Suspicious-Teach8788
Lifer
But the spirit behind the laws of physics is simply... determinism..
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A question for atheists/etc
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But the spirit behind the laws of physics is simply... determinism..
So you hae developed a relationship with the big J? When was the last time he sat down on your couch and watched a ballgame with you? Does he call you a lot to chat about things?
Thought so.......you have developed a relationship in YOUR MIND. If it works for you that is great but not why do you have to keep tryng to justify and reinforce your beliefs by asking others about it? What you believe has NO bearing on what I believe and I simply don't care what you think of me or my beliefs......maybe you should get to that point in your relationship with Jesus.
Thought so.......you have developed a relationship in YOUR MIND. If it works for you that is great but not why do you have to keep tryng to justify and reinforce your beliefs by asking others about it? What you believe has NO bearing on what I believe and I simply don't care what you think of me or my beliefs......maybe you should get to that point in your relationship with Jesus.
Powermoloch
Lifer
I concur
Ah what the hell...
Jesus was a man, like every other man. He is no more the son of god than any other organism that has existed. He was not white. He was not black. He was middle eastern. He was also a jew. Millions of years ago (not 4000), his ancestors were primates, and billions before that, his ancestors were microbes, and billions for that, all matter in *our* universe was condensed to a point, and the concept of time was completely invalid.
Jesus was a good man, and his teachings, if actually followed, would give us a very peaceful and harmonious society, one that I wouldn't mind living in. He wasn't the first good man to come up with these or similar ideas, and he wasn't the last.
If Jesus Christ didnt convince the western world that he was the son of god, someone else would have before long. David Korresh was a little late to the party, but if he was born a couple of years before JC, in the right place, at the right time, we might be asking WWDKD?
But as absurd as all of that is, there is no way to prove, or unprove the existence of a god as conceived by our society. Science certainly can't come close to that, since science doesn't *prove* anything. It goes a long way to further our understanding, and its equally absurd to place scientific knowledge on the same plane as " just another religion", because it is far more than that.
In my opinion, believing that a deity exists and jesus is his son, immaculately conceived, and god is watching over our every move, and cares whether or not you curse, smack your little brother around, marry another guy, or kill someone, is as absolutely asburd and infantile as thinking god or some sort of supernatural concept doesn't exist because there is no proof for or against it's existence.
There is no way to know the answers. It's hard enough to know the questions. It's self evident that there is a little something more than just blind determinism going on here - "I think, therefore I am" is not just a cute statement. Making up fairy tales is just delusion, and I don't think that helps anyone in the end, although ignorance certainly is bliss.
Denial, delusion or deferment seems to be the only options anyone can see, although I, like everyone else, think I've got it figured out, or at the very least, figure what I can, and accept the fact that some valid questions will never be answered, and not every question that can be asked has an answer.
Jesus was a man, like every other man. He is no more the son of god than any other organism that has existed. He was not white. He was not black. He was middle eastern. He was also a jew. Millions of years ago (not 4000), his ancestors were primates, and billions before that, his ancestors were microbes, and billions for that, all matter in *our* universe was condensed to a point, and the concept of time was completely invalid.
Jesus was a good man, and his teachings, if actually followed, would give us a very peaceful and harmonious society, one that I wouldn't mind living in. He wasn't the first good man to come up with these or similar ideas, and he wasn't the last.
If Jesus Christ didnt convince the western world that he was the son of god, someone else would have before long. David Korresh was a little late to the party, but if he was born a couple of years before JC, in the right place, at the right time, we might be asking WWDKD?
But as absurd as all of that is, there is no way to prove, or unprove the existence of a god as conceived by our society. Science certainly can't come close to that, since science doesn't *prove* anything. It goes a long way to further our understanding, and its equally absurd to place scientific knowledge on the same plane as " just another religion", because it is far more than that.
In my opinion, believing that a deity exists and jesus is his son, immaculately conceived, and god is watching over our every move, and cares whether or not you curse, smack your little brother around, marry another guy, or kill someone, is as absolutely asburd and infantile as thinking god or some sort of supernatural concept doesn't exist because there is no proof for or against it's existence.
There is no way to know the answers. It's hard enough to know the questions. It's self evident that there is a little something more than just blind determinism going on here - "I think, therefore I am" is not just a cute statement. Making up fairy tales is just delusion, and I don't think that helps anyone in the end, although ignorance certainly is bliss.
Denial, delusion or deferment seems to be the only options anyone can see, although I, like everyone else, think I've got it figured out, or at the very least, figure what I can, and accept the fact that some valid questions will never be answered, and not every question that can be asked has an answer.
LtPage1
Diamond Member
I have no reason to.
Also, I find it absurdly arrogant to assume that humanity is the only thing, in all of existence, that matters. To believe that we are made in god's own image just seems absolutely ridiculous to me.
Even if I woke up tomorrow with this gaping emptiness needing to be filled with religion, there is absolutely no way I could accept all of the farfetched silliness inherent in Christianity. This is not to say that I can't understand why others are religious, or Christian- but it would be impossible for me to truly convert.
Also, I find it absurdly arrogant to assume that humanity is the only thing, in all of existence, that matters. To believe that we are made in god's own image just seems absolutely ridiculous to me.
Even if I woke up tomorrow with this gaping emptiness needing to be filled with religion, there is absolutely no way I could accept all of the farfetched silliness inherent in Christianity. This is not to say that I can't understand why others are religious, or Christian- but it would be impossible for me to truly convert.
alejandroAT
Senior member
--------------------------
You are putting forward the most ridiculus of all arguments that god exists. You say that you will only see God if you open your eyes...There are many things you can see if you want to see them...that doesnt make them true, and it certainly doesnt give them divine powers of intervention.
And when you say that you worship the force that gave life to the universe i really dont understand why you call it God or why you associate it with religion. The sun gives life to everything on the earth, (carbon as well). So why not worship a piece of cole or indeed the sun like the ancients used to? Where exactly did this association between the religious concept of God and the beggining of life occure? i 'll tell you where....in your religious environment or your church....There is absolutely no reason why you should beleive in God as such. It is a concept based on the ravings of desperate people or madmen or powerhungry rulers. The life giving force could well exist but do you really think it is aware of us? or that it gave Moses a set of Rules? or that it is judging us?
A star can die and kill whole planetary systems. Indeed kill all life!! but the matter that scaters around will gather again, form planets, and the chemicals will start forming organisms. So is the nova an evil killer or a benevolent life giver? Good and Evil are concepts created by man. They have no place in the natural setup.
And how can your God be good when he/she/neutral created the Devil to justify his existance?
engineereeyore
Platinum Member
Oh I agree 100%. I see nothing wrong with questioning the belief in God. Heck, I've done it for most of my life. But by the same merit, why is it wrong to question the validity of science? I love science, I use it every day of my life in my work. There are certain things that I count on being true in order for my work to succeed. The arrogance behind it is to believe that what science believes to be true today will never change and to believe that what we know now is sufficient to be able to make such a claim. There is absolutely far to much we still don't know for sure in order to be able to completely rule out the possiblility that our methods may be inaccurate or simply wrong.
For example, just consider the time when the Earth was considered the center of the universe. Where they right? No. But can you blame them for coming to such a conclusion? Their knowledge and understanding of the universe was very limited. Just because we know so much more today then they did, what makes you think our knowledge and understand is so unlimited as to be able to say with any measure that what we currently accept as law or as truth can never be proven wrong?
That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to convince you to believe in God or anything of the sort. I'm simply trying to show you that there is a reason people believe in God and they're not ignorant for doing so. Science is not currently in possession of enough understanding to be able to fully deny the existence of a God, so why ridicule though who still believe in him?
engineereeyore
Platinum Member
Opening you're eyes is a metaphor, not to be taken literally. Perhaps better stated as "eyes of understanding".
What I stated very plainly was not that people must accept God as the creator of the universe, but simply that he is a possibility. Whether a person decides to accept God as the one responsible for putting the universe into its current state or not is up to them. However, what I did state was that there seem to be two options. Either the energy and particles that currently make up the universe were just spontaneously generated out of nothing, or God created them. Take your pick. Each one has their logical improbability, but both are valid arguments based upon our current understanding. And no one is currently in possession of enough knowledge to prove the other wrong, so why bother trying, and why ridicule the other for his set of beliefs?
Sounds like the same example as fire. What happens when a patch of land catches fire? It destroys everything there, but brings with it new life. I would not hesitate to call either a benevolent life giver. Only someone with no concept of an afterlife would call them an evil killer, perhaps a concept created by such a man??
Good cannot exist without evil. Is simply doesn't work. He created the person and the person made himself into the devil. Those where his actions, not God's, so I fail to see the problem.
alejandroAT
Senior member
quote: "
What I stated very plainly was not that people must accept God as the creator of the universe, but simply that he is a possibility. Whether a person decides to accept God as the one responsible for putting the universe into its current state or not is up to them."
Again you are talking about the lifegiving force/action as if it were a concious person. I really fail to understand why you do that. We are not two camps that seek answers. All people who dont believe in god are the ones still looking for answers. All people who believe in God claim to have the answers and look no further. If they do then they are heretics. I dont know which sept of Christianity you belong to but all septs believe that the answers are slightly different. But they have a thing in common. They belive they HAVE the answers, whatever these may be. This is what defines religion. A set of answers. Why do we exist? because God wanted us to exist. What is the point of doing good? because God told you to. If these are not answers then i dont know what is.
I have studied religion and i have read both the Bible and the Coran out of curiosity. The answers are clearly written in both books. Anyone who claims to be religious and still claim that they are looking for answers are deeply confused!!!!
quote
"God cannot exist without evil. Is simply doesn't work. He created the person and the person made himself into the devil. Those where his actions, not God's, so I fail to see the problem. "
No he didn't. What would be the point of God if there was no devil? this is why God as religion describes him is the invention of man. Because it is a being that requires to be defined by its opposite. This is human logic. Human logic only exists in human brains.
What I stated very plainly was not that people must accept God as the creator of the universe, but simply that he is a possibility. Whether a person decides to accept God as the one responsible for putting the universe into its current state or not is up to them."
Again you are talking about the lifegiving force/action as if it were a concious person. I really fail to understand why you do that. We are not two camps that seek answers. All people who dont believe in god are the ones still looking for answers. All people who believe in God claim to have the answers and look no further. If they do then they are heretics. I dont know which sept of Christianity you belong to but all septs believe that the answers are slightly different. But they have a thing in common. They belive they HAVE the answers, whatever these may be. This is what defines religion. A set of answers. Why do we exist? because God wanted us to exist. What is the point of doing good? because God told you to. If these are not answers then i dont know what is.
I have studied religion and i have read both the Bible and the Coran out of curiosity. The answers are clearly written in both books. Anyone who claims to be religious and still claim that they are looking for answers are deeply confused!!!!
quote
"God cannot exist without evil. Is simply doesn't work. He created the person and the person made himself into the devil. Those where his actions, not God's, so I fail to see the problem. "
No he didn't. What would be the point of God if there was no devil? this is why God as religion describes him is the invention of man. Because it is a being that requires to be defined by its opposite. This is human logic. Human logic only exists in human brains.
thecrecarc
Diamond Member
the thread is still going on? damn
engineereeyore
Platinum Member
Religion may claim to have some answers, but any religion that claims to have them all is in need of repentance. Even religion can only go so far. Consider my previous post. Do you know of any religion who can tell you where God came from? No. The best almost any religion can do is say that he always existed. Not much of an answer. We are in fact very much two camps seeking answers. Science is very much in the pursuit of continual knowledge, as is religion. Any religion that is not continually attempting to gain a greater understand of God is missing out on a great and wonderful amount of knowledge. God never told anyone not to ask him questions, but rather to ask anytime they don't understand. So why would you conclude that all religions claim to have all the answers when that is in no way, shape, or form, the case?
They why does God tell us so plainly to that if any man lack wisdom, let him ask of God? (James 1:5) Much of the Bible is given to us as a result of questions. Why do people continue to read the Bible and Quoran over and over again if they don't have questions? Looking for answers or having questions is not a sign of confusion.
Of course he did. Claiming that good cannot exist without evil has no bearing on the existence of God, only on the existence of good and evil. You should understand that since you believe that good and evil are man-made creations. Think of the time prior to this "conception" of man when you believe good and evil didn't exist. Is it not possible that such a time existed prior to the devil going astray? Is it not possible that when he did what he did that good and evil came into existence. The Bible is very plain on this subject, and if you are as well read in the Bible and Quoran as you claim, you will know this as well.
I personally subscribe to philosophy, not religion; if worthwhile philosophy comes from Jesus or Emo I'll consider it. There's worthwhile philosophy in the foundation of all religions, including the oft-misunderstood Jihad facet of Islam. Whether Jesus existed or not and whether the various Biblical doctrines have any position in reality is immaterial; the basic tenets expressed by the man and his disciples constitutes a worthwhile body of philosophy that should be considered.
tfcmasta97
Platinum Member
since when is it logical to think otherwise?
please explain your view, and 'there has to be something more' isnt in any way a logical arguement.
alejandroAT
Senior member
quote :"Religion may claim to have some answers, but any religion that claims to have them all is in need of repentance. Even religion can only go so far. Consider my previous post. Do you know of any religion who can tell you where God came from? No. The best almost any religion can do is say that he always existed. Not much of an answer. We are in fact very much two camps seeking answers"
it seems to me that you are one of the confused. If you are asking where God came from then you are suggesting that someone created God or that God had a starting point, and hence he is not infinite. NOT MUCH OF AN ANSWER? this IS the answer. If you trully beleive that God came from somewhere then you have nothing to do with religion. You may think you are a religious Christian but in fact you belive in your own little version of the Christian faith. This is quite common among various believers of various religions. It is a trend of modern times that supporters of any given religion feel free to interpret its teachings in their own way and still consider themselves part of that religion. Muslims beleive in Jesus but that doesnt make them Christians. Beleiving in Christ does not mean you are a Christian. If you indeed think deep inside that God came from somewhere and you keep searching for that answer then how can you claim that your God is infinite and Lord?
quote : "God never told anyone not to ask him questions"
it seems to me that you have done a bit of selective reading. Yes i truly believe that the book of Luke is full of valuable teachings on life. But the rest of the books are filled with examples of God not liking to be questioned. Maybe your notion of the faith to the God of Abraham is just an accumulation of Holywood's influences. Or indeed you choose which parts to take seriously and which not based on your logic. Logic which is the product of your social environment. e.g. Americans do not have the same logic as Europeans or Asians.
quote: "Is it not possible that when he did what he did that good and evil came into existence"
Well, you are asking me a question that i can answer only if i believed that God exists. Since i don't i cannot tell you anything that is time related according to the point where the devil was cast out of heaven. As far as i m concerned they never existed and it never happened.
it seems to me that you are one of the confused. If you are asking where God came from then you are suggesting that someone created God or that God had a starting point, and hence he is not infinite. NOT MUCH OF AN ANSWER? this IS the answer. If you trully beleive that God came from somewhere then you have nothing to do with religion. You may think you are a religious Christian but in fact you belive in your own little version of the Christian faith. This is quite common among various believers of various religions. It is a trend of modern times that supporters of any given religion feel free to interpret its teachings in their own way and still consider themselves part of that religion. Muslims beleive in Jesus but that doesnt make them Christians. Beleiving in Christ does not mean you are a Christian. If you indeed think deep inside that God came from somewhere and you keep searching for that answer then how can you claim that your God is infinite and Lord?
quote : "God never told anyone not to ask him questions"
it seems to me that you have done a bit of selective reading. Yes i truly believe that the book of Luke is full of valuable teachings on life. But the rest of the books are filled with examples of God not liking to be questioned. Maybe your notion of the faith to the God of Abraham is just an accumulation of Holywood's influences. Or indeed you choose which parts to take seriously and which not based on your logic. Logic which is the product of your social environment. e.g. Americans do not have the same logic as Europeans or Asians.
quote: "Is it not possible that when he did what he did that good and evil came into existence"
Well, you are asking me a question that i can answer only if i believed that God exists. Since i don't i cannot tell you anything that is time related according to the point where the devil was cast out of heaven. As far as i m concerned they never existed and it never happened.
alejandroAT
Senior member
i have to concure with tfcmasta97. Huberm seems to think that Logic is a power of nature. Logic exists only inside ones head. Whether you find something logical or not has nothing to do with whether it happens or not.
For example: Do you think its logical to infuse your creation with a thurst for knowledge and then tell them not to eat from the tree? Sounds like your God is a serious sadist!
engineereeyore
Platinum Member
No, actually I'm not really confused at all. You may continue to believe such if you wish, but that is your opinion and nothing more.
As for being Christian, I don't recall ever claiming to be. The title Christian is nothing but a word and I have no need for it. Do I believe in Christ and in the Bible, absolutely. But like you said, belief in Christ in not enough for most people to consider you a Christian.
And actually, God having a starting point does not in anyway take away from his powers or his abilities. If you believe that is does, that's your deal. And exactly how does this idea show I have nothing to do with religion? I am very involved in my religion, as are the millions of others who also belong to it.
As for claiming God is infinite and Lord, well, do you believe that Jesus Christ is also infinite, or as you say, "without beginning"? If you do, you are mistaken, for the Bible plainly states that Christ was God's first creation. How exactly does that fit in with you philosophy?
Or perhaps you just don't understand. Asking God a question and questioning God are two completely different things. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the first. As for the second, you are correct. We should not question what God does, but we are more than welcome to ask a question. Perhaps you should worry less about Hollywood and my logic and actually read the post.
Sure, you can answer the question. Instead of considering God and the devil, consider the first person who was ever wronged and the person who wronged him. Prior to that event, did Good and evil exist? If so, which came first?
sourceninja
Diamond Member
I belive jesus was either a very smart man or a very crazy man, but not the son of god.
alejandroAT
Senior member
Sorry if i offended i had no intention engineereeyore. By "you" i mean the general "you". I should have used "one" instead. sorry but english is not my mother tongue.
quote: "And actually, God having a starting point does not in anyway take away from his powers or his abilities. If you believe that is does, that's your deal. And exactly how does this idea show I have nothing to do with religion? I am very involved in my religion, as are the millions of others who also belong to it. "
I am not familiar with your religion so again i apologise for being erronious. But as far as Christianity is concerned God is eternal. Has no beggining or end. If God himslef had a creator then he is not God by default. His creator is God and so on until you cant see the horizon any more and you have nothing to worship.
quote: "As for claiming God is infinite and Lord, well, do you believe that Jesus Christ is also infinite, or as you say, "without beginning"?"
Of course he is according to christians. God, again according to the christians, is one and three at the same time. The father, the son and the holy spirit. It is hard to understand but thats who he is according to them. ALL 3 at the same time. Of course Christ always existed according to that theory, he just didnt exist in the form that humanity got aquainted with 2000 years ago (the human form).
quote: "Sure, you can answer the question. Instead of considering God and the devil, consider the first person who was ever wronged and the person who wronged him. Prior to that event, did Good and evil exist? If so, which came first?"
now it is my turn to tell you to read the post. I was clear i think on my beleif that good and evil do not exist in nature. Only in the head of humans. Hence my answer is this: Good and evil started the time humans got enough neurons in their brains to actually conceive a notion. Whether the one came prior to the other is of no real significance as it happened inside our heads and not in nature.
NOTE: plz do not take offence by my harshness. I am Greek and as a mediteranean i have the tendency to be overdramatic. Only I know how many Americans i have offended over what i thought was just a civilised argument. Some cultures are more sensitive than others. My english friends have told me that when we greeks have a conversation they wonder on whether they should be calling the police 🙂
quote: "And actually, God having a starting point does not in anyway take away from his powers or his abilities. If you believe that is does, that's your deal. And exactly how does this idea show I have nothing to do with religion? I am very involved in my religion, as are the millions of others who also belong to it. "
I am not familiar with your religion so again i apologise for being erronious. But as far as Christianity is concerned God is eternal. Has no beggining or end. If God himslef had a creator then he is not God by default. His creator is God and so on until you cant see the horizon any more and you have nothing to worship.
quote: "As for claiming God is infinite and Lord, well, do you believe that Jesus Christ is also infinite, or as you say, "without beginning"?"
Of course he is according to christians. God, again according to the christians, is one and three at the same time. The father, the son and the holy spirit. It is hard to understand but thats who he is according to them. ALL 3 at the same time. Of course Christ always existed according to that theory, he just didnt exist in the form that humanity got aquainted with 2000 years ago (the human form).
quote: "Sure, you can answer the question. Instead of considering God and the devil, consider the first person who was ever wronged and the person who wronged him. Prior to that event, did Good and evil exist? If so, which came first?"
now it is my turn to tell you to read the post. I was clear i think on my beleif that good and evil do not exist in nature. Only in the head of humans. Hence my answer is this: Good and evil started the time humans got enough neurons in their brains to actually conceive a notion. Whether the one came prior to the other is of no real significance as it happened inside our heads and not in nature.
NOTE: plz do not take offence by my harshness. I am Greek and as a mediteranean i have the tendency to be overdramatic. Only I know how many Americans i have offended over what i thought was just a civilised argument. Some cultures are more sensitive than others. My english friends have told me that when we greeks have a conversation they wonder on whether they should be calling the police 🙂
engineereeyore
Platinum Member
No offence taken. You're good. You've actually been quite nice.
It is true that I believe God to be eternal, which really means existing outside of time. So consider this, if the resurrection happens, which Christians believe it will, when will we die? The belief is never, so will we not also become eternal, continuing without interruption and outside the scope of time? If God was in fact in a similar position as us at one point in time and was resurrected also, would he not then classify as being eternal? Doesn't mean he never had a start, just means he'll continue on forever and that our minds in their current state are uncapable of comprehending his existence. Not sure I see a problem with that.
Ah, but the scripture are again very plain in the fact that this happened some time before Christ was on the Earth. As for believing in the 3-in-1 theory, I don't. Not all who believe in Christ believe this to be the truth. Singularity is only one possible definition of one. Unity of purpose is also a definition of one and to me seems to fit in much better. The idea of 3-in-1 was actually invented between 300-400 years after Christ death. I can get you more information on that if you wish.
I have read your post, but what I am trying to help you understand is the answer to a question you asked earlier. "What would be the point of God if there was no devil?" There is still a great need for God without the devil. That time prior to the existence of this ideal of "good and evil" existed, it had to have. Do you not think that knowledge, understanding, and growth still occurred even in the absence of evil? God did indeed have a function even without the devil. I'm not trying to convince you that good and evil exist, but only that there is a purpose and a function in life without them.
No worries. My family is of Greek heritage, so I'm used to it. I've had several conversations similar to the one you mentioned in my family. It's all good. 😉
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