A question about the "rich paying their fair share" charge...

[Atreus21]

I don't know if this has ever been posted before.

http://ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html

From this graph you can glean the following:

For Tax Year 2008 - Total Personal Income Taxes Paid:
Individuals in the top 1% pay 38% of Federal Personal Income Tax (these individuals make about $380,000 a year or more).
Individuals in the top 2-5% pay 21% of Federal Personal Income Tax (these individuals make between about $160,000 and $380,000 a year).
Individuals in the top 6-10% pay 11% of Federal Personal Income Tax (these individuals make between about $114,000 and $160,000 a year).
Individuals in the top 11-25% pay 16% of Federal Personal Income Tax (these individuals make between about $67,000 and $114,000 a year).
Individuals in the top 26-50% pay 11% of Federal Personal Income Tax (these individuals make between about $33,000 and $67,000 a year).
Individuals in the bottom 50% pay 3% of Federal Personal Income Tax (these individuals make $33,000 or less a year).

The only discrepancy I can see in the slightest from these numbers is that people in the 11-25% bracket pay 5% more in taxes than the top 6-10% bracket. That's a problem, yes, but I don't think it gels very well with the image of horrible greedy overlords that rich people are portrayed to be at least on this forum.

But could someone explain to me what is meant when they say the rich don't pay their fair share? Fair share of what?

EDIT: Woolfe requested data showing taxes paid as a percentage of one's taxable income. I found that data here:

http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=96981,00.html

From this data, I've gleaned the following:

Tax Year 2009:
After tax credits, individuals with between $1 and $5,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 4.8% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $5,000 and $10,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 2.6% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $10,000 and $15,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 2.3% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $15,000 and $20,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 3% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $20,000 and $25,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 4.5% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $25,000 and $30,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 5.4% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $30,000 and $40,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 6% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $40,000 and $50,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 6.8% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $50,000 and $60,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 7.7% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $75,000 and $100,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 8.5% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $100,000 and $200,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 11.9% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $200,000 and $500,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 19.6% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $500,000 and $1,000,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 24.4% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $1,000,000 and $1,500,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 25.3% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $1,500,000 and $2,000,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 25.6% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $2,000,000 and $5,000,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 25.8% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with between $5,000,000 and $10,000,000 Adjusted Gross Income pay 25.4% of their AGI in income taxes.
Under the same conditions, individuals with $10,000,000 or more Adjusted Gross Income pay 22.6% of their AGI in income taxes.

I wish I could represent these percentages in a graph.

 

[dank69]

I don't know if this has ever been posted before...

Are you serious retarded?

 

[TheSlamma]

That's before tax breaks and loopholes

Find me a rich person that actually pays that amount in taxes and I will show you someone who isn't rich.

 

[Nintendesert]

They aren't paying their fair share of my mortgage like they should be.

 

[Atreus21]

That's before tax breaks and loopholes

Find me a rich person that actually pays that amount in taxes and I will show you someone who isn't rich.

Is there a source which adjusts these numbers to account for tax breaks and loopholes?

 

[Craig234]

Yawn. Why don't you just link the Heritage foundation and save time for propaganda?

As the top 1% has *doubled their share of income*; as the economy has doubled in size with the bottom 80% getting none of it after inflation; cry for the rich more.

Talk about falling for propaganda.

Tell you what - I'll take half your money, and pay the taxes, lowering yours. Deal?

 

[dank69]

Is there a source which adjusts these numbers to account for tax breaks and loopholes?

Why do you even care? Do you think poor people should pay for rich people's government benefits? 'Rich people paying their fair share' is a strawman and you know it.

 

[woolfe9999]

OP, you might want to look up the capital gains tax rate then do some research on how seriously wealthy people acquire most of their money.

 

[Atreus21]

Why do you even care? Do you think poor people should pay for rich people's government benefits? 'Rich people paying their fair share' is a strawman and you know it.

By what data?

 

[Atreus21]

Yawn. Why don't you just link the Heritage foundation and save time for propaganda?

As the top 1% has *doubled their share of income*; as the economy has doubled in size with the bottom 80% getting none of it after inflation; cry for the rich more.

Talk about falling for propaganda.

Tell you what - I'll take half your money, and pay the taxes, lowering yours. Deal?

I'm not crying for the rich. I'm asking for clarification on what democrats mean when they say rich people don't pay their fair share.

In the case of personal income taxes, it appears they pay more than their fair share.

 

[QuantumPion]

I'm not crying for the rich. I'm asking for clarification on what democrats mean when they say rich people don't pay their fair share.

In the case of personal income taxes, it appears they pay more than their fair share.

Here, I'll save you the trouble of trying to wring a rational response out of the liberal kooks.

Fair share = your entire net worth + your entire yearly income - $50,000 per year.

Nobody needs more than $50,000 per year. If you make more than that, you have more than your fair share and you took it from the poor and the needy.

 

[dank69]

Here, I'll save you the trouble of trying to wring a rational response out of the liberal kooks.

Fair share = your entire net worth + your entire yearly income - $50,000 per year.

Nobody needs more than $50,000 per year. If you make more than that, you have more than your fair share and you took it from the poor and the needy.

Oh good, another strawman.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Yawn. Why don't you just link the Heritage foundation and save time for propaganda?

As the top 1% has *doubled their share of income*; as the economy has doubled in size with the bottom 80% getting none of it after inflation; cry for the rich more.

Talk about falling for propaganda.

Tell you what - I'll take half your money, and pay the taxes, lowering yours. Deal?

How is it falling for propoganda?
The propoganda is saying that the bottom HALF on wage earners in the US pay nothing at all in income taxes, yet use the most in government services, but somehow they don't need to pay for it.
It's fools like you that think because someone can afford to do something they must be forced to do it.
Why don't you and your ilk champion the cause of making those on welfare work for it? They can pave streets, or pick up trash or something can't they? IF you want to take from the rich, then the poor must also have something taken from them.

I'll give you a hint. Poor people for the most part are poor because they are stupid. It has nothing to do with race or gender or political leaning or religious belief structures.
It has to do with ambition and drive.

 

[spidey07]

That's before tax breaks and loopholes

Find me a rich person that actually pays that amount in taxes and I will show you someone who isn't rich.

What loopholes can I take advantage of? Imagine a two income family in the top 5% of wage earners. Most deductions are gone and AMT starts taking a chunk.

Please tell me about the loopholes and tax breaks! I would like to take advantage of said loopholes and tax breaks!

 

[Atreus21]

OP, you might want to look up the capital gains tax rate then do some research on how seriously wealthy people acquire most of their money.

Well, I found the capital gains tax rate on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax_in_the_United_States

Could you clarify your point?

I would imagine that the seriously wealthy make most of their money on wealth realized from investments.

 

[sm625]

The real rich put their money into foundations. Then the foundations go on not just to avoid taxation but actually generate wealth through propaganda. These foundations are used to help set both policy and ideology to further enrich the very rich. Most people have no clue how big this is. This huge interlocking network of organized tax-free wealth is a big part of the true political paradigm.

 

[DaveSimmons]

But could someone explain to me what is meant when they say the rich don't pay their fair share? Fair share of what?

One point is that the wealthy benefit from regulation, services and infrastructure more than the poor do.

For example, money spent on enforcement of intellectual property rights helps rich IP holders but doesn't benefit grocery clerks.

Or more generally, the existence of our stable power grid, communications networks, legal system, defense and law enforcement all help a few middle class get rich and the rich get richer. They use more of what government provides, subsidizes and/or regulates.

 

[QuantumPion]

The real rich put their money into foundations. Then the foundations go on not just to avoid taxation but actually generate wealth through propaganda. These foundations are used to help set both policy and ideology to further enrich the very rich. Most people have no clue how big this is. This huge interlocking network of organized tax-free wealth is a big part of the true political paradigm.

Ya, like the Ford foundation, the Tides foundation, the Heinz foundation, The Rockefeller foundation, the Soros foundation...

oh wait, those are all progressive foundations that use their unjustly accumulated wealth in order to implement government policies that take away my money so they can feel less guilty about their own exorbitant lifestyles. :\

 

[Atreus21]

One point is that the wealthy benefit from regulation, services and infrastructure more than the poor do.

For example, money spent on enforcement of intellectual property rights helps rich IP holders but doesn't benefit grocery clerks.

Or more generally, the existence of our stable power grid, communications networks, legal system, defense and law enforcement all help a few middle class get rich and the rich get richer. They use more of what government provides, subsidizes and/or regulates.

And to the extent that they derive a greater benefit from these services, it seems to me that they should pay an accordingly higher percentage of taxes.

And in the case of personal income tax, they do. At least in 2008 they did.

 

[theevilsharpie]

But could someone explain to me what is meant when they say the rich don't pay their fair share?

Conservatives are accused of wanting certain government services, but not wanting any tax increases to fund them. You see this all the time with the "we have a spending problem, not a revenue problem" tripe that conservatives love to parrot, even though conservative leaders have made no realistic effort to cut spending in any meaningful way.

"The rich aren't paying their fair share" is just the liberal version of the above.

Bottom line, everyone wants their government services but doesn't want to pay for them personally.

 

[Atreus21]

Conservatives are accused of wanting certain government services, but not wanting any tax increases to fund them. You see this all the time with the "we have a spending problem, not a revenue problem" tripe that conservatives love to parrot, even though conservative leaders have made no realistic effort to cut spending in any meaningful way.

"The rich aren't paying their fair share" is just the liberal version of the above.

Bottom line, everyone wants their government services but doesn't want to pay for them personally.

That may be true, but I'm challenging liberals to define exactly what they mean by fair share. They appear to pay their fair share of personal income taxes. Of what then don't they pay their fair share?

Woolfe mentioned Capital Gains taxes, but I'm having trouble finding similar data to what I found on personal income taxes paid. Anyone who can find a source for this would be appreciated.

 

[sm625]

Ya, like the Ford foundation, the Tides foundation, the Heinz foundation, The Rockefeller foundation, the Soros foundation...

oh wait, those are all progressive foundations that use their unjustly accumulated wealth in order to implement government policies that take away my money so they can feel less guilty about their own exorbitant lifestyles. :\

Who said their wealth was unjustly accumulated? But anyway, you cannot anthropamorphize a foundation. These things do not have feelings, they only serve a purpose. Most of these institutions operate outside of mainstream political scrutiny. They are inherently anti-democratic. all the foundations you mentioned have helped solidify this clown show political theater that pits McCain vs Obama in a battle of the witless, and we all watch and criticize the players and the other spectators. But in reality, these foundations have far more power than the puppets we focus on.

 

[Paul98]

What loopholes can I take advantage of? Imagine a two income family in the top 5% of wage earners. Most deductions are gone and AMT starts taking a chunk.

Please tell me about the loopholes and tax breaks! I would like to take advantage of said loopholes and tax breaks!

As he said, you aren't rich.

 

[Nebor]

For example, money spent on enforcement of intellectual property rights helps rich IP holders but doesn't benefit grocery clerks.

I think you're discounting proprietary bagging techniques. Eggs on side (TM), for instance.

 

[BoomerD]

Year $10,001 $20,001 $60,001 $100,001 $250,001
1913 1% 2% 3% 5% 6%
1914 1% 2% 3% 5% 6%
1916 2% 3% 5% 7% 10%
1918 16% 21% 41% 64% 72%
1920 12% 17% 37% 60% 68%
1922 10% 16% 36% 56% 58%
1924 7% 11% 27% 43% 44%
1926 6% 10% 21% 25% 25%
1928 6% 10% 21% 25% 25%
1930 6% 10% 21% 25% 25%
1932 10% 16% 36% 56% 58%
1934 11% 19% 37% 56% 58%
1936 11% 19% 39% 62% 68%
1938 11% 19% 39% 62% 68%
1940 14% 28% 51% 62% 68%
1942 38% 55% 75% 85% 88%
1944 41% 59% 81% 92% 94%
1946 38% 56% 78% 89% 91%
1948 38% 56% 78% 89% 91%
1950 38% 56% 78% 89% 91%
1952 42% 62% 80% 90% 92%
1954 38% 56% 78% 89% 91%
1956 26% 38% 62% 75% 89%
1958 26% 38% 62% 75% 89%
1960 26% 38% 62% 75% 89%
1962 26% 38% 62% 75% 89%
1964 23% 34% 56% 66% 76%
1966 - 1976 22% 32% 53% 62% 70%
1980 18% 24% 54% 59% 70%
1982 16% 22% 49% 50% 50%
1984 14% 18% 42% 45% 50%
1986 14% 18% 38% 45% 50%
1988 15% 15% 28% 28% 28%
1990 15% 15% 28% 28% 28%
1992 15% 15% 28% 28% 31%
1994 15% 15% 28% 31% 39.6%
1996 15% 15% 28% 31% 36%
1998 15% 15% 28% 28% 36%
2000 15% 15% 28% 28% 36%
2002 10% 15% 27% 27% 35%
2004 10% 15% 25% 25% 33%
2006 10% 15% 15% 25% 33%
2008 10% 15% 15% 25% 33%
2010 10% 15% 15% 25% 33%

Sorry about the shitty format..