in office.

It's a little bit different when you disagree with those in power. Trying to change something is always more difficult and frustrating than trying to keep something the same. People seem to forget that.
 
I can't speak to the concerns of others, but many people seem to take delight in the war. War is not a horror, it's a tool to be used, and indeed a desireable one. When others delight in death when brought about by THEIR country, things have gone too far. You ask why people become upset? Because we are killing people, some of which have done no harm. When you have held the guts of a dying child, or seen death close up and personal due to unnatural causes, you learn to resent those who promote or view it in romantic terms. This isn't a war. It's a video game to many. My question is not how people can become enraged, but how can they not?

Also, is this a conservative/liberal issue, really?

Does being conservative mean you delight in war? That it is desireable? Is the imagination of some people so limited, and are they so lazy to not try every effort to promote diplomacy and other avenues of action?

You may remember before the war you posted a thread and I commented on a few things that could be tried to improve the Iraq situation before the war. It seems none of those were tried or anything else for that matter. War was the easiest solution, or that seemed the case to many.

When Bush delights in being the War President, when diplomacy is a thing of the past, when one man declares that you are either for him or against him rather than we being for justice and good judgement, then expect scorn for that President. That it spills over to his supporters should not suprise you.

There are those who I disagree with on this board whom I can respect, who thought that this was the right action to take, but I havent time for anyone who's gleeful solution is to nuke a people, or think that a war is a good thing. A sad necessity at times perhaps, once the need is clear and all alternatives are genuinely exausted, but never good.
Click to expand...

I thought I had made this clear, but let me do so again. My post isn't about you or anyone else who simply disagrees with the war or the Bush administration, even those who will sometimes say or agree with unfortunate things on occassion and out of frustration. I was referring to those that have become totally disconnected to reality over things and act totally unhinged here in the forums. Like the types that suggest that 9-11 or the invasion of Iraq were "Zionist plots," continuously referring to Bush as a "war criminal" and suggesting that he be removed from office by means other than the upcoming election, that sort of thing. I'm not going to name names here, but there's a couple of people on the forums who are prototypes of this personna, one anti-Bush and one pro-Bush. Those are the folks I'm referring to in my post.
 
Maybe if you construct it EVEN MORE carefully next time you'll get the intended responses?
It seems like an attempt to paint those opposed to Bush and this absurd war as "wackos" and "anti-American". Nothing could be further from the truth.
In fact, what gives people the idea that nefarious things are going on is the Administration itself. They try to cover things up (abu Ghraib, for instance), they created intelligence, or stretched available facts to suit the WMD threat, they "out" CIA agents whose husbands disagree with their policies, etc etc....
Even the VPs use of profanity in the Senate chamber against an esteemed Senator sends shivers down the collective spine of those paying attention. What's next, he whips out a 9mm and disposes of a political opponent? This is ignoring the Bin Laden/Bush connection. I mean, come on, this administration provide people with plenty of grist.
 
Originally posted by: glenn1
I can't speak to the concerns of others, but many people seem to take delight in the war. War is not a horror, it's a tool to be used, and indeed a desireable one. When others delight in death when brought about by THEIR country, things have gone too far. You ask why people become upset? Because we are killing people, some of which have done no harm. When you have held the guts of a dying child, or seen death close up and personal due to unnatural causes, you learn to resent those who promote or view it in romantic terms. This isn't a war. It's a video game to many. My question is not how people can become enraged, but how can they not?

Also, is this a conservative/liberal issue, really?

Does being conservative mean you delight in war? That it is desireable? Is the imagination of some people so limited, and are they so lazy to not try every effort to promote diplomacy and other avenues of action?

You may remember before the war you posted a thread and I commented on a few things that could be tried to improve the Iraq situation before the war. It seems none of those were tried or anything else for that matter. War was the easiest solution, or that seemed the case to many.

When Bush delights in being the War President, when diplomacy is a thing of the past, when one man declares that you are either for him or against him rather than we being for justice and good judgement, then expect scorn for that President. That it spills over to his supporters should not suprise you.

There are those who I disagree with on this board whom I can respect, who thought that this was the right action to take, but I havent time for anyone who's gleeful solution is to nuke a people, or think that a war is a good thing. A sad necessity at times perhaps, once the need is clear and all alternatives are genuinely exausted, but never good.
Click to expand...

I thought I had made this clear, but let me do so again. My post isn't about you or anyone else who simply disagrees with the war or the Bush administration, even those who will sometimes say or agree with unfortunate things on occassion and out of frustration. I was referring to those that have become totally disconnected to reality over things and act totally unhinged here in the forums. Like the types that suggest that 9-11 or the invasion of Iraq were "Zionist plots," continuously referring to Bush as a "war criminal" and suggesting that he be removed from office by means other than the upcoming election, that sort of thing. I'm not going to name names here, but there's a couple of people on the forums who are prototypes of this personna, one anti-Bush and one pro-Bush. Those are the folks I'm referring to in my post.
Click to expand...
Those people do their cause more harm than good by being out of touch. They do however serve the purpose of being perfect for those with opposing viewpoints to label all whom they disagree with.
 
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