So far the OP has behaved very well and has maintained a very calm, patient attitude towards others' opinions. You are the only one who is provoking him. I'm not sure who is the flamebait troll in this thread.
So far the OP has behaved very well and has maintained a very calm, patient attitude towards others' opinions. You are the only one who is provoking him. I'm not sure who is the flamebait troll in this thread.
If Jesus was God and loved us, are you sure what he did was in the best interest of us as human beings? If you told someone that their sins have already been forgiven, would they still do good? As human beings, we have a tendency to commit sins, due to our weaknesses and Satan's temptations. What would the motivation be to do good if there is no real need for it?
If Jesus really is God, then can't he handle one more sin ... and one more ... and more...?
The Jewish custom may still hold, but when it comes to Jesus, he is not just dying, according to Christians, for the sins of a few, but for all those who believe in him at the time he was alive and after him until the day of judgement. That is far too much of a stretch from the Jewish tradition.
The Jewish link was just a sacrifice thing....
Jesus did what he did (death) not just for us, but for his glory...He showed us that he loves us...A strong Christian is able to resist temptation most of the time, but when he fails, Jesus is there...Yes, Jesus can handle more and more sin, but as Christians, laying more and more isn't something that's done...I mean, he did die on the cross when he didn't have to...
shilala
Lifer
- Oct 5, 2004
- 11,437
- 1
- 76
Jesus died for our sins as a selfless act. It's about unconditional love.
It jives with the purist theme that allowed him to go to hell and escape unscathed.
This is where my beef is with religion...
Why does everything have to be so contrary and contradictive?
Something as simple as The Commandments and The Prayer of St. Francis can serve as guideposts.
Leave it to people to completely screw anything up beyond comprehension. If we were 1% smarter we'd all be dead.
Ok. But I still cannot understand why God would let an innocent man suffer the sadistic torture at the cross for the sins of others. Can you in all earnestness say that this is absolutely necessary to save you from hell? Can you in all sincerity say that you don't feel guilty of this in anyway?
This also shows that God is unjust by making an innocent man suffer for the evil committed by others. If it's presumed that Jesus is God, then God punished Himself and let Himself die at the hands of mere mortals who He could have forgiven out of his infinite mercy without any of this.
As for the trinity, what does Jesus mean when he says in Mark 12:29:
"Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one".
He seems to be emphatically denying the trinity.
Also, the jews believed in Jesus as a prophet, are they also saved? But didn't they conspire against Jesus in the first place? Their actions led to the capture of Jesus at the hands of Pontius Pilate ... in a way, they paved the way to salvation for the rest of humanity!
If he is praying to "the father", then he is not the father, i.e. God. If he knew that this was his purpose, then why does he seem to have second thoughts at the eleventh hour?
Again, how can Jesus pray to God if he is God? Is he praying to himself?
First, we are all sinners and have been since Adam and Eve's original sin. (Sin is disobeying God.) God said at the very beginning that the punishment for sin was to be death, but they didn't listen, and following their stead, we are all sinners. Now, God is just and his Word goes, so by all means we deserve death.
However, He was the one who created us, and loves us incredibly more than we could ever understand. For this reason, He sent His only Son to take our own punishment on Himself. We cannot pay the punishment for our own sins since it is physical and spiritual death. That's why Jesus had to die; like someone mentioned, the Jewish tradition of sacrifices was part of the Law, which was provided for us to follow in order to be right with God. However, he knew we could never follow the Law; in fact, it showed us how truly sinful we actually are. That's why He had to send His Son. He was punished in our stead so that we could be "redeemed," that is, be right with the Lord spiritually once again.
Jesus died a physical death, since he was both fully human and fully God. It is somewhat of a mystery how this could be, but he did die physically. However, since he was a perfect man, he did not deserve the punishment for death and therefore rose again, both physically and spiritually (happy Easter, by the way!). Because He rose, we know He is who he said (the Son of God) and we know he has the power to take our sins upon Himself.
Anyway, sorry; that's a bit long, but that's a little bit of the technicalities. I'm sure we'll never know how much this sacrifice means to us. I can't honestly say I don't feel guilty, but thank you for mentioning that. It always pays to be reminded of just how much Jesus did for us. Now all there is left to believe it and follow and walk with Him, which I am trying to do more every day. I recommend you find a Bible to read. Romans especially deals with a lot of these issues you mentioned.
sao123
Lifer
- May 27, 2002
- 12,653
- 205
- 106
In the old Testament why did people sacrifice animals to God?
One of the central purposes of the animal sacrifices under the Law of Moses was to keep before the eyes and hearts of Israel their sin and the truth that blood had to be shed in order for their sins to be forgiveness (Heb. 9:22; 10:3).
There was a problem, though: "It is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins." (Heb. 10:4) Therefore, the animal sacrifices of the OT law of Moses were repeated over and over. (Heb. 10:1-3, 11).
The animal sacrifices of the law of Moses were a foreshadowing of the perfect and complete sacrifice of Jesus Christ for the sins of the world (see Heb. 9:13-14; 10:1). If animal sacrificed had perfected the worshipper, no more would have been needed nor offered. Yet, there was continual shedding of animal blood under the law of Moses (Heb. 10:2-3, 11).
This is not true of the sacrifice of Jesus, who offered Himself one time for all time for the sins of the world. Hebrews 10:10-14 tells us:
10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Note verse 12, which says Jesus offered "one sacrifice for sins forever." His sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to forever pay the price of redemption for sinners.
Animal sacrifices served their purpose well. They taught man of his need to be purified from his sins by the giving of life (please see Lev. 17:11). But now, the law of Moses, which contained regulations for animal sacrifice, has been "nailed to the cross" (Col. 2:14).
It was the life of the Son of God, given up freely on the cross once, that forever has the power to remove sin (Heb. 9:25-28). The gospel of Christ, which contains the provisions of the sacrifice of Christ, brings salvation to all who will believe and obey Him (Rom. 1:16-17; Heb. 5:8-9).
Jesus was God in man form while he was here, he died to save Christians from their sins. He can die because he is man but is one with the Father in that he will be sitting at the right hand of God when us Christians get there.
edit: this convo is actually going better than i originally would have thought.
edit: this convo is actually going better than i originally would have thought.
Thank you to everyone taking part in the discussion.
I find the concept of the original sin absurd because I refuse to believe that an innocent person should be charged/punished for the sins of another. Adam and Eve indubitably committed the original sin but to consign all of humanity for this act of theirs is unjust to say the least. In my eyes, each individual is innocent by birth and reponsible for his actions alone. It is only when one transgresses the limits set by God that one is guilty of sin.
I should also say that I believe that Christianity, today, only bears some semblance to the monotheistic faith which Jesus came to affirm and uphold. The concept of monotheism, which is central to the Abrahamic religions is completely absent in modern Christianity.
From my limited study of the Bible, I can say without the shadow of a doubt that Jesus never claimed to be God. In fact, I find it abhorrent to attribute such a claim of divinity to a man who would never accept it. Why? Because Jesus was a practicing Jew, someone who came to reaffirm the message brought by Moses to the children of Israel. And what was that message? To believe in the worship of one God and to associate no partners with Him. This same message was preached by Adam, Noah, Abrahman, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, Moses, Aaron and all other prophets of God who came before Jesus and one after him. Hence, to ascribe the claim of divinity to Jesus would be to say that Jesus strayed from the path of God.
We can find examples of this fact in the New Testament that Jesus never explicitly made claims of divinity and always considered himself to be the servant of the one true God.
- The Lord our God is Lord alone! Therefore, you shall adore the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength." [Deuteronomy 6:4-5]
- "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one". [Mark 12:29]
- "If you truly loved me you would rejoice to have me go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I". [John 14:28]
- "Father, if it is your will, take this cup from me; yet not my will but yours be done." [Luke 22:42]
There are many more instances where Jesus clarifies the disctinction betweem himself and the infinitely superior being whom he himself worships.
I think if anyone is familiar with the historical development of Christianity, it is not hard to see that many of the concepts upheld by Christians today are later additions and innovations to this monotheistic faith. It was Paul who introduced the concepts of Jesus being God and salvation through the crucifixion of Jesus at a much later time in the history of Christianity. A short study of the development of the Gospels reveals the change in style and the actual message of Jesus as one goes from Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. It becomes apparent that the image of Jesus evolves into a very divine one, treading farther away from the teachings of the prophets of God before him. One might ask why should it remain the same? I think it is only reasonable that it should since God's law doesn't change and since human beings continue to exercise their gift of free will, they should also continue to be held accountable for their actions.
Therefore, I think that in a way it is Paul whom Christians today follow instead of Jesus.
I think it is very important for Jesus to make the explicit claim of divinity to lay to rest the doubts anyone might have, but we don't find that in the Bible.
Also, as I have made clear from my posts above, there are far too many distinctions between Jesus and God in the Bible(some of them made clear by Jesus himself!) for me to consider the doctrine of the trinity seriously, not to say that it is an easy concept to fathom in the first place. We also find essential concepts of monotheism in the Bible which are contradictory to the other beliefs taught by the Bible.
I just want to take a minute to thank everyone who made serious contributions to this thread. It was a very informative and interesting read (once i got through all the crap).
sao123
Lifer
- May 27, 2002
- 12,653
- 205
- 106
I respect your opinion, yet I disagree.
Just because Jesus himself does not come out and open say he is God, there are other scriptures which paint the picture that he most definately is.
A few examples:
Isaiah 9:6??For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end....?
Why would Jesus name be the migthy God if he wasnt God?
John 1:1-3, 14??In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.?
These passages are speaking of Jesus.
John 20:27-28??Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.?
Thomas called him God.
Philippians 2:5-8??Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.?
I have bolded this scripture, because it possibly explains why Jesus was humble and did not lay verbal claim to his Godship, instead he always chose to glorify his father.
1 Timothy 3:16??And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.?
Once again speaking of Jesus
Revelation 21:6-7??And he [Jesus Christ] said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God , and he shall be my son.?
Mark 2:5-11??When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?... [Jesus] said unto them, But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house? (cf. Lk. 5:20-24).
The scribes? theology was correct: ?Who can forgive sins but God only?? Jesus didn?t disagree with their conclusion; rather he said that He in fact was God and had the authority to forgive sins.
Just because Jesus himself does not come out and open say he is God, there are other scriptures which paint the picture that he most definately is.
A few examples:
Isaiah 9:6??For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end....?
Why would Jesus name be the migthy God if he wasnt God?
John 1:1-3, 14??In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.... And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.?
These passages are speaking of Jesus.
John 20:27-28??Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.?
Thomas called him God.
Philippians 2:5-8??Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.?
I have bolded this scripture, because it possibly explains why Jesus was humble and did not lay verbal claim to his Godship, instead he always chose to glorify his father.
1 Timothy 3:16??And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.?
Once again speaking of Jesus
Revelation 21:6-7??And he [Jesus Christ] said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God , and he shall be my son.?
Mark 2:5-11??When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?... [Jesus] said unto them, But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house? (cf. Lk. 5:20-24).
The scribes? theology was correct: ?Who can forgive sins but God only?? Jesus didn?t disagree with their conclusion; rather he said that He in fact was God and had the authority to forgive sins.
Good looking sao123; a couple more:
John 8:58:
"'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (I AM was the name God originally gave to Moses to call Himself by)
John 10:30: "'I and the Father are one.'"
Luke 22:70:
"They all asked, 'Are you then the Son of God?' He replied, 'You are right in saying I am.'" (again, I AM)
It's all over the place; Jesus is the Son of God; He is in God; He and the Father are one. It's kind of wierd, but he's like another aspect of God. He was given all the limitations of Man, and yet was perfect. It seems like he was given these limitations to show how we as humans must trust in God:
John 8:42:
"Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.'"
Just a quick skimming of the gospels shows how Jesus relied on His Father. Also, he was apparently not omniscient, at least before he was glorified after his resurrection; I can't remember where, but regarding the end times, he said, "No one knows the day, only the Father in heaven; not even the Son." It seems He was limited as a Man before being glorified with His new body.
Regarding original sin, can the GreatBarracuda honestly say he's never disobeyed God's laws? If you read the Old Testament laws, it rapidly becomes clear it is impossible to follow them, which is why sacrifices and ultimately Jesus' sacrifice was necessary.
Regarding Jesus straying from the 'monotheistic faith,' He didn't. It is a mystery, but clearly supported in the Bible and throughout Church history. The Old Testament prophesies about Jesus look forward to this as well, although it would take a good bit of looking. I can think of at least one off the top of my head though. When Shadrack, Meshack and Abednago were in the furnace, the king said, "I see one like a Son of Man walking around in there." These are the exact words used by Jesus (and his disciples and apostles) throughout the Scriptures. (wait, I found it: Daniel 3:25, and it's "a son of the gods", same effect)
John 13:31:
"When he was gone, Jesus said, 'Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him.'"
Daniel 7:9:
"'As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire....'"
7:13:
"'In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.'"
Compare this to Revelation 1:13:
"'....and among the lampstands was someone 'like a son of man' [refers to Daniel 7:13] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow....'"
And this is definately Jesus. Verse 17b:
"''Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.'"
Jesus is alive; he became a man and died so that we might be forgiven, and he has now conquered death for all men (women too of course.)
John 8:58:
"'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (I AM was the name God originally gave to Moses to call Himself by)
John 10:30: "'I and the Father are one.'"
Luke 22:70:
"They all asked, 'Are you then the Son of God?' He replied, 'You are right in saying I am.'" (again, I AM)
It's all over the place; Jesus is the Son of God; He is in God; He and the Father are one. It's kind of wierd, but he's like another aspect of God. He was given all the limitations of Man, and yet was perfect. It seems like he was given these limitations to show how we as humans must trust in God:
John 8:42:
"Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.'"
Just a quick skimming of the gospels shows how Jesus relied on His Father. Also, he was apparently not omniscient, at least before he was glorified after his resurrection; I can't remember where, but regarding the end times, he said, "No one knows the day, only the Father in heaven; not even the Son." It seems He was limited as a Man before being glorified with His new body.
Regarding original sin, can the GreatBarracuda honestly say he's never disobeyed God's laws? If you read the Old Testament laws, it rapidly becomes clear it is impossible to follow them, which is why sacrifices and ultimately Jesus' sacrifice was necessary.
Regarding Jesus straying from the 'monotheistic faith,' He didn't. It is a mystery, but clearly supported in the Bible and throughout Church history. The Old Testament prophesies about Jesus look forward to this as well, although it would take a good bit of looking. I can think of at least one off the top of my head though. When Shadrack, Meshack and Abednago were in the furnace, the king said, "I see one like a Son of Man walking around in there." These are the exact words used by Jesus (and his disciples and apostles) throughout the Scriptures. (wait, I found it: Daniel 3:25, and it's "a son of the gods", same effect)
John 13:31:
"When he was gone, Jesus said, 'Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him.'"
Daniel 7:9:
"'As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire....'"
7:13:
"'In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.'"
Compare this to Revelation 1:13:
"'....and among the lampstands was someone 'like a son of man' [refers to Daniel 7:13] dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow....'"
And this is definately Jesus. Verse 17b:
"''Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.'"
Jesus is alive; he became a man and died so that we might be forgiven, and he has now conquered death for all men (women too of course.)
Well I'm not sure if the original question was answered (wait, yeah, sentinel got it):
Jesus is God, but he was confined to the body of a man for a time to model trust and obedience to God. He was then crucified, and since He is God (and therefore, of course perfect) He conquered death from the inside. He is now glorified and reigning with the Father.
Jesus is God, but he was confined to the body of a man for a time to model trust and obedience to God. He was then crucified, and since He is God (and therefore, of course perfect) He conquered death from the inside. He is now glorified and reigning with the Father.
What of the verses that I quoted earlier? What about:
- ?The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus? (Acts 3:13).
- ?God raised up his servant? (Acts 3:26).
The servant of course being Jesus.
- "Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" (Exodus 34:14)
- "You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them" (Exodus 20:1-5)
- Jesus said to him, ?Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ?Worship the Lord your God, and him only.?? (Matthew 4:10)
And again, the most unequivocal statement in the Bible which cannot be underestimated:
- "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Mark 12:29)
From the evidence in the Bible, Jesus seems to be nothing more than a human being, albeit a very special one, a mighty prophet of God.
As I said earlier, and of course it is my belief, that a lot of the additions to the Bible that occurred long after Jesus' departure have contaminated the true message of Jesus.
Here, for example are a few of the modifications (intentional or unintentional) to the Bible which make it appear quite contradictory as a whole.
http://www.islaminfo.com/new/detail.asp?ID=61
http://www.islaminfo.com/new/detail.asp?ID=63
- ?The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus? (Acts 3:13).
- ?God raised up his servant? (Acts 3:26).
The servant of course being Jesus.
- "Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God" (Exodus 34:14)
- "You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them" (Exodus 20:1-5)
- Jesus said to him, ?Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ?Worship the Lord your God, and him only.?? (Matthew 4:10)
And again, the most unequivocal statement in the Bible which cannot be underestimated:
- "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Mark 12:29)
From the evidence in the Bible, Jesus seems to be nothing more than a human being, albeit a very special one, a mighty prophet of God.
As I said earlier, and of course it is my belief, that a lot of the additions to the Bible that occurred long after Jesus' departure have contaminated the true message of Jesus.
Here, for example are a few of the modifications (intentional or unintentional) to the Bible which make it appear quite contradictory as a whole.
http://www.islaminfo.com/new/detail.asp?ID=61
http://www.islaminfo.com/new/detail.asp?ID=63
According to that first one, Matthew improved on the story to help show Jesus as being the Son of God. On the contrary, it goes to show the reality of the story. If you ask two witnesses about a crime and they tell you identical stories, any CJ person will tell you it is definately a pre-collaborative story; that is, they got together and made it up. It's the subtle variations that come from different viewpoints that goes to show the accuracy of the writers.
Regarding Jesus being a servant of God, I think I mentioned that earlier.
"Jesus is God, but he was confined to the body of a man for a time to model trust and obedience to God. He was then crucified, and since He is God (and therefore, of course perfect) He conquered death from the inside. He is now glorified and reigning with the Father."
He modeled how our lives should be as the servants of God that we are. He, however, served in a much different way: His purpose was to die to take our sins upon himself. This would be impossible for a mere man; our deaths serve as punishments for our own sins. Jesus was a man, yet he was also God; therefore He had no sin and could pay the penalty for our sins.
Regarding Jesus being a servant of God, I think I mentioned that earlier.
"Jesus is God, but he was confined to the body of a man for a time to model trust and obedience to God. He was then crucified, and since He is God (and therefore, of course perfect) He conquered death from the inside. He is now glorified and reigning with the Father."
He modeled how our lives should be as the servants of God that we are. He, however, served in a much different way: His purpose was to die to take our sins upon himself. This would be impossible for a mere man; our deaths serve as punishments for our own sins. Jesus was a man, yet he was also God; therefore He had no sin and could pay the penalty for our sins.
About the Trinity, someone wrote:
Try to explain it, and you'll lose your mind;
But try to deny it, and you'll lose your soul.
The Trinity is an essential doctrine to the Christian faith. The doctrine of the Trinity is the declaration that there is one God, but three distinct personalities. Without the Trinity, the Christian foundation and belief cannot stand. Along with the other people mentioning the Scriptures from John 1, equating the Word with Jesus and the Word with God, we can make a conclusion from the things Jesus claimed to point to the fact that He was God.
Jesus, on a number occasions, said "Your sins are forgiven" to various people who needed healing. The Pharisees were correct in saying that God was the only one who could forgive sins. They called Jesus a blasphemer because of the power he claimed to have. He equated himself with God because of his claim to be able to forgive sins. Christians would be in big trouble if Jesus Christ were not God. If Jesus were not God, the satisfaction for the payment of sins would be incomplete.
Jesus willingly limited himself to be man. Imagine an Olympic sprinter participating in a 3-legged race with his 10-year old son. If he ran as fast as he could, they would lose the race because the son would be left behind because he wouldn?t be able to keep up with his father. In order to win, the Olympic father would have to limit himself to compete. Jesus was fully capable of doing anything, but He didn?t.
Why would Jesus take our place for something that we did? Barracuda, you are right in saying that it?s not fair that someone else should pay something that he did not owe. This expresses the love of God. Romans 5:8 says, ?But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.? That is the concept of grace. It?s an undeserved favor. We will never understand it. All we can do is accept it.
Try to explain it, and you'll lose your mind;
But try to deny it, and you'll lose your soul.
The Trinity is an essential doctrine to the Christian faith. The doctrine of the Trinity is the declaration that there is one God, but three distinct personalities. Without the Trinity, the Christian foundation and belief cannot stand. Along with the other people mentioning the Scriptures from John 1, equating the Word with Jesus and the Word with God, we can make a conclusion from the things Jesus claimed to point to the fact that He was God.
Jesus, on a number occasions, said "Your sins are forgiven" to various people who needed healing. The Pharisees were correct in saying that God was the only one who could forgive sins. They called Jesus a blasphemer because of the power he claimed to have. He equated himself with God because of his claim to be able to forgive sins. Christians would be in big trouble if Jesus Christ were not God. If Jesus were not God, the satisfaction for the payment of sins would be incomplete.
Jesus willingly limited himself to be man. Imagine an Olympic sprinter participating in a 3-legged race with his 10-year old son. If he ran as fast as he could, they would lose the race because the son would be left behind because he wouldn?t be able to keep up with his father. In order to win, the Olympic father would have to limit himself to compete. Jesus was fully capable of doing anything, but He didn?t.
Why would Jesus take our place for something that we did? Barracuda, you are right in saying that it?s not fair that someone else should pay something that he did not owe. This expresses the love of God. Romans 5:8 says, ?But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.? That is the concept of grace. It?s an undeserved favor. We will never understand it. All we can do is accept it.
you're not the first or only one to hold those views. it sounds like a slight variation of Arianism
if not for Paul, Christianity probably would not have been adopted in the gentile world (Rome) and become a world wide religion. It would have suffered the same fate of the Essenes and many other Jewish sects when Rome finally lost patience and dicided to run a first century bulldozer over Israel. This was a very real possibility if James the Just (Bishop of Jerusalem) had steered the early Church to exclude gentiles.
If Jesus' great commission was to spread the gospel to the whole earth, it seems likely to me that using the greatest power the world had known (and it's unprecedented series of roads) would be a logical means of fulfilling that goal. Why else would the messiah have shown up when he did? There was a slight historical window between when the Jews had returned from captivity (Ezra and Nehemiah) and the destruction of Jerusalem (Josephus' Jewish War). If Jesus wasn't the messiah (and if he was from the line of David he clearly would have known he could have been the messiah his entire life), then mankind is still living under The Abrahamic Covenant? Mohammed was right and we should all worship Allah?
Jesus, as a descenant of David, was mankind's only shot for the Messiah of the Hebrew God. If he wasn't, the Bible is a load of dookie and there is no such thing as god. Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology and atheism are the only logical options left.
The history of the Jewish God and mankind is one of covenants. God makes a deal with mankind, and He sticks to it. The deal God made through Jesus and the Cross is that by having faith in Christ, asking for the forgiveness of sins, repenting, and following Him (aka being born again), after mortal death a soul becomes purified through Christ's sacrifice to enter into the presence of God for all eternity.
Christ may have been a practicing Jew, but by all accounts he had serious issues with Temple-based Judaism of his day. His closest followers also clearly interpreted his teachings and appearances to start a sect much different than anything the world had ever seen. I refuse to believe that this little sect was able to rise to worldwide prominence with billions of followers without some sort of divine force behind it. Humans just aren't that good at pulling off such things on their own.
if not for Paul, Christianity probably would not have been adopted in the gentile world (Rome) and become a world wide religion. It would have suffered the same fate of the Essenes and many other Jewish sects when Rome finally lost patience and dicided to run a first century bulldozer over Israel. This was a very real possibility if James the Just (Bishop of Jerusalem) had steered the early Church to exclude gentiles.
If Jesus' great commission was to spread the gospel to the whole earth, it seems likely to me that using the greatest power the world had known (and it's unprecedented series of roads) would be a logical means of fulfilling that goal. Why else would the messiah have shown up when he did? There was a slight historical window between when the Jews had returned from captivity (Ezra and Nehemiah) and the destruction of Jerusalem (Josephus' Jewish War). If Jesus wasn't the messiah (and if he was from the line of David he clearly would have known he could have been the messiah his entire life), then mankind is still living under The Abrahamic Covenant? Mohammed was right and we should all worship Allah?
Jesus, as a descenant of David, was mankind's only shot for the Messiah of the Hebrew God. If he wasn't, the Bible is a load of dookie and there is no such thing as god. Hinduism, Buddhism, Scientology and atheism are the only logical options left.
The history of the Jewish God and mankind is one of covenants. God makes a deal with mankind, and He sticks to it. The deal God made through Jesus and the Cross is that by having faith in Christ, asking for the forgiveness of sins, repenting, and following Him (aka being born again), after mortal death a soul becomes purified through Christ's sacrifice to enter into the presence of God for all eternity.
Christ may have been a practicing Jew, but by all accounts he had serious issues with Temple-based Judaism of his day. His closest followers also clearly interpreted his teachings and appearances to start a sect much different than anything the world had ever seen. I refuse to believe that this little sect was able to rise to worldwide prominence with billions of followers without some sort of divine force behind it. Humans just aren't that good at pulling off such things on their own.
The verses you quoted demonstrate Jesus' role on earth as a servant as well. When Jesus washed his disciples' feet, He was talking about exactly this. You should read the whole thing; John 13.
Roger that Stark.
Why oh why (and how?) would and could the apostles, those closest to Jesus, have ever followed Him and preached Him so exclusively so as to all be martryed eventually (except John, who was exiled)? They were only fishermen to begin with, not some kinds of supermen.
Oh, and what is wrong with Nik? I haven't really been in OT much, but he seems to have quite the attitude.
Why oh why (and how?) would and could the apostles, those closest to Jesus, have ever followed Him and preached Him so exclusively so as to all be martryed eventually (except John, who was exiled)? They were only fishermen to begin with, not some kinds of supermen.
Oh, and what is wrong with Nik? I haven't really been in OT much, but he seems to have quite the attitude.
sao123
Lifer
- May 27, 2002
- 12,653
- 205
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Firstly, I would point out that Jesus repeatedly pointed out that the least amoung us is the greatest. Weak argument at best, but more to follow.
Unlike all the Angels & Disciples (specifically John & Peter) who all explicitly refused any form of being worshipped, Jesus allowed himself to be worshiped. Either that would be blasphemous(and would face the wrath of his father, or he must again be God.
In context:
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
This is a reference to Deut 6:4, laying claims to the religion of the OT jews is a monotheistic religion compared to many of the other religions being polytheistic in the land at that time. In both places, Often this passage is written as: The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.
Perhaps you might like to address a few of the passages i quoted?
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