A Plea for Sanity - 377 TONS Not Stolen *Before* Troops Arrived

[scoobydoobydoo]

EDIT: See post below.

 

[AutomaticErik]

Yet another strike against our oh so wonderful republican administration. Wish I still had room on the wall to add another tally.

 

[LTC8K6]

* After the invasion: The Pentagon said Monday that "coalition forces were present in the vicinity at various times during and after major combat operations. The forces searched 32 bunkers and 87 other buildings at the facility, but found no indicators of WMD (weapons of mass destruction). While some explosive material was discovered, none of it carried IAEA seals.

That matches Miklaszewski's story. There was no large cache of IAEA sealed RDX or HMX at AlQaKaa when U.S. forces reached it in early April.

 

[LTC8K6]

AutomaticErik, it appears to be a strike against the NYT and Kerry/Edwards.

 

[scoobydoobydoo]

This is interesting, too (lots of links to support on the site to support these assertations):

SOURCE: Talking Points Memo - So which is it?

"The Iraqi interim government says that the explosives at al Qa Qaa went missing some time after April 9th 2003 because of "the theft and looting of the governmental installations due to lack of security."

(Remember, Baghdad fell on April 9th, so presumably that's a marker denoting simply that it happened at some point after the fall of the old regime.)

Today, Pentagon spokesman Larry Di Rita suggested that the weapons may have been taken from al Qa Qaa in the final days of the old regime or in fact during the war.

Remember, the IAEA inspected the munitions in January 2003 and then returned to the site and saw that the seals were in place in March, just a week or so before the war started. So Di Rita is claiming that the explosives were taken away in a two or three week period in late March of very early April 2003. If Drudge is to be trusted (yes, yes, I know), NBC will be running with some version of this storyline.

But there's another version of events.

A Pentagon "official who monitors developments in Iraq" told the Associated Press today that "US-led coalition troops had searched Al-Qaqaa in the immediate aftermath of the March 2003 invasion and confirmed that the explosives, which had been under IAEA seal since 1991, were intact."

That of course would mean that the explosives were not removed from the facility until some point after the war. And that would be in line with what the Iraqis two weeks ago told the IAEA.

Let's review for a moment. We have a dispute here about a window of time covering two to four weeks, say roughly from March 10th to April 10th 2003 at the longest. But it's an important few weeks because it was over this span of time that the region went from the control of Saddam's government to the US military.

If the Di Rita hypothesis rests on the claim that the first US troops that visited al Qa Qaa found that the explosives had already been stolen or looted or otherwise secreted away. (He has, in fact, already said this.) And that would mean that the US government has known the explosives were missing for some eighteen months.

The problem is that the White House has spent the entire day claiming that they knew nothing about this until ten days ago, October 15th. Scott McClellan said this repeatedly during his gaggle with reporters this morning. Indeed, he went on to say the following: "Now [i.e., after the notification on October 15th], the Pentagon, upon learning of this, directed the multinational forces and the Iraqi survey group to look into this matter, and that's what they are currently doing."

So McClellan says that the Pentagon only just learned about this. And that's why they only now assigned the Iraq Survey Group to examine what happened at al Qa Qaa.

But Di Rita says that the US government has known about it for 18 months.

So which is it?

They've known about it since just after the war and kept it a secret? Or they just found out about it ten days ago and now they're on the case?"

-----

My head is starting to hurt.

 

[ciba]

I'm just curious as to what percentage of munitions the US was supposed to secure (in the minds of you Kerry fanatics). 100% is a completely unreasonable estimate, but you're saying 99.9% is not enough.

 

[LTC8K6]

Yes, the IAEA has known about the missing explosives for nearly 2 years. I wonder why they are shouting about them now?

IAEA report Jan 03. HMX in question. No mention of RDX or PETN, etc. 53 & 54

 

[scoobydoobydoo]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Yes, the IAEA has known about the missing explosives for nearly 2 years. I wonder why they are shouting about them now?

Did you read my previous post? They'd better come up with a good answer to this question:

"Has President Bush known about it since just after the war and kept it a secret? Or did he just found out about it ten days ago and now they're on the case?"

 

[EXman]

Screw the 377 tons of explosives anyone notice they have an unlimited supply of RPG's?

WTF!

I'm officially warning the IAEA to get their heads out of their asses

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6

* After the invasion: The Pentagon said Monday that "coalition forces were present in the vicinity at various times during and after major combat operations. The forces searched 32 bunkers and 87 other buildings at the facility, but found no indicators of WMD (weapons of mass destruction). While some explosive material was discovered, none of it carried IAEA seals.

That matches Miklaszewski's story. There was no large cache of IAEA sealed RDX or HMX at AlQaKaa when U.S. forces reached it in early April.

<ahem>

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,83252,00.html

For years, the al Qa Qaa site has raised the suspicions of weapons inspectors who believed the facilities could be converted for the production of missiles and chemical and nuclear weapons. It was visited repeatedly during the 1990s and during the last cycle of inspections -- between Nov. 27 and March 17 -- when U.N. experts went to the complex more than 10 times.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/

http://www.globalsecurity.org/...5-chem-readiness01.htm

April 05, 2003

Closer to Baghdad, troops at Iraq's largest military industrial complex found nerve agent antidotes, documents describing chemical warfare and a white powder that appeared to be used for explosives.

UN weapons inspectors went repeatedly to the vast al Qa Qaa complex, most recently on March 8. But they found nothing during spot visits to some of the 1,100 buildings at the site 40 kilometres south of Baghdad.

Col. John Peabody, engineer brigade commander of the 3rd Infantry Division, said troops found thousands of five-centimetre by 12-centimetre boxes, each containing three vials of white powder, together with documents written in Arabic that dealt with how to engage in chemical warfare.

A senior U.S. official familiar with initial testing said the powder was believed to be explosives. The finding would be consistent with the plant's stated production capabilities in the field of basic raw materials for explosives and propellants.

According to UN weapons inspectors, who spoke on condition of anonymity, the Iraqis filled warheads and artillery shells with explosives at the site and manufactured bomb casings there. The activities, for conventional weaponry, were allowed under UN resolutions. But the resolutions, passed after the 1991 Gulf War, ban Iraq from possessing chemical, biological and nuclear weapons and the long-range missiles to deliver them.

Peabody told an Associated Press reporter that troops at al Qa Qaa also discovered atropine, used to counter the effects of nerve agents, and 2-Pam chloride, which is used in combination with atropine in case of chemical attack.

 

[MidasKnight]

Originally posted by: Luck JF

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
the simple logistics of moving that kind of ordinance that quickly...

Kerry's been screaming about this all day LOL...

Kerry is ridiculous. I lose more and more respect for him every day.
Whatever makes the news that day automatically becomes Bush's fault.
:roll:
Flu Vaccine, Bush's Fault.
Missing explosives, Bush's fault.
Iraqi troops ambushed, Bush's fault.
That's just the last three days.
He makes me want to puke.

:thumbsup:

Not to mention the left wingers here who do the same time and again ... lol !

 

[assemblage]

Now that it's all a lie, I hope you changed your mind. It's a great reason not to vote for Kerry.

 

[SNC]

Today I've finally decided: I am voting for Kerry.

Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
me too
<-- conservative Republican --> conservative Democrat
will vote for kerry nov 2nd assuming i dont get disenfranchised
any true Republican would do the same

Do you guys really think any one believes either one of you?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: assemblage
Now that it's all a lie, I hope you changed your mind. It's a great reason not to vote for Kerry.

Guess you need to learn how to read a thread. It's NOT all a lie.

 

[bozack]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: assemblage
Now that it's all a lie, I hope you changed your mind. It's a great reason not to vote for Kerry.

Guess you need to learn how to read a thread. It's NOT all a lie.

not a lie per say but the timeline is reportedly wrong and distorted to make the current admin look bad....wonder if they will say sorry...doubt it.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: assemblage
Now that it's all a lie, I hope you changed your mind. It's a great reason not to vote for Kerry.

Guess you need to learn how to read a thread. It's NOT all a lie.

LOL, now click your ruby slippers together &amp; repeat "There were no WMD, there were no WMD." You'll fall back into your trance &amp; find a happy place...

The media's going to spin this on the Kerry campaign as jumping the gun.

CNN has already started.

I understand Ashlee Simpson's already working on the apology for Kerry

So far she's got:

"It was my staffer's fault"
"It was NBC's fault"
"It was because the WMD's made my knee jerk"

 

[LTC8K6]

There is no question that there was a cache of regular explosives at AlQaKaa, as the NBC story correctly reports. There is a cache of explosives and munitions just about anywhere you'd care to throw a dart at a map of Iraq.

There was no "300-400" tons of HMX/RDX at AlQaKaa, and the U.S. military did not allow such to disappear.

The old Fox news story helps the Bush admin, imo. It is now abundantly clear that the U.S military was at AlQaKaa promptly, as reported by several sources now.

 

[assemblage]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: assemblage
Now that it's all a lie, I hope you changed your mind. It's a great reason not to vote for Kerry.

Guess you need to learn how to read a thread. It's NOT all a lie.

I guess you need to learn how to read the news. It's on the radio and the TV if reading is a difficulty. It IS all a lie.

 

[LTC8K6]

It no longer matters. There are serious doubts about the claims made by the NYT regarding this.

The doubts about the story are now public, so whatever help the NYT &amp; CBS thought this would give Kerry is now gone. The attempted influence has been countered.

 

[Gusty987]

Let's not miss the point...those weapons, regardless of when they were moved, are still NOT in U.S. possesion and could very well be in the hands of the insurgents/bad guys. I think that is the point, and that is what John Kerry was bashing Bush about.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: Gusty987
Let's not miss the point...those weapons, regardless of when they were moved, are still NOT in U.S. possesion and could very well be in the hands of the insurgents/bad guys. I think that is the point, and that is what John Kerry was bashing Bush about.

So we should have invaded earlier?

WTF were the UN inspectors doing leaving this stuff intact? Oh yeah, we'll leave this dual use stuff in Saddam's posession so he can blow up a freaking mountain range?

After this story broke, I'm hearing Saddam had munitions &amp; explosives stashed all over Iraq.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Man, the (non-existent ) liberal side of the MSM has been sucking some air as of late. I certainly have no love for that slanted rag that calls itself the NY Times though, so I won't hide the fact that I am taking great pleasure in the rogering they're receiving from their latest partisan fiasco.

/me issues a loud Bronx cheer for the NY Times

 

[BBond]

You fools. The stockpiles were under the control of the IAEA before Bush forced them to leave Iraq. The miserable failure of the Bush administration to plan for the aftermath of the invasion is responsible for the looting that followed. Bush chose to believe a known criminal, Ahmed Chalabi, and Donald Rumsfeld, rather than the Pentagon Joint Chiefs. Bush's invasion of Iraq was, as we all know, not only baseless, but completely unprepared for its aftermath.

Now, instead of tossing flowers as the Bush administration told us they would, the Iraqis are tossing high density explosives. And all due to the failure of Bush to heed the warnings of the IAEA, his Joint Chiefs, and the governments of most of the major industrialized nations of the world. Bush rushed into Iraq unprepared and now we are witnessing the results of his reckless, unnecessary, ill-planned invasion.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: BBond
You fools. The stockpiles were under the control of the IAEA before Bush forced them to leave Iraq. The miserable failure of the Bush administration to plan for the aftermath of the invasion is responsible for the looting that followed. Bush chose to believe a known criminal, Ahmed Chalabi, and Donald Rumsfeld, rather than the Pentagon Joint Chiefs. Bush's invasion of Iraq was, as we all know, not only baseless, but completely unprepared for its aftermath.

Now, instead of tossing flowers as the Bush administration told us they would, the Iraqis are tossing high density explosives. And all due to the failure of Bush to heed the warnings of the IAEA, his Joint Chiefs, and the governments of most of the major industrialized nations of the world. Bush rushed into Iraq unprepared and now we are witnessing the results of his reckless, unnecessary, ill-planned invasion.

You don't know when the stockpiles were moved. Saddam may have had them moved, possibly trucked to Syria, prior to the invasion. You don't even know for a fact that the insurgents have these explosives in their possession, but that sure doesn't stop you from issuing highly speculative fearmongering remarks.

And you're calling others "fools." How ironic. :roll:

 

[LTC8K6]

It's clear from the IAEA's own report of Jan 03 that the explosives were not in their control. No doubt
about it. Iraq had already broken the seals and used some of the HMX and moved some.

It is also abundantly clear that U.S. forces were at AlQaKaa as soon as it was possible to be there.

Everyone should be angry with the NYT, no matter what candidate you support. The NYT deceived everyone with this sham of a story. Both the Bush and Kerry camps looked a bit foolish trying to deal with this.