A question for people that DO believe in God:

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: loic2003

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: loic2003
I see your points, but disagree. I'm not attempting to force a set of ideas upon people, I'm trying to get them to reject ancient ideas and build their own.

I dunno dude... calling us stupid children...

If you look at the idols at various stages of a child's life they change almost uniformly. From baby to child, parents are like a god to them. There is noone else in their life. Next up often comes a teacher. Soon after this, it's their peers. Previous influences are rejected (the classic stage where a teenager is embarrased by it's parents). Depending upon rate of maturity, the youngster next becomes much more of an individual, not caring what their friends think about them, etc. When adolescents reach this stage, we see them as young adults instead of children.

Looking at this same example, but with humanity being the child, the religious are at the state where they look up to a 'parent' (higher being). I would like to see the child grow up and move on beyond this stage, eventually to hopefully being the mature, free-thinking young adult.

You make a very broad assumption about religion. That is, you obviously belive that free thinking and religion are mutually exclusive. This is not the case. People can choose to blindly believe everything their rabbi, priest, or imam tells them, or they can study the religion and come to their own conclusions.

Much of religion doesnt even relate to god. Sometimes it's the cultural values that people hold onto, a sense of community. And for some like myself really do believe in god. This doesnt mean that somehow I am now incapable of thinking for myself. It doesnt mean that I've been brainwashed into believing whatever my parents taught me. My mother does not believe in god.

Your blanket assumption that we should eliminate religion in order to free the human mind is a really naive assumption. It is human nature itself that shackles the human mind. Abolishing religion is first of all impossible, and secondly, even if you did, other beliefs and traditions, and ideas would emerge to replace religion with all the same evils.

I understand the basis of your argument... but you really need to take the time and think about this a little more. I think you'll find that Religion is only an excuse for evil, it is not the source.

-Max

 

[Unheard]

Originally posted by: loic2003
Whilst many may be of the impression that religion is generally harmless, I personally believe it is a crippling and quite sickening practice that really should be abolishished, made illegal, or at the very least, introduced to youngsters only at a certain age, perhaps around fifteen or sisteen when they have a decent education already, with a little luck.
We all like to hide our kids from the evils of this world; we restrict their viewing of violent games or movies and try to maintain their innocence for as long as neccessary until they can accept, understand and make an educated choice about the path they wish to make through life.
Religion somehow still has missed this scrutiny, however. It is perfectly legal to indoctrinate your child with ancient stories and pass them off as truth. Bizzarly, we expect parental supervision for a mild fictional movie, yet tell them if they don't do as they are told that they will actually go to hell and be burned/tortured for eternity. It's fvcking sick and should not be tolerated by any modern society.
How do you feel rates of belief would go if children were not exposed to any religion until they have had an education? If you hadn't drilled into the mind of an infant an idea, but instead introduced it to a neutral 16 year old, would they snap up the idea and dismiss their scientific roots? I think not.
Would it be acceptible to force a child into a particular political choice/party from infancy? no.

It makes me angry that people are doing this to their kids and noone minds.

I don't care if what I write offends the religious. Breaking from religious shackles isn't going to be easy. Some people hide their head in the sand, others vocally reject and run from it, but at the end of the day what I say makes total sense. Take the plunge, I dare you. Take up thinking, it's fun!

Whilst many may be of the impression that science is generally harmless, I personally believe it is a crippling and quite sickening practice that really should be abolished, made illegal, or at the very least, introduced to youngsters only at a certain age, perhaps around fifteen or sixteen when they have a decent education in religion already, with a little luck.
We all like to hide our kids from the evils of this world; we restrict their viewing of violent games or movies and try to maintain their innocence for as long as neccessary until they can accept, understand and make an educated choice about the path they wish to make through life.
Science somehow still has missed this scrutiny, however. It is perfectly legal to infoctrinate your child with stories of how the entire universe was created in one gigantic bang, and human life started as a 1 celled orginism is the primordial sludge, and pass it off as truth. Bizzarly, we expect parental supervision for a mild fictional movie, yet tell them their life is completely meaningless and serves no purpose other than to make someone else money and die. It's fvcking sick and should not be tolerated by any modern society.
How do you feel rates of belief would go if children were not exposed to any science until they have had an education in religion? If you hadn't drilled into the mind of an infant an idea, but instead introduced it to a neutral 16 year old, would they snap up the idea and dismiss their religious roots? I think not.
Would it be acceptible to force a child into a particular political choice/party from infancy? no.

It makes me angry that people are doing this to their kids and noone minds.

I don't care if what I write offends the scientists. Breaking from sciences shackles isn't going to be easy. Some people hide their head in the sand, others vocally reject and run from it, but at the end of the day what I say makes total sense. Take the plunge, I dare you. Take up religion, it's fun!





Hmm your argument works both ways..... It would seem that science is nothing more than a religion in and of its self that believes in a deity called itself. After all, science will fix all problems, wont it? Science is everywhere. Science knows everything (or eventually will). I'm not shoving Christianity down your throat, quit shoving your ideology down mine.

 

[Abel007]

Originally posted by: loic2003

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: loic2003
I see your points, but disagree. I'm not attempting to force a set of ideas upon people, I'm trying to get them to reject ancient ideas and build their own.

That's not what you sound like. You sound like someone who would have their (non)religion made into law, which is no different than what any fundamentalist wants. As noted above, you literally are what you seek to destroy. Which is no shocker, most people are.

I would make a law that prevents forcing ideas upon young, easily influenced minds and set a minimum age at which any non-scientific/fictional ideas can be introduced. Naturally, it's a complete impossibility and we all have to wait until the religions still going around fade out/destroy each other (more likely the latter, looking at the news).

Why should parents be witheld from teaching their beliefs/non-beliefs to their children? Because you think its a good idea? Remember when we, as kids, got spankings and disciplined for our actions? Whats going on now? A child gets spanked in public for whatever reason and the police are called and the parent warned or the child is taken away. This is just a small example of what happens when people assume the law needs to be changed for the greater good of the children. Beliefs being passed on do not need to be affected by a law or anything else.

Also, the day religion goes away is the day the world ends.

 

[deepred98]

Originally posted by: loic2003
I see your points, but disagree. I'm not attempting to force a set of ideas upon people, I'm trying to get them to reject ancient ideas and build their own.

Those phrases basically mean the same thing

Force: To compel through pressure or necessity

I'm pretty sure making a law is some type of pressure

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: loic2003

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: loic2003
I see your points, but disagree. I'm not attempting to force a set of ideas upon people, I'm trying to get them to reject ancient ideas and build their own.

That's not what you sound like. You sound like someone who would have their (non)religion made into law, which is no different than what any fundamentalist wants. As noted above, you literally are what you seek to destroy. Which is no shocker, most people are.

I would make a law that prevents forcing ideas upon young, easily influenced minds and set a minimum age at which any non-scientific/fictional ideas can be introduced. Naturally, it's a complete impossibility and we all have to wait until the religions still going around fade out/destroy each other (more likely the latter, looking at the news).

I rest my case. You make it for me.

 

[clamum]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Yours was a crock of sh!t too. I'll paraphrase it for you here:

1) I'm young and impressionable and my girlfriend is part of the god-squad.
2) In a class, some book/idea made an impression on me.
3) One day I felt good
4) Now I believe in god.

I like the bit about blind faith. We understand a huge amount about the universe, but we don't know everything. My faith is in the fact that we may one day figure it out, or at least, if we don't, that what happened is physically possible.

Feeling good for a day!? You clown. What's more likely, an overactive pituitary gland for a day releasing endorphines or "god touching you"?

Like I said, stop believeing in fairytales, kiddo.

So basically you are so vain that you believe there is nothing out there that is infinitely beyond human comprehension? Humans are such a profound construct of random occurances that we can inevitably understand all there is to be known in the universe, even how the thing was created? You have quite a bit of blind faith in human science.

We don't know sh!t from shineola yet, not even close. Yet with this limited amount of information we have collected and processed through our human only perspective, we are able to dismiss any possibility of the universe being much deeper than our human created sciences. That is one egotistical, pig-headed, short-sighted and just straight up ignorant way of going about things. You as a human are incapable of full understanding of the universe, yet you convince yourself in complete blind faith that someday, somehow you will know all the secrets of this incredibly vast reality you are in.

You don't have to believe in "god' or a structured religion, but you absolutely have to keep your mind open enough to consider the endless possibilities. Though me expecting you to keep an open mind is also an incredible leap of blind faith, or a fairytale of sort.

Nice post.

 

[Dacalo]

I was born atheist, and have been going to church on and off since age 9 (I am 26 now). I am nowhere near considered a devout Christian. I don't read the bible reguarly, nor do I pray before every meal, etc.

But I believe in God. Not necessary a Christian God, but some form of higher being. There are just too many things in life and science that are amazingly intricate which could not be just a chance in my perspective.

 

[Babbles]

Originally posted by: SampSon

Yours was a crock of sh!t too. I'll paraphrase it for you here:

1) I'm young and impressionable and my girlfriend is part of the god-squad.
2) In a class, some book/idea made an impression on me.
3) One day I felt good
4) Now I believe in god.

I like the bit about blind faith. We understand a huge amount about the universe, but we don't know everything. My faith is in the fact that we may one day figure it out, or at least, if we don't, that what happened is physically possible.

Feeling good for a day!? You clown. What's more likely, an overactive pituitary gland for a day releasing endorphines or "god touching you"?

Like I said, stop believeing in fairytales, kiddo.

So basically you are so vain that you believe there is nothing out there that is infinitely beyond human comprehension? Humans are such a profound construct of random occurances that we can inevitably understand all there is to be known in the universe, even how the thing was created? You have quite a bit of blind faith in human science.

We don't know sh!t from shineola yet, not even close. Yet with this limited amount of information we have collected and processed through our human only perspective, we are able to dismiss any possibility of the universe being much deeper than our human created sciences. That is one egotistical, pig-headed, short-sighted and just straight up ignorant way of going about things. You as a human are incapable of full understanding of the universe, yet you convince yourself in complete blind faith that someday, somehow you will know all the secrets of this incredibly vast reality you are in.

You don't have to believe in "god' or a structured religion, but you absolutely have to keep your mind open enough to consider the endless possibilities. Though me expecting you to keep an open mind is also an incredible leap of blind faith, or a fairytale of sort.

Now that is a good post! That is essentially how I feel; I am no longer consider myself a practicing Christian however I - and others - should keep asking "What if" in regards to what else is out there in the universe. It is silly to think that we as arrogant humans somehow have managed or will manage to discover all of the mysterious of life, the universe, and everything.

Cheers, :beer:

 

[xSauronx]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: xSauronx

Originally posted by: Abel007

Originally posted by: loic2003

Originally posted by: BigToque

Originally posted by: loic2003
this thread again... another bunch of lamers looking for direction who don't have the balls to figure it out for themselves and so lean back on the belief of a deity so they can just let 'god' do all the work for them.

Seriously, the mental attitude/thought process of the religious is on par with that of a 10 year old kid. Stop believing in fairtytales and move on. Yes, we don't know everything, but that doesn't mean there must be a god. A fair while back, people believed thhunder/lightning was the strike of Thor, the norse god's hammer. Do we still believe this? No. would you look like a fvcking tool if you did still try and drone on and on that "no really, we're not sure about lighning, it must be a god"? Yes you would. As the human race has evolved religions have died out. As we evolve further, so will christianity and islam.

Grow the fvck up and stop thinking like a child. There is no santa, there is no tooth fairy, there is no god/higher being. Get over it.

/religion.

What a well thought out and convincing post.

:roll:

Yours was a crock of sh!t too. I'll paraphrase it for you here:

1) I'm young and impressionable and my girlfriend is part of the god-squad.
2) In a class, some book/idea made an impression on me.
3) One day I felt good
4) Now I believe in god.

I like the bit about blind faith. We understand a huge amount about the universe, but we don't know everything. My faith is in the fact that we may one day figure it out, or at least, if we don't, that what happened is physically possible.

Feeling good for a day!? You clown. What's more likely, an overactive pituitary gland for a day releasing endorphines or "god touching you"?

Like I said, stop believeing in fairytales, kiddo.

While your opinion is your opinion the topic clearly states "A question for people that DO believe in God..." and its clear you are not one of those people. So check yourself out of the thread and carry on about your life any way you see fit.

To stay on topic, I believe in God because something had to create the air we breathe, the trees, the people, etc...

why?

you dont believe the universe as we see it could just *poof* be here, right?

but god, that you cant see, or prove, *can* ?

how can you justify that? by saying the bible says so?

but then, you cant prove everything in the bible. some of its wrong, some contradictory, some of it just plain un-provable. so you have faith...thats it right? faith is why you believe in god and the bible

...so why faith in an invisible, all-powerful man that you cant possibly prove anything about, being there to take care of things, but not faith in what you *live through* just *being there* when you can actually *see feel touch hear and smell* it?

and why *that* god? why not another god or gods that billions of others believe in?

Why do you find it so hard to understand that this thread did not say...

Post why you think everyone who believes in god is wrong... it simply says Why do you believe in god... Can't you just leave well enough alone?

i was asking why he did in a different way.

its like the op

but more specific.

not why do you believe in god....but why does this particular poster feel that the christian god should be the first thing he assumes belief in, over no god, or hell, even other gods, or just some type of higher being.

i didnt say he was wrong, i just asked a question.

personally, i was raised christian. i wasnt given a choice, it was told to me, drilled into me, and i just thought thats the way it was, without giving any thought, until a couple of years ago.

some people are converted later in life, from atheism, agnosticism, or from one religion into another.

some people make stuff up.

some people think they see god or talked to him.

i was asking this guy about *his* beliefs.

 

[loic2003]

Originally posted by: Doboji
You make a very broad assumption about religion. That is, you obviously belive that free thinking and religion are mutually exclusive. This is not the case. People can choose to blindly believe everything their rabbi, priest, or imam tells them, or they can study the religion and come to their own conclusions.

Much of religion doesnt even relate to god. Sometimes it's the cultural values that people hold onto, a sense of community. And for some like myself really do believe in god. This doesnt mean that somehow I am now incapable of thinking for myself. It doesnt mean that I've been brainwashed into believing whatever my parents taught me. My mother does not believe in god.

Your blanket assumption that we should eliminate religion in order to free the human mind is a really naive assumption. It is human nature itself that shackles the human mind. Abolishing religion is first of all impossible, and secondly, even if you did, other beliefs and traditions, and ideas would emerge to replace religion with all the same evils.

I understand the basis of your argument... but you really need to take the time and think about this a little more. I think you'll find that Religion is only an excuse for evil, it is not the source.
-Max

Free thinking and religion are exclusive. It annoys me when people live by only certain aspects of the bible. If you pick and choose which sections to live by, you're clearly just making it up for yourself. Either live wholly by the bible/holy book (follow the religion) or reject it and be a free thinker. You might as well pick any book with quotes you like and live by that: it's no more a religion.
cultural values, tradition, respect, standards of good living should all be taught by parents. I'd prefer to assume people in this day and age have the intelligence to know what is a decent way to live: what is proper, what is wrong. there is no need for ancient texts.

Originally posted by: Unheard
Hmm your argument works both ways..... It would seem that science is nothing more than a religion in and of its self that believes in a deity called itself. After all, science will fix all problems, wont it? Science is everywhere. Science knows everything (or eventually will). I'm not shoving Christianity down your throat, quit shoving your ideology down mine.

Well, swapping the words over doen't make it 'work'. Science doesn't push moral values and is neutral whereas religions are not. Many are, in fact, quite gresome and certainly archaic.
Science does not assume anything, or force thoughts. it's a process that anyone can contribute to (note: updating, renual and evolution of thoughts/ideas is a good thing) and can be disputed by whomever has sufficient evidence to negate whatever they wish to. Is does not tell you how to live your life, nor does it form the basis of hate. Because of this i feel your comment is inherently flawed.

Originally posted by: Abel007
Why should parents be witheld from teaching their beliefs/non-beliefs to their children? Because you think its a good idea? Remember when we, as kids, got spankings and disciplined for our actions? Whats going on now? A child gets spanked in public for whatever reason and the police are called and the parent warned or the child is taken away. This is just a small example of what happens when people assume the law needs to be changed for the greater good of the children. Beliefs being passed on do not need to be affected by a law or anything else.

the example you provide is a perfect example of a human using their brain to judge a situation and figure the optimal way through it. A religion (I'm going to broadly base this on christianity since this will be the majority religion int hese forums) is a set of cruel, old fashioned beliefs from aeons ago. I support humans thiking for themselves, but reject living by ancient books.

Originally posted by: SampSon
So basically you are so vain that you believe there is nothing out there that is infinitely beyond human comprehension? Humans are such a profound construct of random occurances that we can inevitably understand all there is to be known in the universe, even how the thing was created? You have quite a bit of blind faith in human science.

We don't know sh!t from shineola yet, not even close. Yet with this limited amount of information we have collected and processed through our human only perspective, we are able to dismiss any possibility of the universe being much deeper than our human created sciences. That is one egotistical, pig-headed, short-sighted and just straight up ignorant way of going about things. You as a human are incapable of full understanding of the universe, yet you convince yourself in complete blind faith that someday, somehow you will know all the secrets of this incredibly vast reality you are in.

You don't have to believe in "god' or a structured religion, but you absolutely have to keep your mind open enough to consider the endless possibilities. Though me expecting you to keep an open mind is also an incredible leap of blind faith, or a fairytale of sort.

I liked this comment.

I agree with it too. We don't know everythign , essentially quite little, but because we don't know it all, it's no reason to assume there is some deity out there. In my post, please nnote that I nowhere assumed that we would undertsand it all, but because we don't, it doesn't mean someone else does.
I'd rather people spent their time working on learning more rather than wasting time blindly following religions. Imagine what we could have achieved if all the time humans had spent praying/building holy buildings/fighting over religion was instead spent on science and improving our own knowledge.


This thread has been interesting.

 

[z42]

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
We have physical laws that say that matter and energy can be neither created or destroyed...only converted from one form to another.

So where did all this mass and energy come from...why is it here?

This and many other such questions led me to the belief that there is some kind of "supreme being" out there. The complexity of living and unliving organisms and the balance to allow those things to exist/grow/live is too much for me to believe that it was all by accident. How did the universe get here? What events led to the big bang? The more I investigated, the more I came to belive that the laws of physics do not jive with the theory of evolution. Natural selection, sure.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: saymyname

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
We have physical laws that say that matter and energy can be neither created or destroyed...only converted from one form to another.

So where did all this mass and energy come from...why is it here?

Any cosmology course will end at a point where science can't explain it anymore.

That of course doesn't mean that the obvious conclusion is that there is a god who had his son immaculately conceived on our ball of rock and that he died, was resurrected, and that people should spend their whole lives worshipping him.

If you study religion you'll see that all religions are basically the same. If you want to use them as a model to build structure in your children's life then I guess I can't argue with that (although I would hope you'd have the cognitive ability to do it without the lame brainwashing stories).

You have to ask yourself why we have religion in this country. Could it be for the money? They don't pay taxes and collect tons of money from loyal sheep. Could it be for the power? Church leaders have a lot of power (and unfortionately use their position to abuse people in many ways from taking their money, to brainwashing, to sexual abuse).

SSHHHH!!!!!! No one is supposed to know about this stuff!!!

Then one day while I was at work, walking down the hallways. I felt something in my heart and mind. I just stopped, and I felt warm all over and couldn't stop smiling. What I felt, I can only describe as the purest sense of love I've ever felt, and that doesn't even begin to do the feeling justice.

Someone brought a bong into their cubicle, and you happened to wander by. Or else someone slipped LSD into the coffee.

There were times when I wished I could have believed in God, and sent out prayers just asking for a sign, or anything that might convince me.

So, you were an atheist, yet you prayed? To what did you pray?
You sought a deity, and this feeling you had, rather than attributing to some change in brain chemistry, or just sort of reaching a state where you were content with the world for a change, you think it's a higher power? Interesting....

The only "higher force" I "believe in" is gravity. It ultimately determines what's going to happen.

 

[JEDI]

Originally posted by: ruffilb
I ask this question in response to the other thread, because I'm of the opinion that people aren't born into the world with a Christian/Muslim/Jewish/etc worldview, and that they have to acquire it over time. Were you simply taught to believe by your parents or community? Did you really believe then, because you were told to, or did it take something else to make you really believe?

Again, not trying to offend anyone.

If you have not already done so, please answer My poll.

God is a false profit

 

[hjo3]

I'm agnostic -- not sure whether there's a god or not (and whether or not it cares about us if it does exist). But I do believe in an afterlife. I think our minds all go to the same place when we die (regardless of "sins" and religion) and it's better than life on earth. As for why I believe this, I can't really say. It just seems inherently and necessarily fair to me. Like, it's an opportunity we all deserve so much that it must be inevitable. Obviously I don't prosyletize this or anything (what would be the point anyway?).

 

[Ryan]

I hate the whole "Faith" argument. Faith is the equivelent of putting your thumbs in your ears, and screaming "lalalalalalalala" when rational ideas are presented to the "believer".

 

[eits]

i believe in God because i've felt his communication. one night, after much searching for whether or not God exists, i got fed up with trying to find proof and humbled myself and asked that if God existed to please reveal himself to me. then, i felt like God smacked me in the head and said to me, "i've been here the entire time, you jackass! i've tried to get you to look up and see me soooo many times in your life (shows me a slideshow of the various times in my life God's been there to try and hint that he's been there for me, except it happened in a fraction of a second... it was pretty intense). you were too proud to notice me." i cried that night... still not completely sure why.... don't know whether it was because i was in awe or if it was joy or if it was guilt or if it was repentance or all of the above...

i'm still not sure about christ's divinity, though. after realizing and experiencing a little of God's greatness, it's just really hard for me to wholeheartedly say that a man was in fact God incarnate. it just seems too blasphemous to me, but i'm not putting it out of the realm of possibility. i just don't know, yet...

i honestly don't know what religious category i fall under... i'm technically not a christian, jew, or muslim. i guess i'm just spiritual.

anyways, that's my story of why i believe in God.

 

[Sc4freak]

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
We have physical laws that say that matter and energy can be neither created or destroyed...only converted from one form to another.

So where did all this mass and energy come from...why is it here?

If you're referring to the beginning of the universe, then that argument isn't valid. The rules and laws and properties of this universe might not apply in other universes. For example, the speed of light in this universe is a constant, at just below 300,000 km/sec. In another universe, the speed of light could be 1 cm/sec, or maybe electromagnetic radiation might not exist at all.

 

[chambersc]

Originally posted by: Ryan
I hate the whole "Faith" argument. Faith is the equivelent of putting your thumbs in your ears, and screaming "lalalalalalalala" when rational ideas are presented to the "believer".

So is atheism. Since there is no proof either way, both extremes are one in the same.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: ruffilb
I ask this question in response to the other thread, because I'm of the opinion that people aren't born into the world with a Christian/Muslim/Jewish/etc worldview, and that they have to acquire it over time. Were you simply taught to believe by your parents or community? Did you really believe then, because you were told to, or did it take something else to make you really believe?

Again, not trying to offend anyone.

If you have not already done so, please answer My poll.

Brainwashing through childhood...