A query about the German education system.

[OinkBoink]

I was talking to a German guy a couple of months ago and he told me that German universities are largely public institutions. Also, he told me that in many institutions everyone who applies is given a chance to pursue a degree (as opposed to colleges which filter students based on parameters like standardised test scores, high school CGPA etc. even before they enter). But the evaluation in these universities is rigorous so the drop out rate is quite high.

Is this true?

 

[_Rick_]

Mostly.

Some courses are limited to a certain number of students, so applicants are pre-selected based on grades from the final two years of high school.

Pass rates in math are around 50% for each course in the first two semesters, so there's a bunch of drop-outs.

College fees had been established at 1000 euro per year in a few select Länder, for a few years, but have since been largely abolished, also due to the increased management overhead these incurred.

A few years back there was a national process for assigning candidates to popular courses (med/psych and a dozen others), but that has been replaced by a per-school system. 95% of offered courses are basically free to access though.

 

[OinkBoink]

In which courses are applicants pre-selected?

 

[mnewsham]

In which courses are applicants pre-selected?

I would assume the more rigorous courses things that require specialized maths and sciences, probably law studies as well. (physics, electrical engineering, chemical engineering, biochemistry, etc.)

Things like business, economics, political science, information technology, etc. are probably not as selective.

 

[Triumph]

Thankfully for the Germans, your future employment isn't highly based upon having a very expensive piece of paper that says you went somewhere for 4 years and did...something. They actually have more respect for trades and trade schools.

 

[_Rick_]

No, it's usually solely based on (previous and current) popularity, it has nothing to do with the actual course itself.

Currently medicine, dentistry, veterinarian studies and pharmacology are still under a nationwide process of candidate placement. Anything else is dealt with on a local basis. Most of the engineering courses, maths, physics and such are usually not included, because the number of applicants isn't excessive.

I only know of art school (and music colleges) requiring entry exams or examples of prior work.

At my old university, biology is one of the courses that are known to have more applicants than free places. So is architecture. Chemistry and Comp Sci aren't.

 

[_Rick_]

Thankfully for the Germans, your future employment isn't highly based upon having a very expensive piece of paper that says you went somewhere for 4 years and did...something. They actually have more respect for trades and trade schools.

Oh no, a degree still is worth a lot. In fact, Germany is probably the country where the PhD is the most respected anywhere in the world.
But yes, it's not frowned upon to learn a practical trade skill. You will be poor and have a shitty job all your life, but you won't be disrespected.

 

[Pulsar]

Mostly.

Some courses are limited to a certain number of students, so applicants are pre-selected based on grades from the final two years of high school.

Pass rates in math are around 50% for each course in the first two semesters, so there's a bunch of drop-outs.

College fees had been established at 1000 euro per year in a few select Länder, for a few years, but have since been largely abolished, also due to the increased management overhead these incurred.

A few years back there was a national process for assigning candidates to popular courses (med/psych and a dozen others), but that has been replaced by a per-school system. 95% of offered courses are basically free to access though.

Free? That's amazing. You'd never get the teachers and administrators to teach college level courses for free over here. That's a lot of volunteer time to write up on your taxes every year.

 

[_Rick_]

Taxes, baby. Because access to education has to be free, for a nation to flourish intellectually.

 

[Pulsar]

Taxes, baby. Because access to education has to be free, for a nation to flourish intellectually.

Oh, I know about the taxes. I just really dislike it when people say something is free when it really is not even close to free. That'd be like saying the US Army is free of charge.

 

[mnewsham]

Oh, I know about the taxes. I just really dislike it when people say something is free when it really is not even close to free. That'd be like saying the US Army is free of charge.

I'd rather pay higher taxes and have an educated society than not and live with idiots.

 

[OinkBoink]

Is there an age limit if you want to enroll into an engineering or physics course?

Could a 35-40 year old take up one of those courses?

 

[Crono]

Oh, I know about the taxes. I just really dislike it when people say something is free when it really is not even close to free. That'd be like saying the US Army is free of charge.

The word "free" should be rarely used. In fact, people should be charged money to even use the word "free" just to ensure it is misused less.

 

[Broheim]

No, it's usually solely based on (previous and current) popularity, it has nothing to do with the actual course itself.

Currently medicine, dentistry, veterinarian studies and pharmacology are still under a nationwide process of candidate placement. Anything else is dealt with on a local basis. Most of the engineering courses, maths, physics and such are usually not included, because the number of applicants isn't excessive.

I only know of art school (and music colleges) requiring entry exams or examples of prior work.

At my old university, biology is one of the courses that are known to have more applicants than free places. So is architecture. Chemistry and Comp Sci aren't.

this is pretty much like the Danish system, each education has a set amount of student positions allotted each year at every school and admission requirements are used to dial in the number of applicants, as well as ensuring that the applicants are actually skilled enough for that particular education. Medicine generally have very high requirements, both because it's life and death but also because it's very popular. Comp. Sci. isn't very popular so the only requirement is highschool math (two or three years depending on the course). Even if you don't fulfill the acedemic requirements you can still get in through Quota 2, where you'll be evaluated on other things and given an entry exam. Quota 2 students are actually quite popular with the schools because they have a lower average dropout rate.

these requirements are adjusted each year depending on admissions and also job prospects to some extend.

 

[AreaCode707]

My German colleagues were telling me how there are some degrees available that are kind of corporate sponsored - you work somewhere for six months, you take business classes for six months, you go work at the same company for another six months, etc, and then when you get out you go to work at that company.

Actually seemed like a rather brilliant idea to me - you get real world use out of your knowledge immediately, as well as gaining more skills and knowledge that school can't give you, and then get plunged back into the theoretical world where suddenly the theory is a lot more applicable and makes more sense. And you basically have a guaranteed job when you come out.

 

[olds]

The word "free" should be rarely used. In fact, people should be charged money to even use the word "free" just to ensure it is misused less.

I post on here for free.

Oh wait, I had to build a computer, buy a display and pay for internet. Never mind.

 

[_Rick_]

Oh, I know about the taxes. I just really dislike it when people say something is free when it really is not even close to free. That'd be like saying the US Army is free of charge.

Which is why I used the precise wording I did: "free to access".
That's an important notion, because it liberates students from financial pressures, when they're already under academic pressure.
And if they get a decent job out of their studies, they will then pay for the next generation's education.

 

[Hugo Drax]

Thankfully for the Germans, your future employment isn't highly based upon having a very expensive piece of paper that says you went somewhere for 4 years and did...something. They actually have more respect for trades and trade schools.

America Used to have a lot in common with the Germans. Especially in terms of trades and on the job training etc.

College in the US back then was not unaffordable and did not require loans to pay for it, nor was a college degree expected for every job.

We lost our way somehow.

 

[Hugo Drax]

I'd rather pay higher taxes and have an educated society than not and live with idiots.

Also Germans do not have to spend all that money on Defense, so it goes towards things like education etc..

Courtesy of the US being the world police force on our own dime.

 

[Triumph]

Oh no, a degree still is worth a lot. In fact, Germany is probably the country where the PhD is the most respected anywhere in the world.
But yes, it's not frowned upon to learn a practical trade skill. You will be poor and have a shitty job all your life, but you won't be disrespected.

What I mean is that even smart people without degrees are looked down upon. You could work your way up through a company for 20 years, work in and master every department, make connections with all the right people, know all of the ins and outs of how the place runs, and when you go to apply for that middle management project leader spot, you'll be passed over by the guy out of school with a degree.

 

[Skeeedunt]

I post on here for free.

Oh wait, I had to build a computer, buy a display and pay for internet. Never mind.

Don't forget the emotional toll that the rest of us pay.

 

[DCal430]

While Germany ranks high in terms of affordability, it actually ranks very low in accessibility. So while it is cheap, many students are being blocked form such education. Germany actually ranks very low in terms of High Education Accessibility, Finland ranks 1 for accessibility, U.S is 4th, and Germany is 11th.

Someone mentioned very high drop out rate, this probably is why Germany ranks low on accessibility, which is basically measured by those who are able to enter and complete a program.

 

[mikeymikec]

Also Germans do not have to spend all that money on Defense, so it goes towards things like education etc..

I'm not sure where you got this idea from. The only big difference I can think of between the US and Germany with respect to the military is that Germany isn't allowed to develop nuclear weapons.

Germany has troops in Afghanistan, for example.

Courtesy of the US being the world police force on our own dime.

I think if there was any sort of agreement for that to be the case, a lot of developed countries would be paying the US for that service.

 

[AreaCode707]

What I mean is that even smart people without degrees are looked down upon. You could work your way up through a company for 20 years, work in and master every department, make connections with all the right people, know all of the ins and outs of how the place runs, and when you go to apply for that middle management project leader spot, you'll be passed over by the guy out of school with a degree.

My dad was in a special high-potential group mentorship program at MS with a bunch of other people. They started off the first session with little 5 min bios of themselves. My dad was second to last, and as the circle wore on he kept getting more and more self-conscious. Every person had a Masters or PhD, sometimes multiple.

Well, two people before my dad, the person described their three Masters and two PhDs, and then chose to go off on a rant about how self-eduated people just truly don't get it, don't have the same skills, can never equal the expertise and excellence of people with hired education, etc. Pretty much that they aren't worth as much.

See, my dad is one quarter short of his Bachelors in CS (circa 198x). He's a brilliant guy, huge reader and entrepreneurial to boot. He's just always been busy with his businesses and family and never wound up the degree.

He had about five minutes to prepare his thoughts while the next person talked. When his turn came he started off by acknowledging the honorable snoot and respectfully disagreeing with them, and then spent his turn explaining his own path to education and skills-acquisition, and also how he's applied that in raising his kids (we were mostly homeschooled) and how that's really worked out for us (early graduation from college with honors, pretty cool jobs, relatively fast career trajectory, etc.) and how he feels that different types of backgrounds and thinking can be beneficial to a big company like MS.

Interesting stuff.

 

[olds]

Don't forget the emotional toll that the rest of us pay.

I assumed it was incalculable...