A Question for Conservatives

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Ozoned
There is no accountability in the Canadian social model.

Please explain how this is so.

BSE anyone?

Cookie anyone? What the hell does BSE have to do with the Canadian social model?

[*]Stunts premise is that the Canadian Social model is not inferior to that of the Us.

[*] Stunt said that there was no debate.

[*] I entered a contension to prove that there was in-fact debate to be had.

Are you really that daft, or is it just an act?

Now comes the part where you explain how BSE fits into all of this and how there is no accountability in the Canadian social model. (I'm especially interested in your BSE connection).

 

[Stunt]

So conservatives have no reason to criticize the Canadian system...yet tell the people who are trying to construct a economically feasable model to leave the country?

What about this BSE issue?

Do people actually think that paying down the debt over a span of 20+ years is a bad thing?

If you cannot find any reasons in this model to become more conservative...should you not question why conservatism is a good thing...in general.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Stunt
So conservatives have no reason to criticize the Canadian system...yet tell the people who are trying to construct a economically feasable model to leave the country?

What about this BSE issue?

Do people actually think that paying down the debt over a span of 20+ years is a bad thing?

If you cannot find any reasons in this model to become more conservative...should you not question why conservatism is a good thing...in general.

The canadian system is not perfect either, just a different sent of comprimised and problem. Canadians do pay far more tax than the people in the us. High federal income tax+ high provencial income tax +high sales taxes out weighs what is paid here. This also has caused a bit of a brain drain for canada, notably in the medical field. Everyone gets medical coverage in canada, however it it the goverment that controls the rationing of it and not the consumer.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Stunt
So conservatives have no reason to criticize the Canadian system...yet tell the people who are trying to construct a economically feasable model to leave the country?

What about this BSE issue?

Do people actually think that paying down the debt over a span of 20+ years is a bad thing?

If you cannot find any reasons in this model to become more conservative...should you not question why conservatism is a good thing...in general.

The canadian system is not perfect either, just a different sent of comprimised and problem. Canadians do pay far more tax than the people in the us. High federal income tax+ high provencial income tax +high sales taxes out weighs what is paid here. This also has caused a bit of a brain drain for canada, notably in the medical field. Everyone gets medical coverage in canada, however it it the goverment that controls the rationing of it and not the consumer.

You also have a massive deficit...
Old but good.

Taxation makes everyone below the ~$75,000 level better off in Canada.

I havent found anything more recent addressing this topic

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Stunt
So conservatives have no reason to criticize the Canadian system...yet tell the people who are trying to construct a economically feasable model to leave the country?

What about this BSE issue?

Do people actually think that paying down the debt over a span of 20+ years is a bad thing?

If you cannot find any reasons in this model to become more conservative...should you not question why conservatism is a good thing...in general.

The canadian system is not perfect either, just a different sent of comprimised and problem. Canadians do pay far more tax than the people in the us. High federal income tax+ high provencial income tax +high sales taxes out weighs what is paid here. This also has caused a bit of a brain drain for canada, notably in the medical field. Everyone gets medical coverage in canada, however it it the goverment that controls the rationing of it and not the consumer.

You also have a massive deficit...
Old but good.

Taxation makes everyone below the ~$75,000 level better off in Canada.

I havent found anything more recent addressing this topic

The ratio of debt to gdp is quite compariable between our two countries. Canada has a lower debt load, but not significant(62% vs about 50%).

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: charrison
The ratio of debt to gdp is quite compariable between our two countries. Canada has a lower debt load, but not significant(62% vs about 50%).

From before:

Finance Department, Government of Canada

As a result of the seven consecutive surpluses, Canada?s federal public debt has been reduced by a total of $61.4 billion from its peak in 1996?97. At the end of 2003?04, it stood at $501.5 billion. As well, the federal debt-to-GDP (gross domestic product) ratio now stands at 41.1 per cent, down sharply from its peak of 68.4 per cent in 1995?96.

I can't find the US's debt to gdp ratio is it just the $7.6trill debt divide $11trillion? = 70%
also, the US is in a massive deficit situation.

50% was a long time ago...
We plan on getting our debt to gdp at ~25% by the year 2010...

I think you need to update your numbers. 30% difference is enormous

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: charrison
The ratio of debt to gdp is quite compariable between our two countries. Canada has a lower debt load, but not significant(62% vs about 50%).

From before:

Finance Department, Government of Canada

As a result of the seven consecutive surpluses, Canada?s federal public debt has been reduced by a total of $61.4 billion from its peak in 1996?97. At the end of 2003?04, it stood at $501.5 billion. As well, the federal debt-to-GDP (gross domestic product) ratio now stands at 41.1 per cent, down sharply from its peak of 68.4 per cent in 1995?96.

I can't find the US's debt to gdp ratio is it just the $7.6trill debt divide $11trillion? = 70%
also, the US is in a massive deficit situation.

50% was a long time ago...
We plan on getting our debt to gdp at ~25% by the year 2010...

I think you need to update your numbers. 30% difference is enormous

50% was just recent for canada....

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: charrison
The ratio of debt to gdp is quite compariable between our two countries. Canada has a lower debt load, but not significant(62% vs about 50%).

From before:

Finance Department, Government of Canada

As a result of the seven consecutive surpluses, Canada?s federal public debt has been reduced by a total of $61.4 billion from its peak in 1996?97. At the end of 2003?04, it stood at $501.5 billion. As well, the federal debt-to-GDP (gross domestic product) ratio now stands at 41.1 per cent, down sharply from its peak of 68.4 per cent in 1995?96.

I can't find the US's debt to gdp ratio is it just the $7.6trill debt divide $11trillion? = 70%
also, the US is in a massive deficit situation.

50% was a long time ago...
We plan on getting our debt to gdp at ~25% by the year 2010...

I think you need to update your numbers. 30% difference is enormous

50% was just recent for canada....

from the same source..


Canada 77% of GDP

US 63% of GDP

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: charrison
The ratio of debt to gdp is quite compariable between our two countries. Canada has a lower debt load, but not significant(62% vs about 50%).

From before:

Finance Department, Government of Canada

As a result of the seven consecutive surpluses, Canada?s federal public debt has been reduced by a total of $61.4 billion from its peak in 1996?97. At the end of 2003?04, it stood at $501.5 billion. As well, the federal debt-to-GDP (gross domestic product) ratio now stands at 41.1 per cent, down sharply from its peak of 68.4 per cent in 1995?96.

I can't find the US's debt to gdp ratio is it just the $7.6trill debt divide $11trillion? = 70%
also, the US is in a massive deficit situation.

50% was a long time ago...
We plan on getting our debt to gdp at ~25% by the year 2010...

I think you need to update your numbers. 30% difference is enormous

50% was just recent for canada....

from the same source..


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica.../factbook/geos/ca.html">Canada 77% of GDP</a>

US 63% of GDP

I'm going to trust the Canadian government on Canadian Data

also...are you saying that american debt is less than 7.6trill or GDP greater than $11trill.

CIA's site is blatently wrong on the Canadian data.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: charrison
The ratio of debt to gdp is quite compariable between our two countries. Canada has a lower debt load, but not significant(62% vs about 50%).

From before:

Finance Department, Government of Canada

As a result of the seven consecutive surpluses, Canada?s federal public debt has been reduced by a total of $61.4 billion from its peak in 1996?97. At the end of 2003?04, it stood at $501.5 billion. As well, the federal debt-to-GDP (gross domestic product) ratio now stands at 41.1 per cent, down sharply from its peak of 68.4 per cent in 1995?96.

I can't find the US's debt to gdp ratio is it just the $7.6trill debt divide $11trillion? = 70%
also, the US is in a massive deficit situation.

50% was a long time ago...
We plan on getting our debt to gdp at ~25% by the year 2010...

I think you need to update your numbers. 30% difference is enormous

50% was just recent for canada....

from the same source..


http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica.../factbook/geos/ca.html">Canada 77% of GDP</a>

US 63% of GDP

I'm going to trust the Canadian government on Canadian Data

also...are you saying that american debt is less than 7.6trill or GDP greater than $11trill.

CIA's site is blatently wrong on the Canadian data.

I going to take a guess here that this is labeled as public debt. THe US govt owes itself 2-3 trillion right now.I assume that is why the numbers are lower.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: charrison
I going to take a guess here that this is labeled as public debt. THe US govt owes itself 2-3 trillion right now.I assume that is why the numbers are lower.

So Canada at debt to gdp of 41% and in a surplus position
And US at a debt to gdp of 63% and a deficit of over $400bill

are similar how?
you have yet to make a point with this data.

 

[Stunt]

Here is a budget project for the US. Seems reasonable...considering that Bush plans only to half the deficit by the end of 4 years.

The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has estimated that debt will climb by $2.3 trillion over the next 10 years, and that making all Mr. Bush's tax cuts permanent would cost an additional $1.9 trillion by the end of 2014. In April, the CBO raised its estimate of the 2004 budget deficit to 477 billion dollars, up from 307 billion dollars a year ago.

So...while Canada will be enroute to a 25% debt to gdp by 2010...at worst 40% (current levels)
The US will have another trillion or more of debt.
That would put it at 72%...

The gap keeps growing.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Stunt
Here is a budget project for the US. Seems reasonable...considering that Bush plans only to half the deficit by the end of 4 years.

The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has estimated that debt will climb by $2.3 trillion over the next 10 years, and that making all Mr. Bush's tax cuts permanent would cost an additional $1.9 trillion by the end of 2014. In April, the CBO raised its estimate of the 2004 budget deficit to 477 billion dollars, up from 307 billion dollars a year ago.

So...while Canada will be enroute to a 25% debt to gdp by 2010...at worst 40% (current levels)
The US will have another trillion or more of debt.
That would put it at 72%...

The gap keeps growing.

another link with canada at 77% of gGDP

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: charrison
I going to take a guess here that this is labeled as public debt. THe US govt owes itself 2-3 trillion right now.I assume that is why the numbers are lower.

So Canada at debt to gdp of 41% and in a surplus position
And US at a debt to gdp of 63% and a deficit of over $400bill

are similar how?
you have yet to make a point with this data.

The point is that we are similiar debt positions.

 

[Stunt]

Statistics Canada (another gov't organization)

Surpluses both achieved and anticipated have allowed the government to direct more money toward paying off the accumulated debt. As a result, the cost of paying interest on the debt has dropped from a high of 33 cents of every dollar of revenue collected by the federal government in 1995/96 to 19 cents in 2001/02. Another promising sign is the decrease in the debt-to-GDP ratio, which gives a picture of the size of a nation's debt in relation to the size of its economy. Though still high by historical and international standards, Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio had fallen from 69% in 1995/1996 to 46% in 2001/02.

APEC

This has also lowered the federal net debt-to-GDP ratio from 67.5 percent in 1995-96 to 44.5 percent in 2002-03. With the commitment to balanced budgets in each of the next two fiscal years, the federal net debt-to-GDP ratio is forecast to decline to about 40 percent in 2004-2005.

Canada's Largest Bank

Finance Minister Goodale tabled a balanced budget, restored economic prudence and contingency reserves in the planning exercise and managed to sneak-in a few surprises. Assuming economic assumptions prove to be accurate ? highly likely given their conservative tilt ?balanced budgets in FY2004/05 and FY2005/06 will leave $3 billion in unused contingency reserves to go towards debt repayment and $1 billion in unused economic prudence. That would lead to a decline in the debt-to-GDP ratio to 37.8% in FY2005/06 from 41.9% in
FY2003/04.

Aussie Gov't

In his 2004 Budget, delivered in March, Finance Minister Ralph Goodale committed to "balanced budgets or better" in each of the next two years and set an objective of reducing Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio to 25 per cent within 10 years (42 per cent in 2003-2004.)

These are the only up to date sources i can find. All Canada's 5 major banks over the last 5 years show Canada's Debt to GDP at or below 50%...it's just old publications with no 2003-2004 etc.
The Canadian government and treasury also show this...

I dunno man...we can argue this all day...but the 40% figure seems to be the one.
How does this relate to the $7.6 trillion dollar debt and $450billion dollar deficit?

do you have a point to make about conservatism being better?...cuz the 'more conservative' entity is not looking fiscally responsible.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: charrison
The point is that we are similiar debt positions.

Not even close...60% and rising of GDP is not equal to 40% and shrinking.

7600 billion is not equal to $510 billion.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Stunt
Statistics Canada (another gov't organization)

Surpluses both achieved and anticipated have allowed the government to direct more money toward paying off the accumulated debt. As a result, the cost of paying interest on the debt has dropped from a high of 33 cents of every dollar of revenue collected by the federal government in 1995/96 to 19 cents in 2001/02. Another promising sign is the decrease in the debt-to-GDP ratio, which gives a picture of the size of a nation's debt in relation to the size of its economy. Though still high by historical and international standards, Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio had fallen from 69% in 1995/1996 to 46% in 2001/02.

APEC

This has also lowered the federal net debt-to-GDP ratio from 67.5 percent in 1995-96 to 44.5 percent in 2002-03. With the commitment to balanced budgets in each of the next two fiscal years, the federal net debt-to-GDP ratio is forecast to decline to about 40 percent in 2004-2005.

Canada's Largest Bank

Finance Minister Goodale tabled a balanced budget, restored economic prudence and contingency reserves in the planning exercise and managed to sneak-in a few surprises. Assuming economic assumptions prove to be accurate ? highly likely given their conservative tilt ?balanced budgets in FY2004/05 and FY2005/06 will leave $3 billion in unused contingency reserves to go towards debt repayment and $1 billion in unused economic prudence. That would lead to a decline in the debt-to-GDP ratio to 37.8% in FY2005/06 from 41.9% in
FY2003/04.

Aussie Gov't

In his 2004 Budget, delivered in March, Finance Minister Ralph Goodale committed to "balanced budgets or better" in each of the next two years and set an objective of reducing Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio to 25 per cent within 10 years (42 per cent in 2003-2004.)

These are the only up to date sources i can find. All Canada's 5 major banks over the last 5 years show Canada's Debt to GDP at or below 50%...it's just old publications with no 2003-2004 etc.
The Canadian government and treasury also show this...

I dunno man...we can argue this all day...but the 40% figure seems to be the one.
How does this relate to the $7.6 trillion dollar debt and $450billion dollar deficit?

do you have a point to make about conservatism being better?...cuz the 'more conservative' entity is not looking fiscally responsible.

Well there appears to be some oddness in canadas numbers. They have had surpluses in the past several years, but yet sources still have their debt to gdp being high? the goverment playing games wiht the numbers, I dont know.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: charrison
Well there appears to be some oddness in canadas numbers. They have had surpluses in the past several years, but yet sources still have their debt to gdp being high? the goverment playing games wiht the numbers, I dont know.

Are you serious?
Debt GDP went from ~70% in 1996 to ~40% in 2004. The surpluses are helping...how fast do you expect to get rid of a $500 billion debt?!

you think once the US gets a surplus the debt to GDP will magically start going down significantly?
wow just wow.

are you even looking at these numbers?
no faulty accounting here. Maybe the hired agency working for the cia made a fvck up.

again you still havent made a point with your now corrected numbers.

 

[IAteYourMother]

So right about now, I'm missing the part where the question is for conservatives and became another typical Stunt-created USA v. Canda/World.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: charrison
Well there appears to be some oddness in canadas numbers. They have had surpluses in the past several years, but yet sources still have their debt to gdp being high? the goverment playing games wiht the numbers, I dont know.

Are you serious?
Debt GDP went from ~70% in 1996 to ~40% in 2004. The surpluses are helping...how fast do you expect to get rid of a $500 billion debt?!

you think once the US gets a surplus the debt to GDP will magically start going down significantly?
wow just wow.

are you even looking at these numbers?
no faulty accounting here. Maybe the hired agency working for the cia made a fvck up.

again you still havent made a point with your now corrected numbers.

I am looking at several credible sources, with different numbers.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: IAteYourMother
So right about now, I'm missing the part where the question is for conservatives and became another typical Stunt-created USA v. Canda/World.

Actually i have merely proposed the case for people to critically analyse.
To reiterate the goal of this thread:

Conservatives tell liberals to go to Canada as they harm the American infrastructure somehow. I'm asking conservatives to help me understand why our system is viewed as inferior (as liberals are asked to live here due to similar values). Basically asking americans what is wrong with our system that should make us become more conservative with policy.

Has absolutely NOTHING to do with the US except that the conservative posters tend on this forum tend to come from there.

Charrison decided to compare first canada's income tax rates to americans...so i responded...

The canadian system is not perfect either, just a different sent of comprimised and problem. Canadians do pay far more tax than the people in the US.

Then he continued to compare the debt to gdp...

The ratio of debt to gdp is quite compariable between our two countries. Canada has a lower debt load, but not significant(62% vs about 50%).

I have not asked you guys to compare this...but it conservatism is the right way to move...why given this example.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: charrison
I am looking at several credible sources, with different numbers.

Credible sources that would use the cia's outsourced obtained numbers?
Or numbers from ANY canadian financial institution?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: charrison
I am looking at several credible sources, with different numbers.

Credible sources that would use the cia's outsourced obtained numbers?
Or numbers from ANY canadian financial institution?

I'm wondering if you are both right, just not comparing the same things. You are correct concerning the Federal Governments Debt/GDP, but the Data provided by Charrison might be including Provincial and Metro Debt as well(aka-all Public Debt), perhaps?

I dunno, but 70% of GDP isn't anything near what the Feds owe at this time.

 

[3chordcharlie]

I'm not certain, but I suspect the disparity in the GDP-debt ratios is the difference between 'federal' and 'public' debt. If you include the aggregate debts of the individual provinces, the jump from 40-70% or whatever isn't that surprising - the point of the surpluses is that the federal GDP-debt ration used to be 70%, and is now much lower. I don't know if the American data is with or without any aggregate State-owed debt, but one way or another, I'm not sure the cited sources are all comparing apples to apples.

A lot of Canada's social services (and the people who need them at any given time) have been through hell while the country got its finances in order. Since so much of the American debt is being racked up in military capital spending at the moment, I *hope* it will be a less painful experience for America when Bush is gone and someone with half a fiscal brain takes over.