A nice little video, our capitalism in action

[WhipperSnapper]

There is a recession because people who couldn't afford houses bought houses and Democrats fought to make sure everyone was eligible for a zero down, interest only, on a house way out of their budget.

It's not just the housing crisis that caused the recession. That's mostly just a cover story to prevent the sheeple from identifying the real problem.

The real problem is called Global Labor Arbitrage. Basically, we have merged our labor market with that of the impoverished labor markets overseas and supply-and-demand (of and for) labor forces thus dictate lower wages and a lower standard of living. Basically, our politicians have destroyed our nation's economy by allowing millions of jobs to get outsourced, by allowing Americans to be displaced by H-1B and L-1 visas, and by allowing mass immigration, both legal and illegal.

The job losses and wage decreases caused by Global Labor Arbitrage have contributed to the housing crisis in that unemployed people and people earning poverty-wages cannot afford to purchase houses.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

It's funny how an observation of reality can be twisted into "lameness, and an endorsement of callous greed." He is simply pointing out the reality of the situation. Sorry if it doesn't fit your agenda, but there it is. Perhaps it's time to conform your agenda to reality rather than trying to twist reality to suit your agenda.

That may be so, but you have to ask, "Why is so much labor available relative to jobs that supply-and-demand dictates such low wages?" Is it possible that certain political policies may result in artificially high supplies of labor relative to the demand for labor? Is it possible that one or both of our political parties supports "callous greed" in those regards?

 

[charrison]

Of course your job is more then pushing a couple of buttons (although I know some are) and digging a hole is a lot more then 15 minutes of shovel training.

I think his point is that anyone can operate a shovel. Yes a newbie on the job is not going to be as productive as someone who have been doing it a while. Productivity with a shovel comes more from stamina than know how to use the tool. Most people can develop the stamina needed to do that.

 

[StageLeft]

Like I said, I've put in a lot of time on a shovel and know my guy can out dig me anytime
You take your newbie and give him 15 minutes of your shovel training.
I'll take my guy and we'll get them to dig our holes at min wage
I know my guy is not going to cost me a 1/10th of what your guy is going to cost you.
Now lets take my guy and you show him what buttons you push during your day at work.
My guy is probably going to be able to push those same buttons the next day.
You see where I'm gong here?

Of course your job is more then pushing a couple of buttons (although I know some are) and digging a hole is a lot more then 15 minutes of shovel training.

That is a little silly. A high school dropout can be taught to dig a hole or do low-end menial labor in no time at all. It would quite literally take him years to be able to do a lot of white collar jobs. For one thing, he probably can't write for sh*t, so that is one area that would take a long time to polish. And that's really just a precursor and doesn't begin to get into the specificity of a position like finance or engineering.

I had a job years ago, just one day long, that was shoveling. It sucked and I didn't make squat but the training for it was all of 30 seconds--"Move this dirt from here to there". See if an IT department can grab some random joe off the street with no experience and expect him to add value with a minute of instructions. It's this time-to-knowledge & experience that is of value. If my job could be replaced by a summer intern at $10/hour I'd be scared sh*tless, but that is precisely what most of these kinds of manufacturing positions are like. They can be replaced immediately by a guy off the street.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

What the CEO makes has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on what the average worker should make you stupid commie.

One of the big issues is whether or not the CEOs are earning what they truly deserve or whether our society is structured in some sort of a way such that they are earning far, far more than what they deserve.

For example, if a great many MBAs could do just as good of a job as many CEOs yet happily do it for a mere pittance of $500,000/year, is it possible that many CEOs are thus overpaid? Are CEOs whose companies lose value overpaid?

CEO compensation as it stands today is obscene and is a reflection of some sort of huge inefficiency in the CEO market. Executive compensation needs to be scaled down dramatically for the good of shareholders and our society at large (allowing prices to decrease perhaps) and should be based somewhat on long-term performance.

 

[Orignal Earl]

I think his point is that anyone can operate a shovel. Yes a newbie on the job is not going to be as productive as someone who have been doing it a while. Productivity with a shovel comes more from stamina than know how to use the tool. Most people can develop the stamina needed to do that.

No your wrong, like I said before, my guy can dig the hole better faster and without as much sweat involved.
Go out in your backyard and find a place with some nice clay, I want a hole 10 feet long, 3 feet deep by 1 foot across with a slope of a 1/4 inch every 6 inches.
While your figuring how to stand in your started trench and angle your shovel, my guy is done with the hole.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I'm sorry to rant but you really need to get something through your soft heads.

Michael Moore was on Anderson Cooper talking about the Mosque among other things a couple of days ago and he started ranting about "economic justice" and how how doesn't understand why we can't have an economic system that works for everyone.

Now I realize that the words "economic justice" probably gives you commies a puddle in your pants but you need to stop and realize what he is REALLY saying.


What he is REALLY saying is, "I don't see why we can't come up with an economic system where everyone else can do as well as I have."

What he is REALLY not saying is, "I'm willing to give up every bit of wealth that I do not need so that others can live a better life."

I didn't hear what he said, but from what you describe, I suspect that what he's really saying, is: "We need to restructure our nation's economy so that we produce more wealth and so that that wealth is more evenly distributed as opposed to the top 10% owning the vast majority of the wealth."

 

[Deudalus]

I didn't hear what he said, but from what you describe, I suspect that what he's really saying, is: "We need to restructure our nation's economy so that we produce more wealth and so that that wealth is more evenly distributed as opposed to the top 10% owning the vast majority of the wealth."

And how do you suggest we do that?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

2) This guy realized how much shoveling actually sucks, realized he didn't have to do it, and went inside, poured himself a jack and coke, and then lounged on his couch watching TV, occasionally glancing outside to the guys without degrees thinking how glad he was to be inside and not outside digging dirt?

I've got news for you. College degrees are a penny-a-dozen today. Having a college degree today doesn't make you particularly unique or particularly skilled (relative to the general populace) as it used to.

It might be more accurate to say:

"As he lounged, he took for granted the family connections he had which allowed him to find a job in his field after he graduated from college."

or

"As he lounged, he took for granted the fact that he graduated from college decades ago before everyone went to college and was thus able to get established in his field and gain marketable experience as opposed to some of the shovel wielders who had advanced degrees."

or

"As he lounged, he took for granted his god-given charisma and people skills that allowed him to talk his way into jobs in the field he trained for."

or

"As he lounged, he took for granted how fortunate he was to have majored in a field (or to have the god-given aptitude to major in a field) where graduates would be in high demand and where the jobs wouldn't be sent off to India or filled by foreigners on H-1B and L-1 visas."

 

[Orignal Earl]

That is a little silly. A high school dropout can be taught to dig a hole or do low-end menial labor in no time at all. It would quite literally take him years to be able to do a lot of white collar jobs. For one thing, he probably can't write for sh*t, so that is one area that would take a long time to polish. And that's really just a precursor and doesn't begin to get into the specificity of a position like finance or engineering.

I had a job years ago, just one day long, that was shoveling. It sucked and I didn't make squat but the training for it was all of 30 seconds--"Move this dirt from here to there". See if an IT department can grab some random joe off the street with no experience and expect him to add value with a minute of instructions. It's this time-to-knowledge & experience that is of value. If my job could be replaced by a summer intern at $10/hour I'd be scared sh*tless, but that is precisely what most of these kinds of manufacturing positions are like. They can be replaced immediately by a guy off the street.

Well, what can I say, I guess I'm not getting my point across.
I already said I know your job was more then pushing a couple of buttons, but that it sure looked easy enough.
Being in the business, I have watched a hundred men come and go who all thought the same way you do

 

[WhipperSnapper]

unfortunately, the "skill" of shoveling is not worth anything, hence making it a non-skill.
just like the "skill" of pulling a lever, or the "skill" of turning a wrench, or just about every other form of manual labor.

sure, a "skilled" shoveler is better than a newbie on his first attempt, but over the next 15 minutes of training and practice, there will be so little disparity between the 2 (barring any difference in physical size/strength of the individuals) that it's not worth it to pay the "skilled" laborer any more than the new guy.

One of the issues we need to address, as a society, is just what kind of standard of living someone who works 40 hours doing hard manual labor at an unskilled or low-skilled job should be able to expect. It seems like we would want such people to be able to have health care and to be able to afford a small house.

 

[Narmer]

Hey your lovable touchy feely Germans are also famous for building cars, knives, and other things that no one can really afford either if that makes you feel better 🙂

Apparently a lot of people can afford it because their economy is the fastest growing in the EU...

 

[ShawnD1]

Hey your lovable touchy feely Germans are also famous for building cars, knives, and other things that no one can really afford either if that makes you feel better 🙂

Germany is pretty resourceful. At the start of World War 1, Germany was the strongest economy in Europe. At the start of World War 2, Germany was the strongest economy in Europe. Even after the country had been completely destroyed and rebuilt from nothing, Germany today is still the strongest economy in Europe.

No your wrong, like I said before, my guy can dig the hole better faster and without as much sweat involved.
Go out in your backyard and find a place with some nice clay, I want a hole 10 feet long, 3 feet deep by 1 foot across with a slope of a 1/4 inch every 6 inches.
While your figuring how to stand in your started trench and angle your shovel, my guy is done with the hole.

This is why construction workers are paid remarkably well. When I got a summer job doing road construction, my wage was $18 per hour. When I worked as a drug chemist, I was only making about $16 per hour and it eventually went up to $17 after a few months. My brother's first mechanical engineering job started at $17 per hour.

Construction is more of a skilled trade. People who know how to use a shovel are very good at it. One thing we had to do often was to put down gravel and evenly spread it around with a shovel. Anyone can make it even, but the experienced guys could do it while making very wide movements with the shovel, evening large areas at a time.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

well, good for him. you go out and become a CEO yourself and you can enjoy the same privileges.

Much of that involves being born into the right family with the kind of connections needed to set you up in that kind of a position. It also helps if they can send you to prep school and get you into Yale, etc.

the CEO, higher level execs, bankers, all make a shit ton more than i do. I have not once complained because i understand that they serve a different role and provide specialized services that i cannot perform.

They're not as amazingly skilled and talented as what many of the free market dogmatist sheeple want to believe. In fact we have a huge oversupply of MBAs in our society and a great many of them could be trained or could learn to do what they're doing for far less compensation.

 

[xj0hnx]

No your wrong, like I said before, my guy can dig the hole better faster and without as much sweat involved.
Go out in your backyard and find a place with some nice clay, I want a hole 10 feet long, 3 feet deep by 1 foot across with a slope of a 1/4 inch every 6 inches.
While your figuring how to stand in your started trench and angle your shovel, my guy is done with the hole.

You can go on and on about your wonder shoveler all you want but it isn't going to change the fact that it is a low skill job. Just about every shoveling technique can be covered in five minutes, beyond that it's strength, and endurance.

 

[CPA]

You. Have. Issues.

No, he's exactly right.

 

[hal2kilo]

Who's going to buy the f'n applesauce when nobody has any job or money to buy it?

CEO's are oneway diode mf'ers.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

And how do you suggest we do that?

First, we need to reduce the supply of labor by ending Global Labor Arbitrage. That means end foreign outsourcing by enacting a zero-dollar trade deficit policy using tariffs or an import credits system. Then we need to eliminate the H-1B and L-1 visa programs. Then we need to end illegal immigration, deport the illegals, and end legal immigration or at least reduce it to a trickle.

That will decrease the amount of labor in the supply-and-demand equation, allowing wages to rise.

Then we need to enact a policy of wealth redistribution to tax the wealthy at higher marginal rates and use that to promote economic development. Since the wealthy have essentially looted the lower classes over the past several decades, some sort of asset forfeiture might be an effective policy, such as collecting 5% of their wealth. (To paraphrase a character from a famous novel, you might envision the government giving money to the lower classes and saying, "It's not stolen, it's yours.")

Our society needs all sorts of other fixes as well. We have huge inefficiencies in the area of health care. (We need real socialized medicine which has proven to be less expensive and more efficient in other nations.) We have huge inefficiencies in the area of higher education where we are training huge excesses of people for non-existent jobs. (We need to close many undergraduate, graduate, and professional schools to reduce this sort of economic waste.)

I would also seek ways to increase the nation's rationality factor. (The rationality factor involves things that affect the economy but are not inherently economic issues such as crime rates, people having children they cannot afford to take care of, etc.)

 

[CPA]

One of the big issues is whether or not the CEOs are earning what they truly deserve or whether our society is structured in some sort of a way such that they are earning far, far more than what they deserve.

For example, if a great many MBAs could do just as good of a job as many CEOs yet happily do it for a mere pittance of $500,000/year, is it possible that many CEOs are thus overpaid? Are CEOs whose companies lose value overpaid?

CEO compensation as it stands today is obscene and is a reflection of some sort of huge inefficiency in the CEO market. Executive compensation needs to be scaled down dramatically for the good of shareholders and our society at large (allowing prices to decrease perhaps) and should be based somewhat on long-term performance.

So, who's going to determine what the "deserve" or what you "deserve"?

 

[CPA]

I didn't hear what he said, but from what you describe, I suspect that what he's really saying, is: "We need to restructure our nation's economy so that we produce more wealth and so that that wealth is more evenly distributed as opposed to the top 10% owning the vast majority of the wealth."

Coming from Michael Moore? Are you f'in kidding?

 

[JohnnyGage]

First, we need to reduce the supply of labor by ending Global Labor Arbitrage. That means end foreign outsourcing by enacting a zero-dollar trade deficit policy using tariffs or an import credits system. Then we need to eliminate the H-1B and L-1 visa programs. Then we need to end illegal immigration, deport the illegals, and end legal immigration or at least reduce it to a trickle.

That will decrease the amount of labor in the supply-and-demand equation, allowing wages to rise.

Then we need to enact a policy of wealth redistribution to tax the wealthy at higher marginal rates and use that to promote economic development. Since the wealthy have essentially looted the lower classes over the past several decades, some sort of asset forfeiture might be an effective policy, such as collecting 5% of their wealth. (To paraphrase a character from a famous novel, you might envision the government giving money to the lower classes and saying, "It's not stolen, it's yours.")

Our society needs all sorts of other fixes as well. We have huge inefficiencies in the area of health care. (We need real socialized medicine which has proven to be less expensive and more efficient in other nations.) We have huge inefficiencies in the area of higher education where we are training huge excesses of people for non-existent jobs. (We need to close many undergraduate, graduate, and professional schools to reduce this sort of economic waste.)

I would also seek ways to increase the nation's rationality factor. (The rationality factor involves things that affect the economy but are not inherently economic issues such as crime rates, people having children they cannot afford to take care of, etc.)

This same economic system works great in Venezuela and Cuba.... oh wait....

 

[StageLeft]

Well, what can I say, I guess I'm not getting my point across.
I already said I know your job was more then pushing a couple of buttons, but that it sure looked easy enough.
Being in the business, I have watched a hundred men come and go who all thought the same way you do

You intimated that I'm a man and I find that so flattering that I will grant you your point without any further friction whatsoever 🙂

College degrees are a penny-a-dozen today.

I know, but they are still something, even if many are toilet paper.

Construction is more of a skilled trade.

It is in many cases and these guys make ok money in many cases, too. Any necessary job that meaningfully and substantially improves year to year deserves--and typically earns--more money. A master electrician will make more than somebody driving a cab, as he should.

--

I am sure a lot of high level execs are useless, but many aren't. There are legitimate examples of a CEO increasing a company's revenue by literally billions of dollars, so paying a guy like that millions in compensation is a great ROI.

 

[CycloWizard]

That may be so, but you have to ask, "Why is so much labor available relative to jobs that supply-and-demand dictates such low wages?" Is it possible that certain political policies may result in artificially high supplies of labor relative to the demand for labor? Is it possible that one or both of our political parties supports "callous greed" in those regards?

Because government policy does not allow people and companies to agree on a working wage below the minimum wage. When wages plummet but the minimum wage increases, you get exactly what you see happening today.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Much of that involves being born into the right family with the kind of connections needed to set you up in that kind of a position. It also helps if they can send you to prep school and get you into Yale, etc.

much but not all.
life ain't fair. deal.

 

[CycloWizard]

Since the wealthy have essentially looted the lower classes over the past several decades...

Can you explain this? This is something I hear all the time but I really don't get it. How does wealth propagate from the person who makes $x at some arbitrary job but pays $0 in taxes (excluding sales tax) end up in the pocket of some rich guy outside of a mutually beneficial currency exchange?