A Question for Conservatives

[Stunt]

I've noticed that many conservaties when a poster favours liberalism ie. welfare, public health care, social security, gun control, abortion, death penalty, gay marriage and whatnot they are told to go to Canada as we are apparently more liberal.

Well i want to analyse Canada's current infrastructure and you guys can help me understand why being more liberal is a bad thing...as it has been thrown around as an insult lately, even in the media.

Socially: There is no debate here. Canada is in line with European values here, gay rights, women's rights, etc are upheld. These are very similar to the US mainstream values...minus a large anti-gay marriage movement and less hot button issues such as the death penalty and gun control.

Fiscally:
Budgeting:

The government has balanced its budget for seven straight years, largely through decreases in federal spending. The rate of government debt has shrunk from 64 percent of GDP in 1993 to 40 percent in 2003.link

In reducing the debt by more than $60 billion, the government is spending $3 billion less in interest payments every year.

The accumulated surplus over that time has been more than $60 billion. The actual surpluses for the past seven years have been:

* 2003/04 $9.1B
* 2002/03 $7B
* 2001/02 $8.9B
* 2000/01 $18.1B
* 1999/00 $12.7B
* 1998/99 $3.1B
* 1997/98 $3.8B

When the debt peaked, it was equal to 68.4 per cent of Gross Domestic Product ? or the total of all the goods and services produced by the economy. In the mid-1970s, the debt to GDP ratio was closer to 25 per cent. The government's goal is to get back to that number by 2015.

The debt to GDP ratio as of October 2004 sits at 41.1 per cent.link

Taxation:

Canada?s top income tax rate is 29 percent. Its top corporate tax rate is 22.1 percent

whereas

The United States? top federal income tax rate is 35 percent. The top corporate tax rate is 35 percent.

link

Health Care:
Universal healthcare with 100% of population covered. I'm not going to argue specifics...i mean waiting lines are longer here i assume for those who can get treatment in the states...but death rates kind of counter that arguement . I know the data is from a sketch site...but if ppl want to give new numbers...feel free...they sound about right.

Health Care Expenditures (percent of GDP)
United States 13.4%
Canada 10.0

Infant Mortality Rate (per 1,000 live births):
United States 10.4
Canada 7.9

Death rate of 1-to-4 year olds (per community of 200,000 per year):
United States 101.5
Canada 82.1

Percent of people who believe their health care system needs fundamental change:
United States 60%
Canada 38

link

Other interesting information:
Liberal government has been in power since 1993. They are the centrist party of the major three. Even the conservative party is called the progressive conservative party. Indicating their social liberal colors. The liberals have cut taxes on a couple occasions when the budget allowed for it and cost reductions are done all the time to help make goverment be more efficient (oxymoron?).

On a side note our PM is worth about the same as Bush and Cheney combined. Just for those with the assumption that the rich/business types are always conservative.

Any other things you'd like me to look into i'd be happy to.
I'm trying to figure out why people believe liberals are bad and should come to canada as it is seen as a mindset not worth listening to in the US.

Basically critique this 'liberal' society

Please stick to facts and logical reasoning.
Not intended for a nationalistic debate...just justifications for the differences in our systems.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I think the problem you will find is that American society as a whole has developed independent of its European roots...while the programs and values you mentioned are certainly of benefit to society, most European nations and Canada have not developed the intricate two party bureaucracy that prevents social change in this country.

The reason why the values of liberalism are not compatible with American society is that no one wants to make the short term sacrifices required to provide for the overall benefit of society...liberalism requires a certain short term selfless sacrifice that most Americans are not willing to accept. And conservatives are not the only ones who are selfish in this regard...liberals are equally guilty of selfishly preventing the kinds of social change consistent with their ideology.

I will give you a perfect example...I grew up in a politically mixed middle class neighborhood in the suburbs of NY...the county I lived in decided to construct a welfare home for drug addicted single mothers...the original plan was for this facility to occupy an unused elementary school in close proximity to an affluent community, one that is a noteable Democrat stronghold (not far from where Hillary now maintains an address I might add)...well this affluent community fought tooth and nail to prevent the establishment of this community, and they ended up building it in my neighborhood...mostly because our community did not have the political connections or resources to fight it...of course our property values went down slightly because of it, and it introduced a drug and crime element into our schools once the children of these mothers grew up.

George Carlin has a great skit about liberalism...its called "not in my back yard."

 

[ntdz]

Canada doesn't have a space program, a military, etc...

Edit: Oh, and you're wrong about Canada having less debt per GDP than the USA.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica...ankorder/2186rank.html

Canada: #23 with 77%
USA: #39 with 62.4%
Oh, and France and Germany top the United States as well. Japan is #3.

 

[alchemize]

You can't compare the populations of the USA to Canada. Canada is like the USA, but without the problems the US has with a large population of minorities who haven't had the success whites have.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: ntdz
Canada doesn't have a space program, a military, etc...

Edit: Oh, and you're wrong about Canada having less debt per GDP than the USA.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica...ankorder/2186rank.html

Canada: #23 with 77%
USA: #39 with 62.4%
Oh, and France and Germany top the United States as well. Japan is #3.

That debt to GDP ratio is wrong.
I can find endless sources indicating our 40% debt to gdp ratio...by major banks, the canadian government themselves...etc

We do have a space program:
CSA
Nowhere near the level of nasa...but we contribute to missions, have several astronauts who travel with nasa, build some of nasa's equipment and contribute to projects like the ISS and Mars rover mission.

We also have a military. But it is not near as robust as other first world nations with more money. But we have an effective peacekeeping force and have specific equipment where the US and Canada have worked together effectively. There were actually a couple spy and radar planes in iraq before the war. They were feeding information to the US. These planes were pulled out for political reasons.
Also JTF2 is a highly respected force similar to your special forces.

The military is not a large force but small and effective in certain areas.
To have a large military is pointless..we just dont have the funding.
a 2% gdp military is just as useless as a 50% gdp force.

Besides we spend far more money on intelligence...we don't go to war alone, we contribute with allies. You dont need an army if you dont go to war. If a world war broke out, we'd surely have a powerful force...reference WW2.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can't compare the populations of the USA to Canada. Canada is like the USA, but without the problems the US has with a large population of minorities who haven't had the success whites have.

You think the US's problems came out of nowhere joker? Canada has a large growing non-white population too. The US could adopt Canadian policies, but people like you don't want to. Don't blame you not wanting to on the large population of minorities. :roll:

 

[Stunt]

Finance Department, Government of Canada

As a result of the seven consecutive surpluses, Canada?s federal public debt has been reduced by a total of $61.4 billion from its peak in 1996?97. At the end of 2003?04, it stood at $501.5 billion. As well, the federal debt-to-GDP (gross domestic product) ratio now stands at 41.1 per cent, down sharply from its peak of 68.4 per cent in 1995?96.

 

[ntdz]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: ntdz
Canada doesn't have a space program, a military, etc...

Edit: Oh, and you're wrong about Canada having less debt per GDP than the USA.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publica...ankorder/2186rank.html

Canada: #23 with 77%
USA: #39 with 62.4%
Oh, and France and Germany top the United States as well. Japan is #3.

That debt to GDP ratio is wrong.
I can find endless sources indicating our 40% debt to gdp ratio...by major banks, the canadian government themselves...etc

We do have a space program:
CSA
Nowhere near the level of nasa...but we contribute to missions, have several astronauts who travel with nasa, build some of nasa's equipment and contribute to projects like the ISS and Mars rover mission.

We also have a military. But it is not near as robust as other first world nations with more money. But we have an effective peacekeeping force and have specific equipment where the US and Canada have worked together effectively. There were actually a couple spy and radar planes in iraq before the war. They were feeding information to the US. These planes were pulled out for political reasons.
Also JTF2 is a highly respected force similar to your special forces.

The military is not a large force but small and effective in certain areas.
To have a large military is pointless..we just dont have the funding.
a 2% gdp military is just as useless as a 50% gdp force.

Besides we spend far more money on intelligence...we don't go to war alone, we contribute with allies. You dont need an army if you dont go to war. If a world war broke out, we'd surely have a powerful force...reference WW2.

You're right, Canada really doesn't need a military. You are a relatively small country with no threats. The United States, on the otherhand has threats all over the place. The entire Middle East, China, Russia during the Cold War etc, so we need our large military. You also have the USA to fall back on, you know we'd never let anything happen to ya, no matter how much you love to hate us

For some of your stats, I'm getting different information from the CIA factbook. For example:

Infant Mortality Rate:
Canada: 4.82 deaths/1,000 live births
United States: 6.63 deaths/1,000 live births

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: ntdz
For some of your stats, I'm getting different information from the CIA factbook. For example:

Infant Mortality Rate:
Canada: 4.82 deaths/1,000 live births
United States: 6.63 deaths/1,000 live births

I dont hate the US at all. I think we are great allies and benifit greatly form each other's existance
We export $311bil and import $303bil of goods and services. We are definately a contributer and client of your goods and services. I think it has worked well. We have very similar interests and make for a great continent to be a part of.

I have no idea which value is accurate. The site i had was kind of sketch.
One thing is for sure and that is the infant mortality is lower in canada (im assuming this is because of the coverage of the whole population and not the quality of your doctors) and the debt to gdp is definately 40%.

Thanks for pointing them out.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can't compare the populations of the USA to Canada. Canada is like the USA, but without the problems the US has with a large population of minorities who haven't had the success whites have.

You think the US's problems came out of nowhere joker? Canada has a large growing non-white population too. The US could adopt Canadian policies, but people like you don't want to. Don't blame you not wanting to on the large population of minorities. :roll:

I expect that the larger Canada's underclass becomes, the more like Europe it will become. The problem is no longer racism, but the minorities refusing to integrate with the larger society as a whole. White people have to take some of the blame for that.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: alchemize
I expect that the larger Canada's underclass becomes, the more like Europe it will become. The problem is no longer racism, but the minorities refusing to integrate with the larger society as a whole. White people have to take some of the blame for that.

Do you think that if we didn't have minorities more liberal agendas could be successfully enacted here?

 

[Ozoned]

"Socially: There is no debate here. Canada is in line with European values"



I agree.

There is no accountability in the Canadian social model.



BSE anyone?

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
There is no accountability in the Canadian social model.

Please explain how this is so.

BSE anyone?

Cookie anyone? What the hell does BSE have to do with the Canadian social model?

 

[glenn1]

Explain how liberalism is bad given this example

Cherry-pick all the examples you want, one can just as easily counter with areas in which the situation is reversed. But don't kid yourself into thinking that liberalism is inherently superior to conservatism, since they emphasize different values. For example, I find daft you consider your universal healthcare system as a positive thing, I consider it to be an exceptional negative. You see us a country of frontier mentality narcissists with oversized senses of self-importance, I see you as an insipid bunch of socially conformist drones. The iconic American image is the Wild West; Jesse James, Wyatt Earp, Wild Bill Hickok, etc. Canada's is what, an anonymous RCMP in his scarlet jacket, or probably more accurately a non-person like a moose or beaver? That's how it goes. Different values. Live yours and be happy, and let us pursue ours.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: alchemize
I expect that the larger Canada's underclass becomes, the more like Europe it will become. The problem is no longer racism, but the minorities refusing to integrate with the larger society as a whole. White people have to take some of the blame for that.

Do you think that if we didn't have minorities more liberal agendas could be successfully enacted here?

I never said that, I said you can't compare the two populations. I'm questioning his data before he even starts to draw conclusions from it.

For example, crime is higher in minority populations, as is a higher child mortality rate.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can't compare the populations of the USA to Canada. Canada is like the USA, but without the problems the US has with a large population of minorities who haven't had the success whites have.

Minorities in Canada
From 2001:
4 out of 29.6mill = 14% minorities

Minorities in US
From 2001:
at the time: 285mil US pop. 199.3 whites = 70% whites or 30% minorities

I disagree this is a cause for increased conservatism in the US.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can't compare the populations of the USA to Canada. Canada is like the USA, but without the problems the US has with a large population of minorities who haven't had the success whites have.

Minorities in Canada
From 2001:
4 out of 29.6mill = 14% minorities

Minorities in US
From 2001:
at the time: 285mil US pop. 199.3 whites = 70% whites or 30% minorities

What's interesting about this is that I would guess the US minority % has been rising and used to be nearer to Canada's minority %. Yet in the past the US still had the same problems.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: Ozoned
BSE anyone?

You do realize that more % cows in canada are tested than in the US?

Testing procedures in the US are horrendous. European countries ie. france and UK test every cow.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: alchemize
You can't compare the populations of the USA to Canada. Canada is like the USA, but without the problems the US has with a large population of minorities who haven't had the success whites have.

Minorities in Canada
From 2001:
4 out of 29.6mill = 14% minorities

Minorities in US
From 2001:
at the time: 285mil US pop. 199.3 whites = 70% whites or 30% minorities

I disagree this is a cause for increased conservatism in the US.

Once again, I never said it was the case. I'm talking about your comparison data.

 

[Infohawk]

Alchemize, do you think Canada and the US can be compared at all or should we never try to learn from any comparison between the two? Even if on a national level Canada and the US are different, it would seem like certain regions of the US share a lot with Canada (wisconsin?) demographically. You seem to be refusing to play ball just on the principal that Canada is not an exact clone of the US.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: glenn1
I find daft you consider your universal healthcare system as a positive thing, I consider it to be an exceptional negative.

I think both systems suck balls

I'm a big fan of two tier.
allow the rich to pay additional fees for additional services. As long as they pay into the system, all is good.

This is similar to sending your kids to a private school. Taxes still go to the gov't here but you pay for a premium service and perhaps a line bypass.

Originally posted by: glenn1
Live yours and be happy, and let us pursue ours.

Our economies are heavily integrated. A fiscally irresponsible government in the US negatively impacts you and us. It is true that we have our own issues...but help me understand how conservatism is helping the US given the fact that more liberal nations are able to progress fine.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: Ozoned
There is no accountability in the Canadian social model.

Please explain how this is so.

BSE anyone?

Cookie anyone? What the hell does BSE have to do with the Canadian social model?

[*]Stunts premise is that the Canadian Social model is not inferior to that of the Us.

[*] Stunt said that there was no debate.

[*] I entered a contension to prove that there was in-fact debate to be had.

Are you really that daft, or is it just an act?

 

[alchemize]

I'm likely moving into the healthcare insurance industry very soon I'll be an expert in 6 months and get back to you...

 

[Vic]

(Because you asked), such large reductions in your government debt and deficit indicate that Canadian taxpayers are being overtaxed and underserved by their government.
It was not fair of you to only count federal income tax levels between the 2 countries without noting that Canada also has a national sales tax (GST) and VAT, both of which are regressive taxes and can be considerable.
Comparing the healthcare statistics was not fair either as Canada does not have certain social and ethnic problems that the US does, nor does Canada allow the type of nearly unchecked immigration that the US does (which means we get a lot more adults who immigrate from poorer countries with inadequate healthcare). The dietary habits of large numbers of Americans, combined with the rampant hypochondria and pill-abusing, don't help either.

Sorry, but I can just walk down a single street in downtown Vancouver and feel the higher tax burden. If only because everywhere you look are instructions from merchants as to how one can evade those taxes.

 

[mjrcaliber]

Why would the Worlds only Superpower want to emulate a weak little country like Canada?