A potential Purple Heart sized problem for Kerry with military and veteran voters

[glenn1]

Looks like one of his Purple Hearts might have been a bit of a stretch....

This is not an attempt to bash Kerry. He's demonstrated by his military service that he's an honorable man and he will do fine if elected President. However, being a military vet myself, I will simply point out that medals are a HUGE point of honor among military folk. Before you scoff at that, remember that Admiral Boorda, a 4-star Navy Admiral and the highest ranking officer in the US Navy, committed suicide when it was alleged that he was improperly wearing a "V" (for valor) device on one of his medals. (link for the historical story of Adm. Boorda)

Again, I'm not flaming Kerry, so don't shoot the messenger for posting the story.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: glenn1
Looks like one of his Purple Hearts might have been a bit of a stretch....

This is not an attempt to bash Kerry. He's demonstrated by his military service that he's an honorable man and he will do fine if elected President. However, being a military vet myself, I will simply point out that medals are a HUGE point of honor among military folk. Before you scoff at that, remember that Admiral Boorda, a 4-star Navy Admiral and the highest ranking officer in the US Navy, committed suicide when it was alleged that he was improperly wearing a "V" (for valor) device on one of his medals. (link for the historical story of Adm. Boorda)

Again, I'm not flaming Kerry, so don't shoot the messenger for posting the story.

Gee...why didn't every soldier grab some metal and scratch themselves up three times? A free ticket home it seems.

 

[glenn1]

wow, only one response... i figured both sides would jump on this like stink on sh!t. I guess the Bush fanbois are too afraid that the only reason Bush might have been able to put himself in for a Heart would have been dropping a keg on his foot. And I guess the Kerry choir doesn't want to say anything because.... well, probably because they nominated Kerry to begin with, even though he excites his core constituency about as much as getting a root canal.

 

[burnedout]

I saw this piece earlier in the day but decided against posting. Anyway, here's my 2 cents:

I agree with much of what you say about medals as a huge point of honor among military folk. Let me add military folks of our generation.

I'm just speculating, but as committed as Admiral Boorda was to the USN for all of those years, he may have felt that he betrayed the honor and dignity of the uniform when the story hit the media. To avoid embarrassing the service and himself, he chose another route. Maybe UQ has more insight. At any rate, Admiral Boorda supposedly improperly wore a valorous device.

Moving on to the Purple Heart. You know as well as I do that this is one award no one really wants. While over in the desert in '91, the joke was that if a soldier received the PH, then that soldier was either doing something he wasn't supposed to be doing in a firefight or engagement, or his luck ran out. This was a joke, mind you, and shouldn't in any way take away from the significance of the award itself.

Kerry generated a tremendous amount of animosity and contempt with vets of his generation for his actions after his service. Fifteen years ago, if you would have asked me what I thought of Kerry's post-military actions, I would have stated that he should go straight to hell without passing go. Today, however, I feel differently about his intentions during that particular time.

The awards system in the military isn't perfect. From my understanding, USMC is the only branch that gets it right. Some awards are indeed a bit of a stretch. For example, soldiers in my platoon received the PH for a friendly fire incident. Officers in my battalion, who served in S3 or S4, received Bronze Stars for service while we were in the Gulf although they never saw a firefight. Sure, they moved the TOC but they didn't handle EPWs or clear bunkers or participate in engagements. I never fully agreed with Lt. Cols receiving a Legion of Merit for successful command in peacetime while a Bn or Bde CSM receives a Meritorious Service Medal.

Vietnam was a different animal than what you or I experienced. The mentality was different, the command climate was different and the generation was different. Although I'm very gratious for the training and mentoring the older 'Nam vets provided me, the only negative thing I can say about them is that they came into being from another generation, under different circumstances.

In conclusion, I think the press is nitpicking on this occasion just like they nitpicked with GWB's service in the National Guard.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: glenn1
wow, only one response... i figured both sides would jump on this like stink on sh!t. I guess the Bush fanbois are too afraid that the only reason Bush might have been able to put himself in for a Heart would have been dropping a keg on his foot. And I guess the Kerry choir doesn't want to say anything because.... well, probably because they nominated Kerry to begin with, even though he excites his core constituency about as much as getting a root canal.

this veteran will not be voting for kerry, a self serving jerk that gets scrateches and then nominates HIMSELF for medals afterwards makes him a hero to teh average dumb civilian than does not know %#$ about the military, but here at Fort Hood the poeple that will be voting for him can counted on one hand.

i talked to one non-com just back from iraq and he told me that if he "got a purple heart for every scratch in combat he would have twenty or more",

i have talked to literally hundreds of soldiers from both 4th ID and 1st Cav, i have not yet met a single one who will be voting for kerry.

*edit*

corrrection i did meet one, but after reading the VVAK site he said "that S.O.B." he changed his mind.

 

[Steveo33]

Originally posted by: glenn1
wow, only one response... i figured both sides would jump on this like stink on sh!t. I guess the Bush fanbois are too afraid that the only reason Bush might have been able to put himself in for a Heart would have been dropping a keg on his foot. And I guess the Kerry choir doesn't want to say anything because.... well, probably because they nominated Kerry to begin with, even though he excites his core constituency about as much as getting a root canal.

Just curious, haven't you made up your mind?

 

[glenn1]

Just curious, haven't you made up your mind?

On Bush vs. Kerry? No, I'm not particularly thrilled with either candidate and have a hard time imagining that I'd be able to pull the lever for either one. If you put a gun to my head and forced me to pick one I'd probably lean Kerry at the moment, but I'm not excited by the prospect of a Kerry Presidency, no.

 

[DoubleL]

Veitnam was a different animal than what you or I experienced. The mentality was different, the command climate was different and the generation was different. Although I'm very gratious for the training and mentoring the older 'Nam vets provided me, the only negative thing I can say about them is that they came into being from another generation, under different circumstances.

In conclusion, I think the press is nitpicking on this occasion just like they nitpicked with GWB's service in the National Guard.

Man, Being from another generation and under different circumstances is a negative, LOL just hang in there and you will be in the same boat, Time waits for no one, As for the purple hearts go I am sure about everyone know what was going on with that by now, We didn't care about medals in Nam we were there to do a job, I know guys that lost arms and legs that never got a purple heart and could care less, They were never going to run for office, I was hurt 3 times in combat and shot 2 times and never got a purple heart over there and I could care less, God Bless the troops

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: DoubleL
Veitnam was a different animal than what you or I experienced. The mentality was different, the command climate was different and the generation was different. Although I'm very gratious for the training and mentoring the older 'Nam vets provided me, the only negative thing I can say about them is that they came into being from another generation, under different circumstances.

In conclusion, I think the press is nitpicking on this occasion just like they nitpicked with GWB's service in the National Guard.

Man, Being from another generation and under different circumstances is a negative, LOL just hang in there and you will be in the same boat, Time waits for no one, As for the purple hearts go I am sure about everyone know what was going on with that by now, We didn't care about medals in Nam we were there to do a job, I know guys that lost arms and legs that never got a purple heart and could care less, They were never going to run for office, I was hurt 3 times in combat and shot 2 times and never got a purple heart over there and I could care less, God Bless the troops

I have tons of respect for you and your fellow vets. I can not imagine myself being in a situation like that. I would probably curl up into a ball and hide in the bushes for months on end. You people are the true heros, and I can't begin to express my grattitude and respect.
I understand what you are saying, and am not sure if you support Kerry or not, but the fuss that is being made is that Kerry did care about medals. You people were out there putting your butts on the line and deserving true recognition, yet this guy gets a few scratches, nominates himself for medals, goes home early and now wants to be recognized as a war hero. He is NOT a war hero. He deserves recognition for going and for what he did do, but he pales in comparison to you and your buddies who stuck it out. You (and your buddies) are the true heros. Kerry was just there.

 

[Gaard]

I was hurt 3 times in combat and shot 2 times and never got a purple heart over there

why not?

 

[glenn1]

I understand what you are saying, and am not sure if you support Kerry or not, but the fuss that is being made is that Kerry did care about medals. You people were out there putting your butts on the line and deserving true recognition, yet this guy gets a few scratches, nominates himself for medals, goes home early and now wants to be recognized as a war hero. He is NOT a war hero. He deserves recognition for going and for what he did do, but he pales in comparison to you and your buddies who stuck it out. You (and your buddies) are the true heros. Kerry was just there.

This is just my opinion, but I don't think we veterans are the heroes at all. The heroes are the ordinary American citizens, like the single mom struggling to raise her children; the person who works two jobs but still finds time to do charity work; the immigrant who risks life and limb to get here and then bust his ass to get his citizenship; the people doing their jobs, living their lives and paying their taxes. Those are the heroes, the guys in military uniform are just the guys who get paid to do the grunt work in exotic and not-so-trendy tourist destinations (like Iraq). So while the kind words are appreciated, they are better spoken to the guys like the NYC firefighters and such.

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: glenn1

I understand what you are saying, and am not sure if you support Kerry or not, but the fuss that is being made is that Kerry did care about medals. You people were out there putting your butts on the line and deserving true recognition, yet this guy gets a few scratches, nominates himself for medals, goes home early and now wants to be recognized as a war hero. He is NOT a war hero. He deserves recognition for going and for what he did do, but he pales in comparison to you and your buddies who stuck it out. You (and your buddies) are the true heros. Kerry was just there.

This is just my opinion, but I don't think we veterans are the heroes at all. The heroes are the ordinary American citizens, like the single mom struggling to raise her children; the person who works two jobs but still finds time to do charity work; the immigrant who risks life and limb to get here and then bust his ass to get his citizenship; the people doing their jobs, living their lives and paying their taxes. Those are the heroes, the guys in military uniform are just the guys who get paid to do the grunt work in exotic and not-so-trendy tourist destinations (like Iraq). So while the kind words are appreciated, they are better spoken to the guys like the NYC firefighters and such.

That's very modest of you, but I strongly disagree. While the people you mentioned are heros, they are not nearly as much as you people are. You people went through hell for us. That is amazing.

 

[girlgeek]

True heros always say they aren't. That's how we know who you are.

 

[glenn1]

True heros always say they aren't. That's how we know who you are.

LOL, you ought to tell my g/f and Mom that while I'm in the room, so I can hear them laughing their asses off after you say it

 

[TechJunkie95242]

Originally posted by: glenn1
Looks like one of his Purple Hearts might have been a bit of a stretch....

This is not an attempt to bash Kerry. He's demonstrated by his military service that he's an honorable man and he will do fine if elected President. However, being a military vet myself, I will simply point out that medals are a HUGE point of honor among military folk. Before you scoff at that, remember that Admiral Boorda, a 4-star Navy Admiral and the highest ranking officer in the US Navy, committed suicide when it was alleged that he was improperly wearing a "V" (for valor) device on one of his medals. (link for the historical story of Adm. Boorda)

Again, I'm not flaming Kerry, so don't shoot the messenger for posting the story.

It was shrapnel from a grenade, just remember why would he fake or wound himself or complain about a small wound to get a Purple Heart. After 3 Purple Hearts, after being wounded 3 times in battle you are sent home. If this is the case, why would he have volunteered for service? He is a war hero and a good man, unlike Bush who ran from the war, Kerry fought in it. If Bush is going to jump on this issue about Kerry, Kerry as one great answer for America.

Kerry " Where was Bush, I didn't see him fighting in the war, I fought in it, he didn't. When he ran off to the National Guard like a coward, he basically went AWOL to avoid Vietnam"

 

[maluckey]

TechJunkie95242

You answered your own question. Kerry ran away after faking or exagerating wounds to get out of Viet Nam. Bush wanted National Guard, in order to avoid the draft and stay out of Viet Nam.

I as a DAV, support the choice to fight or not to fight. But if you chose to fight, you should do so to the utmost of your abilities, or you risk the lives of your fellow soldiers. Kerry did not understand that, and that is why he is generally hated by Vets, especially combat Vets. Bush knew that he wasn't cut from the same cloth as his dad, so went to the Guard. He didn't endanger, preach against or cheapen his fellow soldiers as did Kerry.

I'm another Vet that the more I hear of Kerry, the sicker I get.

 

[Riprorin]

He's demonstrated by his military service that he's an honorable man and he will do fine if elected President.

That's quite a leap. What does his military service have to do with him being qualified to be president?

 

[zantac]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Gee...why didn't every soldier grab some metal and scratch themselves up three times? A free ticket home it seems.

I got a purple heart during vietnam for a shrapnel wound. Lemme tell you goddamn kids, that shlt does more damage than a bullet. Shrapnel broke my jaw, leg and nearly ripped my foot off the ankle. I get incensed whenever I see people make pathetic comments like this.

 

[arsbanned]

Kerry ran away after faking or exagerating wounds to get out of Viet Nam.

Bullshit.

What does his military service have to do with him being qualified to be president?

Well, take Bush for instance, who sipped lemonade with parasol twirling southern belles while men were dieing in 'Nam; it's more likely for him to cavalierly send people into harms way for reasons based on lies, since he never faced harm.
Get it?

 

[glenn1]

He's demonstrated by his military service that he's an honorable man and he will do fine if elected President.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's quite a leap. What does his military service have to do with him being qualified to be president?

It's not a leap I intended to take. Those were two seperate, discrete thoughts which should have been seperated by a comma or semicolon. I'll correct it now:

Edited Quote:

He's demonstrated by his military service that he's an honorable man.

He will do fine if elected President.

 

[DoubleL]

Chill out zantac, Both can be bad, I have had both but the bullet is what ended my life as I knew it, I also helped hold a guy that steped on a mine, A head and two arms, The worse part was he can't do it but what year was you there and what unit, You know to there is diff. wounds for Lt.;s and pfc's, Kerry's medals are not what upsets the vets I know, It is what he said about us when he came back, Some say Nam was a long time ago get over it, For me Nam will alway be yesterday, I will never forget the men that served with me and the ones that gave there life, As I said before when I was shot on LP they were three of us, We were over run, The guy that just got there that day was shot in the head, My friend got his leg took off, I was shot in the side and it hit my spine, He said lets get back and I told him to get back to camp, I couldn't move so I would hold them off as long as I could, He couldn't leave me to fihgt alone, He lost to much blood and died, He might have made it if he had left me but that was the way we were, I was hit again and it took out a lung, I couldn't breath for the blood coming out my mouth and noise, I keep fighting till I passed out as he did cause we had to hold them as lomg as we could so our men could be ready, I just say this to show what kind of men was there, Maybe I have said to much but I never seen one guy do anything to shame the US or his self and I seen a hell of a lot over there

 

[TechJunkie95242]

Originally posted by: maluckey
TechJunkie95242

You answered your own question. Kerry ran away after faking or exagerating wounds to get out of Viet Nam. Bush wanted National Guard, in order to avoid the draft and stay out of Viet Nam.

I as a DAV, support the choice to fight or not to fight. But if you chose to fight, you should do so to the utmost of your abilities, or you risk the lives of your fellow soldiers. Kerry did not understand that, and that is why he is generally hated by Vets, especially combat Vets. Bush knew that he wasn't cut from the same cloth as his dad, so went to the Guard. He didn't endanger, preach against or cheapen his fellow soldiers as did Kerry.

I'm another Vet that the more I hear of Kerry, the sicker I get.

The moment I wrote that sentence maluckey I knew that instance Bushies would say I answered my own question. He did fulfill his duties to the best of his abilities, how dare you even try to blemish that man's heoric acts during Vietnam, he got hit by shrapnel, so what, he got shot two other times I believe. Earning him 3 Purple hearts 1 Silverstar and a Bronzestar. How many lives did Bush save in the National Guard? NONE! He made this country weaker even then by ditching his post and going out for a brewsky. Kerry saved his fellow crewmans lives and how does that fall under the category of not fulfilling his duties? Maybe you should do some research on the man before you badmouthing him. He volunteered, he didn't hide, he didn't go AWOL. He fought valiantly and returned home in one piece fortunately.

I might have respected Bush if he fought and died in Vietnam... But I have no respect nor admiration for anything that warmonger's done.. He should be held in court for war crimes I am voting Kerry because I know we won't get a coward for a president.

You say most Vet's hate him.... Well then I guess most Vet's hate eachother because he wasn't the only vet that came forward and confessed to participating in and witnessing war crimes, such as execution style shooting, raping of Vietnamese women, blown up bodies, and limbs being ripped off, etc. . There were several thousand that supported Kerry and joined VVAW( Vietnam Vetrans Against the War).

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: zantac

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Gee...why didn't every soldier grab some metal and scratch themselves up three times? A free ticket home it seems.

I got a purple heart during vietnam for a shrapnel wound. Lemme tell you goddamn kids, that shlt does more damage than a bullet. Shrapnel broke my jaw, leg and nearly ripped my foot off the ankle. I get incensed whenever I see people make pathetic comments like this.

ouch.

however the fact is kerry was never wounded that bad, he even said so himself.

 

[TechJunkie95242]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: zantac

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
Gee...why didn't every soldier grab some metal and scratch themselves up three times? A free ticket home it seems.

I got a purple heart during vietnam for a shrapnel wound. Lemme tell you goddamn kids, that shlt does more damage than a bullet. Shrapnel broke my jaw, leg and nearly ripped my foot off the ankle. I get incensed whenever I see people make pathetic comments like this.

ouch.

however the fact is kerry was never wounded that bad, he even said so himself.

I have his biography he said that compared to other soldiers who lost limbs in the war.. He was shot twice I believe and grenade shrapnel the third time he was wounded.

 

[abracadabra1]

Originally posted by: XZeroII

Originally posted by: DoubleL
Veitnam was a different animal than what you or I experienced. The mentality was different, the command climate was different and the generation was different. Although I'm very gratious for the training and mentoring the older 'Nam vets provided me, the only negative thing I can say about them is that they came into being from another generation, under different circumstances.

In conclusion, I think the press is nitpicking on this occasion just like they nitpicked with GWB's service in the National Guard.

Man, Being from another generation and under different circumstances is a negative, LOL just hang in there and you will be in the same boat, Time waits for no one, As for the purple hearts go I am sure about everyone know what was going on with that by now, We didn't care about medals in Nam we were there to do a job, I know guys that lost arms and legs that never got a purple heart and could care less, They were never going to run for office, I was hurt 3 times in combat and shot 2 times and never got a purple heart over there and I could care less, God Bless the troops

I have tons of respect for you and your fellow vets. I can not imagine myself being in a situation like that. I would probably curl up into a ball and hide in the bushes for months on end. You people are the true heros, and I can't begin to express my grattitude and respect.
I understand what you are saying, and am not sure if you support Kerry or not, but the fuss that is being made is that Kerry did care about medals. You people were out there putting your butts on the line and deserving true recognition, yet this guy gets a few scratches, nominates himself for medals, goes home early and now wants to be recognized as a war hero. He is NOT a war hero. He deserves recognition for going and for what he did do, but he pales in comparison to you and your buddies who stuck it out. You (and your buddies) are the true heros. Kerry was just there.

Kerry was just there?? Are you fscking kidding me?

He was awarded a Bronze star for christ's sake...oh yeah, AND a silver star. Do you think a man that voluntarily signs up for the service, serves honorably and is decorated, chooses to get wounded 3 times just to go home? Get the fsck out of here...not a chance in hell. As evinced by his strong anti-war footing upon returning to the United States, Kerry likely returned under the '3-purple hearts and you're home' clause because of adament disagreements with the execution of the war in Vietnam. Kerry chose to become a Swift boat commander when he had the option of staying aboard large Navy vessels far-removed from the swamply marshland of Vietnam.

Citation:
For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engaged in armed conflict with Viet Cong insurgents in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam, on 28 February 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry was serving as Officer in Charge of Patrol Craft Fast 94 and Officer in Tactical Command of a three-boat mission. As the force approached the target area on the narrow Dong Cung River, all units came under intense automatic weapons and small arms fire from an entrenched enemy force less than fifty-feet away. Unhesitatingly, Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry ordered his boat to attack as all units opened fire and beached directly in front of the enemy ambushers. The daring and courageous tactic surprised the enemy and succeeded in routing a score of enemy soldiers. The PCF gunners captured many enemy weapons in the battle that followed. On a request from U.S. Army advisors ashore, Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry ordered PCFs 94 and 23 further up river to suppress enemy sniper fire. After proceeding approximately eight hundred yards, the boats again were taken under fire from a heavily foliated area and B-40 rocket exploded close aboard PCF-94; with utter disregard for his own safety and the enemy rockets, he again ordered a charge on the enemy, beached his boat only ten feet from the VC rocket position, and personally led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy. Upon sweeping the area an immediate search uncovered an enemy rest and supply area which was destroyed. The extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in attacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire were responsible for the highly successful mission. His actions were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service.

Citation:
For heroic achievement while serving with Coastal Division ELEVEN engaged in armed conflict with Viet Cong communist aggressors in An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam, on 13 March 1969. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry was serving as Officer in Charge of Patrol Craft Fast 94, one of five boats conducting a SEA Lords operation in the Bay Hap River. While exiting the river, a mine detonated under another Inshore Patrol Craft and almost simultaneously, another mine detonated wounding Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry in the right arm. In addition, all units began receiving small arms and automatic weapons fire from the river banks. When Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry discovered he had a man overboard, he returned upriver to assist. The man in the water was receiving sniper fire from both banks. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry directed his gunners to provide suppressing fire, while from an exposed position on the bow, his arm bleeding and in pain and with disregard for his safety, he pulled the man aboard. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry then directed his boat to return and assist the other damaged boat to safety. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry?s calmness, professionalism and great personal courage under fire were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service. Lieutenant (junior grade) Kerry is authorized to wear the Combat ?V?.

You may not like John Kerry and you may not vote for him come November, but he is part of that generation of which you should respect, and deservingly so.