A new Rocket attack from Gaza, not good news.

[Kappo]

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In terms of being a total pro-Israeli fan clubber, I don't think that can be classified as a Democratic or Republican trait, but rather its a hide bound belief that Israel should win
no matter how many other people are robbed and cheated.

But still in a larger sweep of world History, a mere 62 years is a very short time, and as I said before, until some balance of fairness is established, Israel will find no peace or acceptance in the mid-east.

So maybe we should be asking the larger question, how much longer can 5.5 Jews in Israel keep resisting the weight of 275 million Arabs they are angering with their behavior. In the larger sweep of history, its inevitable that the weight of oil money and Stateless terrorists will over run Israel if they can't find mid-east acceptableness now.

As an Israeli fan clubber, is that Jews being driven into the sea outcome what you want?

I don't care what the outcome is because I don't live there. I'm not "pro" anyone. We pretty much picked who we are backing so let them fight it out.

I CAN say that Israel's stated goal is not to wipe everyone who isn't like them off the face of the planet.

Say they give them EVERYTHING they ask for (which entails the death of every single Israli or conversion), what then? Peace? LOL. They will just ask for more. And more. And more.

Fact of the matter is that Israel has the means right now. If they were smart, they would just kick their asses into oblivion and exterminate the threat. Repeat in 20 years. Sucks to be on the losing side but, unlike the ultra-lib mindset, I realize that sometimes there are winners and sometimes there are losers. Get a helmet.

 

[nageov3t]

Does Jordan want the West Bank back?

no clue!

all this talk of "illegally" gotten territory seems pointless, though, if the victims of the "theft" don't want their property back.

 

[EagleKeeper]

does Egypt even want the Gaza Strip returned to them?

No way.

And is it interesting that the attack comes after an "aid" shipment arrives and is processed by Egypt.

 

[Patranus]

The TERRORISTS strike again.
*shocking*

It is quite clear which group doesn't want peace and why the USA must assist Israel in its embargo of Gazza.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Does Jordan want the West Bank back?

no clue!

all this talk of "illegally" gotten territory seems pointless, though, if the victims of the "theft" don't want their property back.

From some POV; Jordan and Egypt were caretakers; the land belonged to the Palestinians.

The fact that the Palestinians sided in attacks against Israel and were on the losing side gives carte blanche to forgive such trangressions and allow them to continue attacks without any responsiblity.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

no clue!

all this talk of "illegally" gotten territory seems pointless, though, if the victims of the "theft" don't want their property back.

If Egypt and Jordan got "their land" back how else would they distract the Muslim peoples in the Middle-East from the fact that they are ruled by repressive dictators, theocracies and monarchies? The whole point of this fiasco when you sit down and think about it is to keep people from realizing their misplaced anger. Especially when you consider the made up terms such as the state Palestine and the Palestinian people and their "plight" to further bolster the the distraction.

 

[Lemon law]

no clue!

all this talk of "illegally" gotten territory seems pointless, though, if the victims of the "theft" don't want their property back.

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In terms of the right to return, which Arafat refused to surrender, yes, the Palestinians do want their property back.

And to some extent, the Arab, Israeli, Palestinian conflict can be perceived differently in eyes of each observer.

Sadly, I think most pro-Israeli fan clubbers view it as a game like football or baseball, where you pick your favorite team, delight at the fact that your team is kicking ass, and soon, some whistle will blow or clock will run out saying game over. Israeli wins and that is the final outcome everyone accepts.

However that is not the way the real world works, the game never ends that way anymore.

So we might better ask, what should the goal be? And IMHO, the win win situation would be Israeli living in peace and acceptance in the mid-east, and that the Palestinians also get their own State.

But right now, in terms of that end goal, its now mainly Israel that is sowing the seeds for their own destruction, as Israeli defines the conflict with the Arabs as either we win and get it all or the Arabs lose all.

For the immediate short term future, any independent observer has to somewhat conclude Israeli is winning, but can anyone be so confident that the same can be said in the next 10, 20, 30, or 60 year time frame? If Israel succeeds in making everyone in the mid-east hate their guts by their arrogant behavior, Israel may rue the day when they find themselves in arena with equally well armed Arab States.

I submit finding Arab acceptance for an Israeli state in their midst is an already attainable better goal. And Israel may never again find itself in as good of negotiating position as they are now.

 

[dahunan]

Well, if no one was injured Israel should obviously

go in with tanks and destroy neighborhoods

use giant construction Cats and tear down the home where someone responsible may have been born and may no longer even live there

use all of their media influence to make sure the world knows that a rocket was fired and now since the rocket was fired ...

Israel has the right to kill kill kill and destroy their neighbors stuff and take more land and feel righteous as Gods Chosen people..

Hallelujah .. all praise to the chosen ones...

 

[Freshgeardude]

First of all, I love how LL ignored my post! HAHAHAHHAHA


secondly, in the treaty with egypt, israel gave back the sinai and offered gaza aswell, the egyptians took the sinai but let israel keep the gaza. ( they didnt want that mess, and israel got stuck with it)

also, in the treaty with jordan, jordan gave up all claims to the west bank.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Well, if no one was injured Israel should obviously

go in with tanks and destroy neighborhoods

use giant construction Cats and tear down the home where someone responsible may have been born and may no longer even live there

use all of their media influence to make sure the world knows that a rocket was fired and now since the rocket was fired ...

Israel has the right to kill kill kill and destroy their neighbors stuff and take more land and feel righteous as Gods Chosen people..

Hallelujah .. all praise to the chosen ones...

Did israel do that today? No they didnt, but what you like to ignore is when Israel did Operation Cast Lead, the WHOLE point of the mission was the stop missile fire that has been hitting israel for months. Months of complete non-retaliation.

Israel only (as accurately as possible) struck areas of DOCUMENTED fire AND key strategic points used by hamas and other terrorist organizations to smuggle weapons, build weapons, transfer weapons.


It is in no way Israel's fault Hamas are a bunch of pussy extremists who hide among crowds, fire rockets from apartment buildings, schools, mosques, and hospitals.


Did you forget that Hamas's main meeting area is in the basement of the main hospital of Gaza?

 

[dahunan]

Did israel do that today? No they didnt, but what you like to ignore is when Israel did Operation Cast Lead, the WHOLE point of the mission was the stop missile fire that has been hitting israel for months. Months of complete non-retaliation.

Israel only (as accurately as possible) struck areas of DOCUMENTED fire AND key strategic points used by hamas and other terrorist organizations to smuggle weapons, build weapons, transfer weapons.


It is in no way Israel's fault Hamas are a bunch of pussy extremists who hide among crowds, fire rockets from apartment buildings, schools, mosques, and hospitals.


Did you forget that Hamas's main meeting area is in the basement of the main hospital of Gaza?

I guess that makes up for the massive destruction Israel has done to its neighbors territory... nice of them to start trying to be precise instead of using those armor plated cats to destroy neighborhoods where TONS of NON PUSSY
INNOCENT people live

 

[Freshgeardude]

I guess that makes up for the massive destruction Israel has done to its neighbors territory... nice of them to start trying to be precise instead of using those armor plated cats to destroy neighborhoods where TONS of NON PUSSY
INNOCENT people live

oh? please show me how Israel marches right in, unprovoked into an area, take tanks and just mow right over whole neighborhoods.

And INNOCENT people? MY ASS.

You heard plenty of stories from gaza how people are not homeless after Operation Cast Lead. How israel destroyed their apartment buildings.

They are NOT INNOCENT if they allow terrorists to launch rockets from their balcony and do NOTHING.

They are NOT INNOCENT when they voted a TERRORIST organization into power.

They are NOT INNOCENT when they stand with their husbands on rooftops with their children to stop the fighter jets from dropping a bomb on a building.


As far as I see it, the people are NOT INNOCENT.

 

[Lemon law]

First of all, I love how LL ignored my post! HAHAHAHHAHA


secondly, in the treaty with egypt, israel gave back the sinai and offered gaza aswell, the egyptians took the sinai but let israel keep the gaza. ( they didnt want that mess, and israel got stuck with it)

also, in the treaty with jordan, jordan gave up all claims to the west bank.

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FGD, I did not ignore your post, I simply found it so one sides biased that it did not deserve a reply. And now you come back with more biased bullshit. Face the facts, Egypt did not want Gaza back because they correctly maintain they are not responsible for the fair treatment of the Palestinians, Israel is. And if Israel wants to make Gaza into a prison camp, not my words, that is a the recent words used by David Cameron of GB, its not a good thing for Israel. And the same thinking somewhat applies to Jordon, they may have ceded their claims to the West Bank, but they sure did not give the West Bank to Israel either.

Israel is now further from finding mid-east acceptance than they were in 1948. But now the tide is somewhat turning, as even the US Government is starting to realize present Israeli policy is unsustainable and is not worthy of supporting.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I guess that makes up for the massive destruction Israel has done to its neighbors territory... nice of them to start trying to be precise instead of using those armor plated cats to destroy neighborhoods where TONS of NON PUSSY
INNOCENT people live

These are the same NON PUSSY INNOCENT people that wanted to send suicide bombers into shpping malls with explosive backpacks.

Same people that want the destruction of their neighbor yet complain when their neighbor ignores them or treats them they way they act?

Those armor plated cats and such were also used by the Palestinians & co to try to destroy Israel completely.

Or has that slipped your mind.

Israeli response is kid gloves compared to what they could do and what was done to them.

 

[EagleKeeper]

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FGD, I did not ignore your post, I simply found it so one sides biased that it did not deserve a reply. And now you come back with more biased bullshit. Face the facts, Egypt did not want Gaza back because they correctly maintain they are not responsible for the fair treatment of the Palestinians, Israel is. And if Israel wants to make Gaza into a prison camp, not my words, that is a the recent words used by David Cameron of GB, its not a good thing for Israel. And the same thinking somewhat applies to Jordon, they may have ceded their claims to the West Bank, but they sure did not give the West Bank to Israel either.

Israel is now further from finding mid-east acceptance than they were in 1948. But now the tide is somewhat turning, as even the US Government is starting to realize present Israeli policy is unsustainable and is not worthy of supporting.

It was Egypt and company that triggered the problem by trying to destroy Israel. Now the Arabs want to wash their hands of the continuing fiasco and put the onus on Israel.

What about the responsiblity of the Palestinians themselves - they have for the past 30-40 years tried to do everything they could to ensure that they did not deserve any responsibilies for their actions and the Arab world agreed. Now that the Arab world (in the most part) has stopped attacking Israel; the Palestinians have taken up the banner.

Why is Israel responsible for the fair treatment of the Palestinians.
The Palestinians have shown that they do not want ot be treated fairly - they want it their way fair or not.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Well, if no one was injured Israel should obviously

go in with tanks and destroy neighborhoods

use giant construction Cats and tear down the home where someone responsible may have been born and may no longer even live there

use all of their media influence to make sure the world knows that a rocket was fired and now since the rocket was fired ...

Israel has the right to kill kill kill and destroy their neighbors stuff and take more land and feel righteous as Gods Chosen people..

Hallelujah .. all praise to the chosen ones...

Israel is not subscribing to the Christina philosophy of turn the cheek. They did that 5 times and what did it get them. Loss of life and no peace.

They subscribe to if you want to poke the tiger; be prepared for the result.
The Palestinians have always begged for forgiveness after they cause trouble and promised to behave.
What stands behind their promises - hot air.

 

[Lemon law]

oh? please show me how Israel marches right in, unprovoked into an area, take tanks and just mow right over whole neighborhoods.

And INNOCENT people? MY ASS.

You heard plenty of stories from gaza how people are not homeless after Operation Cast Lead. How israel destroyed their apartment buildings.

They are NOT INNOCENT if they allow terrorists to launch rockets from their balcony and do NOTHING.

They are NOT INNOCENT when they voted a TERRORIST organization into power.

They are NOT INNOCENT when they stand with their husbands on rooftops with their children to stop the fighter jets from dropping a bomb on a building.


As far as I see it, the people are NOT INNOCENT.

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When the Goldstone report, universally condemns Israel fr War crimes in Gaza, you can hardly call the Israeli people innocent either.

When Israel expelled the former Palestinians residents of the West Bank and stole their land, you can't call the Rest of the Israeli people innocent either.

I am just starting here, and I can find more and more links and facts and history to show Israel is rotten until the cows come home and still link in more.

That is exactly not the point, if we start with the correct facts, we come to the realization that Israel, the surrounding Arab States, and the Palestinian people are all behaving badly, and because one behaves badly, we have a synergistic effect, and we get even more reprehensible behavior on all sides.

The game you are playing FGD, is a futile attempt to say if the other sides behaves badly, therefore Israel is justified in behaving badly, when in fact the sum of any number of wrongs on all sides never adds up to a single right.

And since a rotten past can't be changed, we all need to find a way forward to a just peace instead.

 

[Freshgeardude]

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FGD, I did not ignore your post, I simply found it so one sides biased that it did not deserve a reply.
Really? I fail to see a one sided bias on FACTS. Proven information. which you want to ignore because it defends israel LOLOLOL

Israel is now further from finding mid-east acceptance than they were in 1948. But now the tide is somewhat turning, as even the US Government is starting to realize present Israeli policy is unsustainable and is not worthy of supporting.

Really? Is the US threatening to cut ties with israel or the PLO? I dont see israel's relationship getting any worse. I see it getting better

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD9HA7EJO0

And I see the PLO's relationship with the US getting worse, the longer they keep saying no to direct talks.

After the US, EU, Arab League and Israel all want direct talks, I think the world is starting to realize that the PLO doesnt want peace and they never have

 

[Pulsar]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In terms of the right to return, which Arafat refused to surrender, yes, the Palestinians do want their property back.

And to some extent, the Arab, Israeli, Palestinian conflict can be perceived differently in eyes of each observer.

Sadly, I think most pro-Israeli fan clubbers view it as a game like football or baseball, where you pick your favorite team, delight at the fact that your team is kicking ass, and soon, some whistle will blow or clock will run out saying game over. Israeli wins and that is the final outcome everyone accepts.

However that is not the way the real world works, the game never ends that way anymore.

So we might better ask, what should the goal be? And IMHO, the win win situation would be Israeli living in peace and acceptance in the mid-east, and that the Palestinians also get their own State.

But right now, in terms of that end goal, its now mainly Israel that is sowing the seeds for their own destruction, as Israeli defines the conflict with the Arabs as either we win and get it all or the Arabs lose all.

For the immediate short term future, any independent observer has to somewhat conclude Israeli is winning, but can anyone be so confident that the same can be said in the next 10, 20, 30, or 60 year time frame? If Israel succeeds in making everyone in the mid-east hate their guts by their arrogant behavior, Israel may rue the day when they find themselves in arena with equally well armed Arab States.

I submit finding Arab acceptance for an Israeli state in their midst is an already attainable better goal. And Israel may never again find itself in as good of negotiating position as they are now.

Wait, wut?

To which country do the palestinians belong who want their property back? Have those countries requested the land be returned?

 

[EagleKeeper]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When the Goldstone report, universally condemns Israel fr War crimes in Gaza, you can hardly call the Israeli people innocent either.

When Israel expelled the former Palestinians residents of the West Bank and stole their land, you can't call the Rest of the Israeli people innocent either.

I am just starting here, and I can find more and more links and facts and history to show Israel is rotten until the cows come home and still link in more.

That is exactly not the point, if we start with the correct facts, we come to the realization that Israel, the surrounding Arab States, and the Palestinian people are all behaving badly, and because one behaves badly, we have a synergistic effect, and we get even more reprehensible behavior on all sides.

The game you are playing FGD, is a futile attempt to say if the other sides behaves badly, therefore Israel is justified in behaving badly, when in fact the sum of any number of wrongs on all sides never adds up to a single right.

And since a rotten past can't be changed, we all need to find a way forward to a just peace instead.

The Goldstone reports was also admitted by the author to be incomplete and biased.


When an opponent behaves badly; you have two choices.
Ignore, beg for them to stop or respond.

Ignoring the Palestinians has not worked. - Suicide bombers come into your civilian areas
Asking them to stop has not worked (land for Peace!)

So it looks like respond to provocations is the only other option - Do you have another - the first two do not seem to work.

 

[Lemon law]

Excuse me Pulsar, who owns land? Short answer, people own land and not States. States are simply artificial constructs that by in large exist with the consent of the governed.

Its why Jordan did not own the West Bank, the Egyptians ceded Gaza to the fleeing Palestinians, and since it was the Palestinian people who got robbed, why do we assume Egypt, Jordon, the EU, or the USA can speak for them?

Which is the same answer I give to FGD.

Of course the Palestinians want peace, but until we start talking about the right to return, why should anyone expect the Palestinian people to accept a totally unfair and lopsided deal.

Maybe the Palestinian people do not have the military power to demand a fair deal, but they have a moral right that all fair minded people respect.

The reason Abbas is refusing direct talks is the fact that Israel has burned him in the past. The price of direct talks is a Israeli total settlement ban in the West Bank and East Jerusalem now set to expire in 9/2010. Talk is cheap, but when Israel talks and talks, while extending their control of lands they can never own, it gives Israel a huge incentive to stall and stall and stall.

There is no shortage of previous Annapolis talks to build on, but all Israel did is stall while extending its control of disputed lands. And even as Fatah has renounced violence as a means, Israel offered them nothing at Annapolis.

 

[Freshgeardude]

Excuse me Pulsar, who owns land? Short answer, people own land and not States. States are simply artificial constructs that by in large exist with the consent of the governed.

Its why Jordan did not own the West Bank, the Egyptians ceded Gaza to the fleeing Palestinians, and since it was the Palestinian people who got robbed, why do we assume Egypt, Jordon, the EU, or the USA can speak for them?

Which is the same answer I give to FGD.

Of course the Palestinians want peace, but until we start talking about the right to return, why should anyone expect the Palestinian people to accept a totally unfair and lopsided deal.

Maybe the Palestinian people do not have the military power to demand a fair deal, but they have a moral right that all fair minded people respect.

The reason Abbas is refusing direct talks is the fact that Israel has burned him in the past. The price of direct talks is a Israeli total settlement ban in the West Bank and East Jerusalem now set to expire in 9/2010. Talk is cheap, but when Israel talks and talks, while extending their control of lands they can never own, it gives Israel a huge incentive to stall and stall and stall.

There is no shortage of previous Annapolis talks to build on, but all Israel did is stall while extending its control of disputed lands. And even as Fatah has renounced violence as a means, Israel offered them nothing at Annapolis.

Israel gave abbas 6 months to come to the table. why should they extend it when NO progress was made in 6 months?

the US, EU and Arab league, all side with israel on this one. who are you buddies protecting you now?

Israel is not the one stalling here. Abbas is.

 

[Lemon law]

FGD says, "Israel is not the one stalling here. Abbas is." Somehow I and many others disagree.

But cheer up. I just found a link on Yahoo news that I will not post saying Obama is pressuring Abbas to resume direct talks.

And if Abbas resumes direct talks and Israel continues to settle on disputed territory
without getting real, its Abbas and not Israel who will win that argument.

In short it may turn out to be a two edged sword, that can burn Israel or Abbas if and when direct talks proceed.