A Nietzsche-like question: Since hierarchies exist everywhere in nature...

[nihil]

<<

<< But you could also say that mass consumption, the bases of capitalism, defies nature a lot as well. No other system in nature consumes more than it needs (that I know of). >>

Put algae in a pond without any fish and watch what will happen. >>



i think he's trying to prove the point of consuming to fit basic needs vs. conspicuous consumption.

 

[DioCassius]

Yeah, they did what Sir Fredrick said. (Don't ask how they did it so fast...it was a pretty small pond) I think Sir Fredrick has a point about reproduction and all, and I also think adding algae to a pond isn't actually natural. Although I do know that a species will exhaust an enivornment from time to time, but in that case it's not really over-consumption, since each individual will just take what it needs. Also, the environment will come into equalibrium eventually.

 

[Random Variable]

The algae would eventually suffocate in their own feces. That's why a predator/prey (master/slave) relationship is so important.

 

[Red Dawn]

Ray Nietzsche was a great Linebacker for the Pack.

 

[nihil]

<< Ray Nietzsche was a great Linebacker for the Pack. >>



hahahhah.

 

[Random Variable]

I can't understand why people think that all animal life understand the virtue of temperance.

EDIT: Given the unfettered opportunity, animals (humans included) will do everything in excess.

 

[Squisher]

That's a faulty argument to say that true communism leads to a lack of motivation.


Oh, really? What is your motivation? The greater good of us all? That notion is lost on the masses.


I know. I work in a union shop.

 

[Random Variable]

<< That's a faulty argument to say that true communism leads to a lack of motivation.


Oh, really? What is your motivation? The greater good of us all? That notion is lost on the masses.


I know. I work in a union shop. >>


In a communist state the people own everything and they make all the rules.

 

[Squisher]

Can you give me an example of a communistic state whose people exhibit or exhibitted a high level of motivation?

 

[Random Variable]

<< Can you give me an example of a communistic state whose people exhibit or exhibitted a high level of motivation? >>


There has never been a communist state, despite what some people like to believe.

 

[Squisher]

So, can you give an example of a communist social unit that has exhibitted highly motivated members?

 

[Random Variable]

<< So, can you give an example of a communist social unit that has exhibitted highly motivated members? >>


the guild system of medieval Europe

 

[Squisher]

<<

<< So, can you give an example of a communist social unit that has exhibitted highly motivated members? >>


the guild system of medieval Europe >>



I must look into the vast accomplishments of the guild in which their members were driven to excel so. My only knowledge of medieval European is of its stagnation in the area of accomplishments and innovation.

 

[beatniks3]

what exactly is a "strutures" ? Ahhh, structures?

This is an odd thread even for off topic. without even getting into 'communism' and 'socialism,' I wonder why no one has even spoken about these supposed hierarchies in nature? hierarchy according to Merriam-Webster, is "a graded or ranked series," and a series implies an imposed division. Humans invent both the structure and hierarchy into nature...so there is no use claiming that socialism and/or communism affirms or denies something like a structure in nature...

 

[jjones]

<<

<< So, can you give an example of a communist social unit that has exhibitted highly motivated members? >>


the guild system of medieval Europe >>


This is lost on me. Admittedly, I know little of the guild system but how does communism afford the Master/Apprentice relationship when the apprentice is bound to the master. This seems to go against the tenets of communism.

 

[Random Variable]

<< This is an odd thread even for off topic. without even getting into 'communism' and 'socialism,' I wonder why no one has even spoken about these supposed hierarchies in nature? hierarchy according to Merriam-Webster, is "a graded or ranked series," and a series implies an imposed division. Humans invent both the structure and hierarchy into nature...so there is no use claiming that socialism and/or communism affirms or denies something like a structure in nature... >>

You're not too bright, are you?

 

[Random Variable]

<<

<<

<< So, can you give an example of a communist social unit that has exhibitted highly motivated members? >>


the guild system of medieval Europe >>


This is lost on me. Admittedly, I know little of the guild system but how does communism afford the Master/Apprentice relationship when the apprentice is bound to the master. This seems to go against the tenets of communism. >>

Marx praised the guild system because in such a system no excess of goods is produced and everybody individual has important role to play. And the apprentice relationship is not exactly a slave relationship.

 

[Random Variable]

<<

<<

<< So, can you give an example of a communist social unit that has exhibitted highly motivated members? >>


the guild system of medieval Europe >>



I must look into the vast accomplishments of the guild in which their members were driven to excel so. My only knowledge of medieval European is of its stagnation in the area of accomplishments and innovation. >>

The closed guild societies were very successful. You must be thinking of the feudal lord system or something.

 

[beatniks3]

<<

<< This is an odd thread even for off topic. without even getting into 'communism' and 'socialism,' I wonder why no one has even spoken about these supposed hierarchies in nature? hierarchy according to Merriam-Webster, is "a graded or ranked series," and a series implies an imposed division. Humans invent both the structure and hierarchy into nature...so there is no use claiming that socialism and/or communism affirms or denies something like a structure in nature... >>

You're not too bright, are you? >>



nice use of 'selective' quoting....I believe that i corrected your spelling as well, but whatever. Did you want me to respond to your bright question 'philosophically'? kinda like 'i think therefore i spam' or something? I could make it sound more official by throwing around some dead guys names (Nietzsche, Marx, etc.) and making completely silly statements about the animal world ("I can't understand why people think that all animal life understand the virtue of temperance.") while conveying an air of knowledge (reeks like a backed up septic tank). Is that how this works for you, Vespasian? Well, no thanks...thankfully I can resort back to sarcasim...

//sarcasim// Socialism and Communism can be easily combined to form 'socialistic/communist ' and our study today will look at the inherent structures of the natural world in comparision to this combination...blah blah blah...i just don't get why ALL people are ALWAYS thinking that the animal world is able to understand the virtue of capitalism. It is a dog eat dog world, but that doesn't mean that the dogs understand why they eat each other. virtue in animals is very complicated to distinguish but you may notice it in your pet Roover when he gives you that 'look.' This look signals the process of the understanding the virtue of something...blah blah blah (but wait, there is more)...so to conclude 'socialistic/communist ' is inherently destructive because when you put alege in a pond without fish its population explodes//sarcasim//

oh and Vman, I've got some really bad self esteem probelms and the therapists really wish you could diss me more con·struc·tive·ly...thanks in advance duDe.

 

[BooneRebel]

<<

<< because the competition wouldnt be as harsh so compared to other countries they would be weak. Communism is perfect only if there is no outside influence >>


That's a faulty argument to say that true communism leads to a lack of motivation. >>

Hmmm. I think you might be confusing 'true' with 'perfect'. Let's look at an example of communism in the former Soviet Union:

Petre and Leo work in a factory making...uhm...tractor tires.
Petre is new on the job and is highly motivated. Today he makes 16 tires.
Leo has been around the block a time or two and only makes 4 tires. At the end of the day they each get 16 rubles.
Petre realizes that for every tire he makes he earns 1 ruble while Leo earns 4 rubles. This is where the lack of motivation sets in. As the (dimly-lit) lightbulb comes on, Petre realizes that the less he produces the more he is compensated per unit. Tomorrow, Petre won't work as hard and he'll get paid 4 rubles per tire. Communism shoots for the lowest common denominator and will bring everyone down to that level.

 

[Spooner]

<<

<<

<< This is an odd thread even for off topic. without even getting into 'communism' and 'socialism,' I wonder why no one has even spoken about these supposed hierarchies in nature? hierarchy according to Merriam-Webster, is "a graded or ranked series," and a series implies an imposed division. Humans invent both the structure and hierarchy into nature...so there is no use claiming that socialism and/or communism affirms or denies something like a structure in nature... >>

You're not too bright, are you? >>



nice use of 'selective' quoting....I believe that i corrected your spelling as well, but whatever. Did you want me to respond to your bright question 'philosophically'? kinda like 'i think therefore i spam' or something? I could make it sound more official by throwing around some dead guys names (Nietzsche, Marx, etc.) and making completely silly statements about the animal world ("I can't understand why people think that all animal life understand the virtue of temperance.") while conveying an air of knowledge (reeks like a backed up septic tank). Is that how this works for you, Vespasian? Well, no thanks...thankfully I can resort back to sarcasim...

//sarcasim// Socialism and Communism can be easily combined to form 'socialistic/communist ' and our study today will look at the inherent structures of the natural world in comparision to this combination...blah blah blah...i just don't get why ALL people are ALWAYS thinking that the animal world is able to understand the virtue of capitalism. It is a dog eat dog world, but that doesn't mean that the dogs understand why they eat each other. virtue in animals is very complicated to distinguish but you may notice it in your pet Roover when he gives you that 'look.' This look signals the process of the understanding the virtue of something...blah blah blah (but wait, there is more)...so to conclude 'socialistic/communist ' is inherently destructive because when you put alege in a pond without fish its population explodes//sarcasim//

oh and Vman, I've got some really bad self esteem probelms and the therapists really wish you could diss me more con·struc·tive·ly...thanks in advance duDe. >>


This is entirely too amusing. I think he's got you here, vespasian

 

[shifrbv]

Petre and Leo work in a factory making...uhm...tractor tires.
Petre is new on the job and is highly motivated. Today he makes 16 tires.
Leo has been around the block a time or two and only makes 4 tires. At the end of the day they each get 16 rubles.
Petre realizes that for every tire he makes he earns 1 ruble while Leo earns 4 rubles. This is where the lack of motivation sets in. As the (dimly-lit) lightbulb comes on, Petre realizes that the less he produces the more he is compensated per unit. Tomorrow, Petre won't work as hard and he'll get paid 4 rubles per tire. Communism shoots for the lowest common denominator and will bring everyone down to that level.

Interesting example. Only problem, it didn't work that way. Russia had just as many incentive programs as they have (or used to have) here in the US. For example, my dad sells so many insurance policies per month, he can get a bonus of a cruise to the Carribean. In Russia, you accomplish a goal defined by the state, such as developing and producing a new weapons system, being a sucessful team member, and you become employee of the month and spend a summer holiday on the beaches of the Black Sea in the company-owned resort.

Human nature is still human nature no matter what system you have. Ask the Chinese. They have the same sort of thing.

 

[Random Variable]

<< This is entirely too amusing. I think he's got you here, vespasian >>

It's too bad that he has no idea what he's talking about.

 

[Random Variable]

And how was the former Soviet Union an example of a communist state when there was an extremely powerful central government?

 

[BooneRebel]

<< Petre and Leo work in a factory making...uhm...tractor tires.
Petre is new on the job and is highly motivated. Today he makes 16 tires.
Leo has been around the block a time or two and only makes 4 tires. At the end of the day they each get 16 rubles.
Petre realizes that for every tire he makes he earns 1 ruble while Leo earns 4 rubles. This is where the lack of motivation sets in. As the (dimly-lit) lightbulb comes on, Petre realizes that the less he produces the more he is compensated per unit. Tomorrow, Petre won't work as hard and he'll get paid 4 rubles per tire. Communism shoots for the lowest common denominator and will bring everyone down to that level.

Interesting example. Only problem, it didn't work that way. Russia had just as many incentive programs as they have (or used to have) here in the US. For example, my dad sells so many insurance policies per month, he can get a bonus of a cruise to the Carribean. In Russia, you accomplish a goal defined by the state, such as developing and producing a new weapons system, being a sucessful team member, and you become employee of the month and spend a summer holiday on the beaches of the Black Sea in the company-owned resort.

Human nature is still human nature no matter what system you have. Ask the Chinese. They have the same sort of thing. >>

If you reward individual accomplishments then it is no longer true communism. Obviously there are external influences, but if you look at it as a closed society (a union, minimum wage, etc.), where there is a fixed compensation spread equally among workers, then the unscrupolous among the group will produce the bare minimum requirement in order to get by. This will influence the rest of the population to work at the same level. There may still be a small percentage that continue to give "110%" as they look out for the benefits of the whole, but in this closed environment the net product will be less than a capitalist system where compensation more readily scales to meet output.