Originally posted by: jjones
It's not a mortal sin. You'll burn, just not eternally.
Sweet. That's exactly what I'm looking for.
Sweet. That's exactly what I'm looking for.
Every human will be sinful to some degree to their last breath, if you were in a confessional 24/7 you couldn't keep up.
Geekbabe
Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
You could decide,after a lot of careful thought,that you had no more choice over your sexual orientation than you did over what color your eyes are.You could also maybe decide,that if there is a creator,that he/she cares more about the things you do,how you treat those around you..
Remember, we supposedly we were all formed as images of the creator,if this is true,repenting for the way you were made would be like an affront to the deity would it not?
Cogman
Lifer
- Sep 19, 2000
- 10,286
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I understand that, but ultimately if you want to know what level or degree you will be punished (if at all) then you should talk to your local pastor (ministor, bishop, ect) about it. I believe (but am not certain) that homosexuality is one of the bigger sins in catholisim.
DangerAardvark
Diamond Member
- Oct 22, 2004
- 7,559
- 0
- 0
Just find a sufficiently liberal Catholic theologian. Theology is the Cirque Du Soleil of mental/semantic acrobatics. Those guys can justify anything based on scripture.
Geekbabe
Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
People fear what they cannot understand.As far as hell goes, I'd bet you've suffered aplenty over the years already,why would you deserve more based solely on your sexual orientation?
IMHO,worry more about being the very finest,most compassionate human being that you can be,if there is a God,I'm thinking he/she cares more about what's in your heart than anything else.
Well homosexuality isn't included in the original 7 deadly sins, or even the new 7 deadly sins.
Why is it always treated as OMGWTF level sin when nothing in scripture supports that.
Even leviticus puts homosexuality right next to shaving beards, sex on periods, and planting two crops in the same field.
If shaving doesn't equal damnation, WHY does homosexuality?
Why is it always treated as OMGWTF level sin when nothing in scripture supports that.
Even leviticus puts homosexuality right next to shaving beards, sex on periods, and planting two crops in the same field.
If shaving doesn't equal damnation, WHY does homosexuality?
- Oct 9, 1999
- 46,874
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You're conflating limbo and purgatory. Purgatory is and has been part of official church doctrine.
Limbo != purgatory. Limbo has never been officially recognized as doctrine by the church, although it was taught as absolute gospel in my boyhood catholic school experience.
The concept of limbo has more and more fallen in to it's own . . . limbo.
IronWing
No Lifer
- Jul 20, 2001
- 72,905
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Here's the deal on homosexuality from the Catholic perspective...become a priest.
Ok, here's the real deal. Humans are, due to original sin, the fall, and all that crap, imperfect. Homosexuality is just another of those imperfections. No big deal... as long as you remain celibate and don't act upon your imperfect urges. That's the straight scoop. Keep your hands outside the covers and you remain in communion with Ma Church. Act like an Idaho senator and it's off to confession for you bud. Keep in mind that confession only works if you're really sorry though. No contrition, no forgiveness, and you get put on call waiting for eleventy billion years before the pearly gates open. I'll scrounge around and see how many years in the dugout you're looking at for each dirty deed.
Ok, here's the real deal. Humans are, due to original sin, the fall, and all that crap, imperfect. Homosexuality is just another of those imperfections. No big deal... as long as you remain celibate and don't act upon your imperfect urges. That's the straight scoop. Keep your hands outside the covers and you remain in communion with Ma Church. Act like an Idaho senator and it's off to confession for you bud. Keep in mind that confession only works if you're really sorry though. No contrition, no forgiveness, and you get put on call waiting for eleventy billion years before the pearly gates open. I'll scrounge around and see how many years in the dugout you're looking at for each dirty deed.
NikolaeVarius
Lifer
- Oct 25, 2006
- 11,036
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Because its Religion. Religion tries to weed out people who are not the same as the masses. Gays are one of those things that are targeted, mostly because people are uncomfortable with gays, and or feel its morally wrong, even though morality IS subjective.
Even so, there are alot of things that are said in the bible. People who work on Sundays should be stoned, don't be Gay etc etc.
Not to be insensitive or anything, but truthfully, if God IS real, (I think he isn't. atheist here), the bible says the idea of "being" gay is bad. I don't know why. It just is. If he did create all human beings, it doesn't make logical sense as to why he would have created Gay people.
But I think, in my own interpretation of the bible, you have to become straight in every sense of the word in order to not get sent to purgatory according to the bible.
onlyCOpunk
Platinum Member
- May 25, 2003
- 2,532
- 1
- 0
You switch to become a Lutheran. A sin is a sin, there may seem like some sins are worse then others, but they aren't. In the eyes of god using his name in vein is the same as pushing over an old lady.
And in any case it's not like the Bible has a list of sins. It's all just mythology left up to interpretation. So while some say the Bible says being gay is a sin, that's only their interpretation of a book that is over 2000 years old, originally written Hebrew I believe and horribly translated 100 times over into English. So each publisher has a different version that all vary depending on the publishers belief. One publisher might flat out say "butt sex will send you to hell" while another might just say "and Jesus saw two men holding hands."
There are also churches out there that accept the homosexual lifestyle. I forget what denomination, but across the street from my undergrad Uni there was a church with a big rainbow flag outfront saying "All Welcome." Basically if you're looking for a church you need to find one that makes you feel good about yourself, not one that's going to make you worry about whether you are getting into heaven or not. Scaretactics are best left to the Catholic church.
And in any case it's not like the Bible has a list of sins. It's all just mythology left up to interpretation. So while some say the Bible says being gay is a sin, that's only their interpretation of a book that is over 2000 years old, originally written Hebrew I believe and horribly translated 100 times over into English. So each publisher has a different version that all vary depending on the publishers belief. One publisher might flat out say "butt sex will send you to hell" while another might just say "and Jesus saw two men holding hands."
There are also churches out there that accept the homosexual lifestyle. I forget what denomination, but across the street from my undergrad Uni there was a church with a big rainbow flag outfront saying "All Welcome." Basically if you're looking for a church you need to find one that makes you feel good about yourself, not one that's going to make you worry about whether you are getting into heaven or not. Scaretactics are best left to the Catholic church.
i chuckled
thats got to be the least inflammatory post ive seen from you, regarding religion...and i think its pretty well said.
OP: try a moderately in-depth study of your religion and its history, and perhaps that of others as well, and see where your studies lead your beliefs. you clearly have questions about it, and youre *not* going to get all the right answers by asking other people, you need to do the thinking for yourself.
Originally posted by: Perknose
I left the Catholic church at age 12, decades ago. What I remember is that sins were classified either venal or mortal, mortal being worse than venal.
If you died with unconfessed venal sins on your soul, you went to purgatory, which was a temporary way station on your way to heaven. There, you burned them off.
But if you died with Mortal sins on your soul, you got a one-way ticket to Hell.
An example of a venal sin would be taking the Lord's name in vain (cursing). Murder would be an example of a Mortal sin.
As a 12 year old, I don't remember our catechism classifying, or even mentioning, gay sex, so I don't know what the formal Catholic stance on "Paul doing Peters" is.
About the same story for me; I left in 7th grade. So I was.... 11? 12? I don't know. But that's how I learned it also.
Does the fact that a new dude in office abolishing century old concepts bother anyone else? I am no longer a Catholic, but the fact such "policy" changes can be made willy-nilly is disturbing.
If it's a "sin" now, just wait 20 years for the current pope to croak and maybe the new guy will change it.
Let me introduce myself. I am a fairly liberal Christian, a scientist, and someone who has been going through a faith crisis for the past couple of months now. Here are presented my thoughts, which are worth exactly the price that you paid for them. I hope they do you some good.
The idea with religion is to honestly and legitimately seek the truth. Don't get too hung up on the labels. Man looks at the outside--what you say and what you do, while God looks at the heart--your motivations, thoughts, and desires. As such, I believe that much grace is given for those who actually try and grow and think, rather than those who just find a label that works for them and sit back and assume that this will carry them. Who came out more justified in the Bible, the Pharisees who followed the rules perfectly, or the sinners and prostitutes who were still sinning but legitimately seeking truth? I believe that a lot of people whom we do not think of as righteous will end up more justified in the end than the people who have learned to talk the talk and walk the walk, but whose faith has become stagnant and worthless. This concept shocked the people of Jesus' time, and it continues to shock the Pharisees of today.
I've struggled with my own faith many a time, and I've come to believe that we'll never get it just right--there will always be a few screwed up beliefs in our system that we need to work on. However, the important thing is to keep working. Ultimately religion is a personal thing, and everyone's faith is somewhat different. However, we use the people around us to keep from falling off the deep end, and to help us work through our own struggles. I do believe that there is a single ultimate Truth which should be our common goal, however, I recognize that none of us will ever be able to capture it perfectly, and that is what makes religious beliefs vary from person to person. (In other words, I don't believe that "what's true for you is true for you and what's true for me is true for me", however, I think that our way of absorbing the truth into a format which our limited human minds can understand--and indubitably distorting it somewhat in the process--varies from person to person, and someone who differs may not be "wrong" so much as seeing the same truth from a different angle. However, some people actually are straight-up wrong.)
How this affects your case: you have to deal with the added cultural aversion to homosexuality, which is irrationally strong in this country. Quite frankly, what should be more important to you than finding a church which accepts or rejects your lifestyle is finding one which treats you as a human being one way or the other, and is very willing to frankly and kindly discuss and/or debate these things. In fact, you may even learn a lot from talking to some people who disagree with you, and you may find answers to your own questions from hearing someone else's viewpoint (even if it's only to think "that is wrong, I now know that my belief is the opposite").
I truly don't know what my thoughts on homosexuality are, but I do know that if it is a sin, like most individual bodily sins it is almost insignificant compared to sins of the spirit (pride, spite, jealousy, or other such things which so thorougly cripple us as people) or sins against others. I also believe that a just and kind God will not punish someone for things which are completely out of their control. I really don't know your circumstances and your feelings; I simply can't determine from my perspective whether this is something innately bound to you or whether it's a surmountable struggle, like a tendency to fly off the handle or have low self-esteem. You will have to work through this yourself. But don't waste time beating yourself up or trying to force a cherry-picked bit of fluff onto a resisting mind...answer the questions honestly. It's a lot harder, it takes a lot longer, and it is much more uncertain, but I do not believe that you will get anywhere by simply picking a dogma and sticking to it without thought.
If this is at all helpful, feel free to PM me.
I would also ask that the polemic atheists or hard-line conservatives not waste anyone's time with smarmy jabs at what I just posted. Again, if something strikes you very strongly and you feel that you need clarification, or just to tell me that I'm wrong...take it to PM. This thread is not the correct avenue.
TehMac
Diamond Member
- Aug 18, 2006
- 9,976
- 3
- 71
Uhh...Lutheranism?
I don't think you'll go to hell, we all make mistakes/are born perverted in some way, or whatever.
I just wonder if this lifestyle you have was half environmental, half genetic. It's somewhat of an awkward topic I suppose, because, frankly, no one can provide an answer anyone else will be satisfied with.
Leviticus is part of the Jewish Torah, which deals with an Angry God, and not the benevolent one Christians (I would not call Westboro peeps 'Christians') later associate with.
So in short, I can't tell you, you make up your own mind what lifetsyle you want. I'm not fully convinced either way.
Scripture suggests that the only way to go to hell guaranteed is to utterly and ultimately reject God.
In this sense, homosexuality is almost minor. I would consider it a sin, but I would consider fornication a sin.
But the whole point is that no matter what you do, you'll be sinning anyway, so who am I to judge others, when I sin myself?
Jesus' message has been so twisted over time that I can't see why anyone would believe any of it.
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